Crown

Wonderbar:

"The US is actually a good market too. People WANT to show off and I think the Panamera is a great car for showing off"--RC.

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RC, I certainly respect your views, and your dedication to this site, but I am a bit offended by the remark above.  From time to time on these forums there have been comments made (I think casually and without malice) that are derogatory to groups of people.  Thousands of people in the U.S.--me included--do not buy cars to show off, but because we love sport cars.  Sure there are people in the U.S. that do want to show off, but that's true for the rest of the world as well.  A comment as broad as "the U.S. is a good market..because...people want to show off" perpetrates a generality. It falls also into the category that everyone in the U.S. wants comfort and soft brakes.  There are well over 50,000 people in the Porsche Club of America who might disagree. 

There have also been comments (not by you) about cars looking like a "ricer", or about the emerging Asian market, that imply the chinese have bad taste or are nouveau riche.  I have traveled extensively to China over the years, and surely there are exceptions, but I found the people there wonderfully friendly and caring. 

LIke Toula's dad wisely said in My Big Fat Greek Wedding, there is no need to compare apples to oranges because "We all fruit".

 

Not defending RC here, but I think he was doing what I often do. 

Boiling down what may need aparagraph into 1 line and if you have read what has already been said you see it in the proper perspective. This board is like a running conversation. You need to know the people and the previous discussions to keep up.

 In fact I already posted the inescapable point about people buying the Cayenne V6 in more numbers than the other version combined in most sales reports in the US. Why didn't they buy the Toerag, why did Porsche even build the underpowered V6?

The answer is simple, so that the owners could drive a "Porsche".

Why does ferrari limit production?????

It's all about status, exclusivity, name-dropping, all synonyms for showing off  - MONEY.

I could write all day on this, but go into any appliance store and look at the refrigerators - does the signature series keep food any longer than the regular non-badged frig.? 

Is a bed at the Westin any better for sleeping than the Motel 6?

Very few people look objectively at products for their true value or benefit, most are swayed by status

Not defending RC here, but I think he was doing what I often do.

.... and that makes him , and you too , right and decent / correct  ??

 In this case - Yes.

What case ??   You've missed the point completely .

what is your point and how is it adding to the discussion on the US market?  

RC, I certainly respect your views, and your dedication to this site, but I am a bit offended by the remark above.  From time to time on these forums there have been comments made (I think casually and without malice) that are derogatory to groups of people.  Thousands of people in the U.S.--me included--do not buy cars to show off, but because we love sport cars.  Sure there are people in the U.S. that do want to show off, but that's true for the rest of the world as well.  A comment as broad as "the U.S. is a good market..because...people want to show off" perpetrates a generality. It falls also into the category that everyone in the U.S. wants comfort and soft brakes.  There are well over 50,000 people in the Porsche Club of America who might disagree. 

There have also been comments (not by you) about cars looking like a "ricer", or about the emerging Asian market, that imply the chinese have bad taste or are nouveau riche.  I have traveled extensively to China over the years, and surely there are exceptions, but I found the people there wonderfully friendly and caring. 

LIke Toula's dad wisely said in My Big Fat Greek Wedding, there is no need to compare apples to oranges because "We all fruit".

Sydney, I hope this didn't start with me getting a X5 M and selling my Cayenne Turbo S ? 

Just kidding...

1. English isn't my mother language, so maybe things sometimes sound different than intended. It is also important to follow such discussions from DAY 1 and POST 1 and things may sound a little bit different.

2. "ricer-ish" was actually expressing a japanese look, not a chinese one and it is a common expression used by car fans around the world. How about "Bimmer" ? Should I feel offended by it ?

3. Americans love to show off and this doesn't have to be something bad. I mean look at the SEMA show, we have our own "tuning" shows over here but you'll never see the stuff you see at SEMA over here. You should also check some US car forums and while we at Rennteam or some European car forums are discussing about prices, new cars, technology, 50% of the posts in US car forums are about rims, tuning and body kits. Again: this isn't something bad, this is just reality.

4. why do you think companies like Techart, Gemballa or other Tuners have so much success in the US ? Much more than in their home country ?

5. the US is THE inventor of showing off and I'm not sure I understand why you feel offended. Of course Miami, Las Vegas, New York, Los Angeles, Hollywood, etc etc. etc. are just by mistake in the US and people living there are very modest regarding their lifestyle.

Tell me: did you de-badge your Cayenne Turbo S ? Because if you didn't, you're showing off...according to non-written European laws.

