Crown

Haven't you noticed that 'face lift' never goes beyond 'plastic parts'  i.e.  bumpers and lights .  Short version ( )  -  what ,  2 door coupe , next '928'  based on Panamera  ??

Panamera is neither ' HUGE '   nor  ' here I come '  type of car .

Apparently I and most potential german customers I know have a different opinion. 

Well, for Dubai, the Panamera may be just be right size. 

Look at these photos in comparison to the 997 Turbo. 

Also look at Walter Röhrl, he is over 1,90 m.

Again: this is only about size perception, compared to other sedans of its class it is not bigger.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

We have had this discussion several times over, but honestly in the U.S. the Panamera is not a "here I come car" at all.  Its simple lines and clean design make it look elegant and refined, even compared to Mercedes or Lexus.  And it actually looks small compared to many other cars on the road here.  The other day I noticed a Porsche looking car coming toward me in traffic, and my first thought was the car looked very low and sleek compared to the traffic around it.  Only when it passed did I recognize it as a Panamera.

Ferraris, Astons and Corvettes are still the "look at me" cars around here. 

So let me get it right: a US CEO could drive in a Panamera to his office without drawing too much attention ?

I personally know two businessmen who passed on the Panamera because they didn't want to draw too much attention to them, especially in these times.

One drives a BMW 7 series, the other one a Cayenne.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

This pic. and the one above are taken in Wiesbaden , Germany , where ,too, Panamera does not look HUGE compared to other cars on the street(s) , but quite opposite . Here I use Wonderbars words , very low and sleek  .

Listen, I don't know where you've taken these photos but I see the Panamera almost every day in comparison to other cars. It is a HUGE looking car. Even the photo you posted proves that but maybe my 175% vision sharpness just left me. 

I'm not sure I actually understand your "outrage" with me saying that the Panamera is huge ? For some markets, this is actually a good thing.

In Germany, the Panamera has several "problems":

1. for business owners/CEOs, this car is too showing off in the current financial situation

2. for families, the car has only 4 seats and not a lot of luggage room

3. for sportscar lovers, the Panamera is too big and heavy

4. for women, the Panamera is too big

Most Porsche lovers over here buy a 911 and get a BMW or Audi as a family car. For most Germans, the only real Porsche is the 911 and it changes very slowly. The Cayenne has gained a lot of respect but its public reputation and perception is pretty bad right now.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

I think many CEOs in the U.S. now would pay attention to any luxury car he/she drives to work.  The choice is not about the Panamera, it is about perception of extravagance in a rough economy.  If a CEO arrives in his black S class Mercedes, he/she is going to be noticed. 

But I know two CEO's of large companies here who drive what they want regardless.  One drives a Murcielago, and the other drives a Panamera Turbo.  It is all about knowing your company and its context. 

I do think though that--at least on the east coast of the U.S.--CEOs are more comfortable in black luxury sedans like Mercedes, Lexus or Cadillac.  But this is more because Porsches are more known as performance cars, not luxury cars.  More traditional CEOs want to feel pampered and luxurious, and this is not (and should not be) Porsche's brand.

But let's don't get stuck in the CEO segment.  My local dealer just sold his ninth Panamera in less than 3 months, and none has gone to a traditional CEO.  They have been bought by either long time Porsche customers, or long time sports car enthusiasts.  The most recent sale(two days ago)--a silver Turbo with ceramic brakes, Burmeister sound sytem, special expresso leather, etc., etc--went to a BMW X5M owner who just loves cars.  He traded in his new X5M after having it only nine months, and bought a car with a sticker price of over $170,000 U.S.  This is crazy money, but it is there, and if you have it, flaunt it no matter what the public thinks...

My local Porsche dealer can hardly move the Panamera off the floor. There are tons of used and new Panamera available for immediate delivery at German dealers.

Everybody seems to like the Panamera but when it comes to buying one... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 Ok, this is my humble middle class perspective:

If the Panamera doesn't sell well in this climate it's not because it's too flashy or huge, but because it's a) a Porsche after all (and a Porsche is perceived as an unnecessary luxury good) and b) bloody expensive. BMW, Merc and Audi don't play in the same perceived class as anyone can buy a 1series, A-class, A3 nowadays.

There's nothing humble about a S-Class or 7-series, these cars are huge as well- especially the new 7-series looks massive in real life. So if you really want to go in stealth mode you have to buy a 5 series/A6/E-Class.