C'mon Sydney, of course not all ALL Americans are showing off but it is part of reality that MANY Americans do and some are even proud of that. I wish I could show-off in Germany but it is hardly possible without p.ss.ng off friends, neighbors and customers.

Let me put it this way: you're not the "typical" American and I'm not the "typical" German. Satisfied ?! 

--
 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 I don't worry too much about American's showing off.. I worry more about the German mentality of not doing something because of what the neighbors think.... There is a history to that! 

Thanks RC, enough said.  I apologize if I overstated the issue.

Regarding my TTS, I did order it de-badged.  I like the cleaner, more understated look, and I also noted yours and others' good counsel that a TTS badge might draw unnecessary attention in Europe where I drove it for several months... 

cnc:

 I don't worry too much about American's showing off.. I worry more about the German mentality of not doing something because of what the neighbors think.... There is a history to that! 

Well...I won't argue on this one but trust me, you're welcome to be a foreigner (Germans are actually more friendly to foreigners than to their own   but damn...if you drive a Cayenne, you're in trouble.

Seriously: I think other countries have similar problems, it really depends on where you live. The problem in Germany is that a lot of people are pre-occupied with politics and the environment. What the peace/"anti-Pershing" and anti-nuclear power movement was in the past, is now the environmental "green" movement and Attac.

I read a post on a US forum that somebody was afraid to show up in a X5 M at work because his collegues and even his boss are driving lame cars like mid-class Toyotas and Honda Civics. So there seems to be a problem even in the US but I suppose it depends on the region too. I can't imagine that somebody actually cares about somebody driving a Cayenne in Miami or Beverly Hills.

It depends on the city and region where you live in Germany.

My "problem" is that half of the neighborhood is lower mid-class and most of the parents of my kids' friends and class mates too. This creates certain problems which are difficult to describe (I tried but apparently some people have a tough time to understand ).

To make it short: you can't be a mouse, living in a cage with cats.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Germans are actually more friendly to foreigners than to their own   but damn...if you drive a Cayenne, you're in trouble.

I lived more than 3 years in Germany and I totally second that.  By the way I keep fond memories from this country that I love...

RC:

cnc:

 I don't worry too much about American's showing off.. I worry more about the German mentality of not doing something because of what the neighbors think.... There is a history to that! 

Seriously: I think other countries have similar problems, it really depends on where you live.

It depends on the city and region where you live in Germany.

To make it short: you can't be a mouse, living in a cage with cats.  

A couple of  years ago, in the province of Quebec, people were distributing flyers that asked "Have you spit on an SUV today?" so yes, other countries or other regions have similar problems.

It's too bad but it certainly dampens the pleasure of driving when you constantly get the one-finger salute. Kind of makes you self-conscious after a while 

Slow In, Fast Out

^

 Je me souviens!!!!

RC:

.... C'mon Sydney, of course not all ALL Americans are showing off but it is part of reality that MANY Americans do and some are even proud of that. I wish I could show-off in Germany but it is hardly possible without p.ss.ng off friends, neighbors and customers.

....................................

.... Seriously: I think other countries have similar problems, it really depends on where you live. The problem in Germany is that a lot of people are pre-occupied with politics and the environment. What the peace/"anti-Pershing" and anti-nuclear power movement was in the past, is now the environmental "green" movement and Attac.

Well, some people in the USA want us to become "more Euorpean" in our approach to life, so as to save us from ourselves.  I see a common approach from these Americans and their general attitudes and from those Germans with whom you are annoyed.

My observation is that  the leftward drift in politics on both sides of the Atlantic (your side is further along) features political thought which is primarily based on the transformation of envy into a virtue.  Lots of mental energy is expended by the meddlesome to construct moralistic flights of fancy that cap down on achievement or excoriate winners of competitions.  They argue for redirecting the spoils of life to the truculent, the whiners, and the politically connected.  I find it all rather disgusting.

Surely you've experienced situations in life where "the new guy" is working hard and doing well only to be told by others in the group that he had better slow down and quit making everyone else look bad.  It's super common in the trade union environment over here and is sometimes enforced by threat of physical violence.

But, that is all "lower class" stuff when one talks about intra-union behavior.  What about people who think of themselves as higher class, yet have the same attitudes?  If it weren't so bad for America's zeitgeist, it would be amusing.  But, since one can't escape these people, better to make a little fun at their expense.

Here is a satirical web site that I find particularly amusing:  http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/

It is written by a drop-out PhD candidate in the humanities that pokes fun at his own cohort.  Have fun!

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

W8MM:

What about people who think of themselves as higher class, yet have the same attitudes?  If it weren't so bad for America's zeitgeist, it would be amusing.  But, since one can't escape these people, better to make a little fun at their expense.

Here is a satirical web site that I find particularly amusing:  http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/

It is written by a drop-out PhD candidate in the humanities that pokes fun at his own cohort.  Have fun!

Thanks for the link. Having studied in creative fields, I can attest that a certain intellectual and stylistical coherence can be found within any group, no matter how creative they are. The really forwarding people did not necessarily tick all those boxes.

I do believe that the reason and outcome of the above mentioned Zeitgeist is different for the respective countries, as is the reason and outcome for materialistic orientation as well.

W8MM:

.

 

 

My observation is that  the leftward drift in politics on both sides of the Atlantic (your side is further along) features political thought which is primarily based on the transformation of envy into a virtue.  Lots of mental energy is expended by the meddlesome to construct moralistic flights of fancy that cap down on achievement or excoriate winners of competitions.  They argue for redirecting the spoils of life to the truculent, the whiners, and the politically connected.  I find it all rather disgusting.

Surely you've experienced situations in life where "the new guy" is working hard and doing well only to be told by others in the group that he had better slow down and quit making everyone else look bad.  It's super common in the trade union environment over here and is sometimes enforced by threat of physical violence.

 

There may be some of that but you need to take off those pearlescent glasses Mike. What you describe is some of the democrat activists, hillary supporters in the last election.

But that is not the reality.

The so-called winners in the US for quite some time are not producers of wealth or goods. Simply well connected crooks who live off the few productive left in the middle class and the inheritance of infrastructure from the greatest generation, rigging the game as it suits them.

The wall street IB's, the hedge fund investors, and a whole class of so-called Real Estate entrepreneurs. Mortgage brokers and the like.

All the investment houses on Wall street should have been dismantled, the large banks like Citigroup, B of A, many more should have been broken up. AIG, freddy, fannie, the mortgage insurers, the list goes on............................

They ruined the country in their avarice and when it blew up did they lose, did they pay a price?

NOPE, they changed the rules, got mark to market suspended, got hundreds of billions thrown onto their balance sheets in preferred share buys by Uncle Sam.

Hundreds of thousands of GROSSLY over paid hacks should be looking for productive work, not getting bonus'es paid for by the tax payer and by people with savings accounts.

The Nymex should not even exist, nor should the commodities trading pits.

If these "winners" would invest their money in productive assets, like capital machinery that would employ people and produce somehing of value then hooray, BUT NO they want their 35% return from speculative trading by hedge funds.

If these people were engaged in wealth creation then manufacturing employment numbers would not be shrinking every month. and not be a fraction of what it once was. 

Very few winners in the US these days, just lots of people good at playing a game.

racerx:

Very few winners in the US these days, just lots of people good at playing a game.

That about sums it up. The real winners are sitting in oil rich countries buying our companies for a bargain due to the crisis. And in the producing countries like China.

It's time for new ideas.

So, apart from China being a possible market, how about Russia and Eastern Europe?

When I was in Bucharest last year, my jaw dropped to the floor. I saw more Ferrari's, Lamborgini's and BMW X6's in a week than I had seen in a year in the Netherlands.

Joost:

So, apart from China being a possible market, how about Russia and Eastern Europe?

When I was in Bucharest last year, my jaw dropped to the floor. I saw more Ferrari's, Lamborgini's and BMW X6's in a week than I had seen in a year in the Netherlands.

Lots of people in Eastern Europe lost a lot of money during the financial crisis but besides this fact, Romanians and even Russians aren't too much into sedans, especially because of the bad streets over there. They love SUVs and expensive sports cars.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Stop picking on me guys!

RC knows Romania very well indeed

Joost, you were here and didn't let me know You missed a Scuderia ride on a pretty mountain road

BTW, RC any plans for a re-visit here?

RC, guess you're right. Hadn't thought of that.

Pentium, I did post a thread back then, about what to do in Bucharest. Too bad! Well, there'll probably be a another chance, as the company I work for has a department in Bucharest. I'll definately let you know! ;-)

Pentium:

Stop picking on me guys!

RC knows Romania very well indeed

Joost, you were here and didn't let me know You missed a Scuderia ride on a pretty mountain road

BTW, RC any plans for a re-visit here?

Well, maybe in the X5 M this summer ?  I haven't been to Romania for almost 8 years now when I had to rush over for a medical emergency of a good friend.
Worked there for 7 years during the Ceausescu time and some time after, was an interesting time I wouldn't want to miss.

Un an nou fericit pentru tine si toata familia !

Salutari din Germania.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

I can't wait to meet you guys!

Sarbatori fericite si tie RC