RC, maybe you should buy a second-hand Panamera next year and put a VW badge on it. Just say it's the new Passat CC or whatever it's called. 

Tim

Now you just made my point: it is a Porsche AND looking huge. The BMW 7 series is "just" looking huge, it is no Porsche. 

Bloody expensive ? Right. Still: the dealer cut me a superb deal, so I could have bought it. I suppose it is just the right car at the wrong time. Maybe you can agree with this. 

My next Porsche will be a 991. Haven't decided which one yet. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 RC,

991 Turbo?

 What's going on in Germany RC? sounds like climate communism to me. I have never bought a car (even today) guided by what people think.  I don't know of anyone in the USA that has been given a dirty look for driving any of our huge SUVs. All the Panameras I have seen were driven by women. Maybe is an European thing.

nina:

 What's going on in Germany RC? sounds like climate communism to me. I have never bought a car (even today) guided by what people think.  I don't know of anyone in the USA that has been given a dirty look for driving any of our huge SUVs. All the Panameras I have seen were driven by women. Maybe is an European thing.

It is mostly a German thing but it happens in other european countries too I'm afraid. The smaller the town you live in, the worse it gets because everyone knows you and the kids usually go to a local school. Most of their classmates are driving around in a Volkswagen, not a Porsche. People over here started to blame the "rich" for almost everything, starting with global warming up to rising oil (fuel) prices. I don't consider myself rich, I still have to work hard for the money each and every day and I couldn't afford to stop working but people usually don't see the work, they just see the cars and the house. Things are even worse since the worldwide financial crisis, everyone here blames the "rich", whatever this means.

A mother of one of my son's friend asked my wife to tell my son to stop telling stories about the Bugatti Veyron and other expensive cars. The thing is: my son, he is 6 years old, has a dream: a Bugatti Veyron. He just knows that this is the fastest car on earth, nothing special, a kids thing and my son just loves to rave about it. We don't have a Bugatti Veyron. Apparently this is already enough to provoke people, this is unbelievable. My son luckily chose his own consequence out of this, he doesn't want to play with that kid anymore. 

I also blame my wife for this: she is way too friendly to people, it is her way. She invites people to our home, she organizes fun stuff for the kids, she tries to help other parents with her advice (she is a physician) and so on.  My wife always thinks that people appreciate that friendliness but sooner or later, she gets proof that they don't. 

Btw: it really depends where you're living in Germany, I think the same is valid for the US.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

artur777:

 RC,

 991 Turbo?

Not sure yet. Maybe "just" a 991 Cab because I would need to share it with my wife. We want to have two family cars only, the X5 M and a Porsche. A 991 Turbo would be too much for my wife and she wants a Cabriolet. 

The decision will be taken when my 997 Turbo lease runs out next year, the M3 Cab of course has to go.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

991 Turbo Cab:-)))

fast as Turbo

nice as Cab 

RC,

in small towns people don't look wide, they are limited with their life understanding - they prefer to blame and not to work themselves. Its always easy to live in such a way.

in big cities the culture is another - work hard, do your best, earn your money and spend them as you wish

in our city we see a lot of luxurious cars and no one is blaming about it because its normal situation when a person earns money he buy himself the car he can afford...

 Too bad RC. It's good to dream specially when you are young. This climate fascism is ruining a lot of free societies. Maybe we are not experiencing it yet. 

It's bad when we can trust our neighbors. It's also bad when success is criticized and not encouraged. If I see you drive a great car because of your accomplishments I should want  to emulate them.

Well, I recently heard a "joke" (well, not really) from one of my (successful) customers who runs his own business.

In the past, when a neighbor saw that his neigbhor bought a new car, this neighbor tried to work more and harder to be able to buy such a car too.

Nowadays, when a neigbhor sees that his neighbor bought a new car, he thinks of ways how to burn the neighbor's house down and with it the new car.

This may sound harsh but it explains the climate a little bit.

I don't know what happened, I still blame the german media for spreading general envy and it got worse after the unification with former East Germany.

East Germany is actually a very good example: many people over there are driving nice cars, they find any kind of food without problems, they can travel freely around the world and they have lots of goods to buy. Now tell me: why does the former socialist/communist party who actually ruined East Germany still get the most votes over there ?

There is a similar development in other former eastern block countries too. My guess is: many people can't cope with "capitalism" (we call it "free market economy" over here ), they can't cope with the fact that there are so many things to buy and they can't cope with the fact that SOME people actually can buy ALL these nice things.

I have customers who drive a Mercedes E-class or a BMW 5 series and they're still ranting about the "rich". They don't realize that in some parts of this world, THEY would be considered rich as well.

Our society works as long as somebody doesn't stand out too much. How competition can ruin relationships proves my 9-year old daugther right now: she is one of the best four in her class, a class of 26 pupils. These four will make the transfer to a higher school (Gymnasium) without problems, the other 22 very likely will transfer to "lower" schools called Realschule and Hauptschule over here. Since the parents of some of my daugther's friends realized that their kids won't "make it", the relationships between them and us have cooled down, they usually refuse to bring their kids to our house anymore with dumb excuses. My daugther tells us that her friends want to come but the parents told them "not to waste time with somebody who is going to be a Bonze" (Bonze is the german word for "filthy rich"). Trust me, we are german upper middle-class, not even close to rich but the perception is different because most of these people are workers with a low income.

It is sad, very sad but like one of our doctor friends said: just avoid making friends with these people and you're going to be fine. Not easy if your kids are in school and they have friends there. I suppose it is going to be better when the kids are older. Hopefully.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Then wait till the kids grow up and for the time being why not drive this and be humble + you'll be able to pick a 991 turbo too in the future with extra cash in hand

BiTurbo:

Then wait till the kids grow up and for the time being why not drive this and be humble + you'll be able to pick a 991 turbo too in the future with extra cash in hand

 

Are you nuts ? People would keep their kids completely away from mine if I would drive THIS one. 

In my neighborhood, you need to drive this:

Or this ("typical" woman's car in my neighborhood):

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Well, I recently heard a "joke" (well, not really) from one of my (successful) customers who runs his own business.

In the past, when a neighbor saw that his neigbhor bought a new car, this neighbor tried to work more and harder to be able to buy such a car too.

Nowadays, when a neigbhor sees that his neighbor bought a new car, he thinks of ways how to burn the neighbor's house down and with it the new car.

This may sound harsh but it explains the climate a little bit.

I don't know what happened, I still blame the german media for spreading general envy and it got worse after the unification with former East Germany.

East Germany is actually a very good example: many people over there are driving nice cars, they find any kind of food without problems, they can travel freely around the world and they have lots of goods to buy. Now tell me: why does the former socialist/communist party who actually ruined East Germany still get the most votes over there ?

There is a similar development in other former eastern block countries too. My guess is: many people can't cope with "capitalism" (we call it "free market economy" over here ), they can't cope with the fact that there are so many things to buy and they can't cope with the fact that SOME people actually can buy ALL these nice things.

I have customers who drive a Mercedes E-class or a BMW 5 series and they're still ranting about the "rich". They don't realize that in some parts of this world, THEY would be considered rich as well.

Our society works as long as somebody doesn't stand out too much. How competition can ruin relationships proves my 9-year old daugther right now: she is one of the best four in her class, a class of 26 pupils. These four will make the transfer to a higher school (Gymnasium) without problems, the other 22 very likely will transfer to "lower" schools called Realschule and Hauptschule over here. Since the parents of some of my daugther's friends realized that their kids won't "make it", the relationships between them and us have cooled down, they usually refuse to bring their kids to our house anymore with dumb excuses. My daugther tells us that her friends want to come but the parents told them "not to waste time with somebody who is going to be a Bonze" (Bonze is the german word for "filthy rich"). Trust me, we are german upper middle-class, not even close to rich but the perception is different because most of these people are workers with a low income.

It is sad, very sad but like one of our doctor friends said: just avoid making friends with these people and you're going to be fine. Not easy if your kids are in school and they have friends there. I suppose it is going to be better when the kids are older. Hopefully.

So Christian, still considering a move to Florida...
 

Slow In, Fast Out

 RC,

I see the situation - funny and sad at the same time

usually you can get your children to a private school to avoid them from all this atavisms...

RC:

I don't know what happened, I still blame the german media for spreading general envy and it got worse after the unification with former East Germany.

East Germany is actually a very good example: many people over there are driving nice cars, they find any kind of food without problems, they can travel freely around the world and they have lots of goods to buy. Now tell me: why does the former socialist/communist party who actually ruined East Germany still get the most votes over there ?

 

But does some of this east-west envy boil down to the large sums of financial aids given to the east after unification. I remember living in west-Germany (Hannover) area and many were upset with the east receiving huge sums to upgrade infrastructure, electric generation plants, city upgrades and so on.... It is essentially west-germany's money that upgraded the east, these upgrades were sometimes many times nicer/modern than need be.

I think both your examples could be linked somewhat to this money shift within the country....
 

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
_____________________________________________________________________
1984 BMW 323i 5spd 2.3L 141 hp (105 kW) More door. Black on black (parting out) 
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

1. moving to Florida would be great but without a job and not so much money ? I don't think this can work.

2. private school costs around 2100 EUR per month for both kids, can't afford it, sorry (another problem is that the private school is not too difficult and the exams still need to be done at a state institution if you get my point)

.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 RC South Florida has great schools. The job market is in the tank in many industries. I do not know what you do but it is a growing business area. Also you can drive whatever car you want and no one will want to burn your house plus you can drive 365 days a year. No need for snow tires.

I guess  if i drove my GX470 in Germany I might not survive.

nina:

 RC South Florida has great schools. The job market is in the tank in many industries. I do not know what you do but it is a growing business area. Also you can drive whatever car you want and no one will want to burn your house plus you can drive 365 days a year. No need for snow tires.

I guess  if i drove my GX470 in Germany I might not survive.

Thanks. I'm afraid my profession requires a re-examination in the US, so the chances are slim. Even if I'd do it, which takes a lot of time and learning, I would still not earn the money I earn over here. My wife is a different story, she's a physician but same thing here, she needs to get her license for the US which is a very lengthy and painful process. So the chances are slim I'm afraid. Maybe after we retire...

Don't worry, Lexus = Toyota isn't considered a luxury brand over here, actually no japanese car is a problem here. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Misha011:

Haven't you noticed that 'face lift' never goes beyond 'plastic parts'  i.e.  bumpers and lights .  Short version ( )  -  what ,  2 door coupe , next '928'  based on Panamera  ??

Panamera is neither ' HUGE '   nor  ' here I come '  type of car .

very nice in live street

is it matt black right?

 I'd rather say it is black...covered in salt. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Well, I recently heard a "joke" (well, not really) from one of my (successful) customers who runs his own business.

In the past, when a neighbor saw that his neigbhor bought a new car, this neighbor tried to work more and harder to be able to buy such a car too.

There is a similar development in other former eastern block countries too. My guess is: many people can't cope with "capitalism"Nowadays, when a neigbhor sees that his neighbor bought a new car, he thinks of ways how to burn the neighbor's house down and with it the new car.

[...]

East Germany is actually a very good example: many people over there are driving nice cars, they find any kind of food without problems, they can travel freely around the world and they have lots of goods to buy. Now tell me: why does the former socialist/communist party who actually ruined East Germany still get the most votes over there ?

I still think that Germany is one of the countries with highest obedience to authority. East Germany´s citizens had to endure a government-controlled lifestyle for four decades and what is missing now is the political or social bracket that holds people together. I believe that most of them do not know what to do with their life. On top of that, they have been fed an entirely different understanding about wealth in those socialist decades.

I have visited several regions in Eastern Germany in recent years and a huge percentage of industrial sites have been closed down. Imagine if 2/3rds to 3/4th of your city´s enterprises are closed down, there simply is no chance for a promising career. While several villages appear serene and idyllic, there is no work available whatsoever. The vast majority of friends between 18 and 35 have moved somewhere else, leaving the family behind. I have even met people in their late 50ies that endure a travel of 1400 km each week between their workplace in the South-West and their home in the East of the country. Fortunately, my friends and relatives are employed as they are skilled workers or academics. To be honest, I would have to think twice to move there despite my historical connections.

RC:

It is sad, very sad but like one of our doctor friends said: just avoid making friends with these people and you're going to be fine. Not easy if your kids are in school and they have friends there. I suppose it is going to be better when the kids are older. Hopefully.

My circle of friends changed / increased immensely when I attained the Gymnasium and i assume so will your daughter´s. That´s a sad story that parents refrain their children to play with others for a matter of wealth.

This is still surprising to hear it as I never experience those deprecative talks about the rich in my surrounding and region... maybe I am not rich enough.

andrea , it looks matt black (and very nice) to me too .