Crown

intouch1:

Mike S:

Gnil:

intouch1:

the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.

It gets ridicoulous . GT3 RS in the US : just over $ 140.000  . In Switzerland : $ 215'000 !!!!

It is just not acceptable anymore !!!

 

Don't get me started. Over here it's around $290,000

 

same here 300 effing % import on cars above 2 litres.

But he difference between US prices and Swiss prices are not the tax ( here the car is taxed at 7.6 % ) So it is the difference on Porsches benefits margins that I find not acceptable

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

You can't compare US and Euro prices. Markets are different, the "real" parity USD/EUR is actually 1:1 and of course the prices in the US are without tax (usually in the 6-9% range). There are many other things to consider, so comparing prices isn't really helping.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 congrats christian! great choice, great car and great color combo!

Mike S:

Congratulations RC! It will be nice family transport. I never thought I would see the day that you would completely switch over to BMW's

 Same here Mike .  Porsche should listen.

you mean VW should listen ?

There are movements between products in all lines of business. It is very normal and expected. Now, just because a couple of Cayenne owners  or perhaps 3 or 4 here went to BMW, I don't think Porsche management will not sleep well tonight or perhaps cancel their Chistmas

I am sure there are also people moving from BMW to Porsche and Audi and Mercedes all the time and vice versa of course.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

we are not just porsche-buying people. we are car-nuts with a very high porsche loyalty-factor.

it's very different from a manufacturer to lose a sale of a unit or to use their hardcore followers. i view the hardcore aficionados more as brand ambassadors.

while i talked many a friend into a 911 i now find myself talking them into an X 5/6 M instead of cayenne or cayenne 2.

i have also been approached by many acquaintances as to why i switched to a beamer.....

Personally, I wouldn't buy either a Cayenne or a Panamera because I believe that for this type of cars there is better value around. And this in spite of the fact that I've been a Porsche (sportscar) owner for many years now. But this not negative for Porsche because there are a few thousand buyers every year who think otherwise.

Car enthusiasts and car-nuts do not normally enthuse and get excited about SUVs and big saloons anyway. So, the decision process in this segment  has little to do with passion and loyalty.

RC:

If you think there stories are exaggerated, they aren't. I shouldn't care too much about what other people say but like I said, I earn my money in a very "sensitive" social environment and most of my kids' friends and class mates have parents who drive around in a VW Passat or Nissan Micra. The most expensive car among these people is a BMW Z4.

You could send your kids to a more exclusive private school..

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

intouch1:

we are not just porsche-buying people. we are car-nuts with a very high porsche loyalty-factor.

it's very different from a manufacturer to lose a sale of a unit or to use their hardcore followers. i view the hardcore aficionados more as brand ambassadors.

while i talked many a friend into a 911 i now find myself talking them into an X 5/6 M instead of cayenne or cayenne 2.

i have also been approached by many acquaintances as to why i switched to a beamer.....

 

Very well said, my thoughts too exactly.

@John H: we have two kids. Private school (lessons mostly in English language, which is actually a good thing) would be slightly over 2000 EUR per month for both kids. Unfortunately the private school over here is ONE school for all, meaning that bad pupils are joining the same classes as good pupils. Since the teachers need to take care of ALL of them, the bad pupils actually drag the whole knowledge level of their class down the drain. I wouldn't really care because my kids are good in school and they would probably be the best in these classes but another problem is the fact that the final school exam is a STATE exam at the standard of state schools, in this case higher eduction schools. If the private school doesn't keep up with state schools, my kids would finally fail miserably because their private school classes were at a lower "level". I don't know how to explain it correctly but I think you understand what I want I mean. There are of course other and better private schools at a higher educational level in Germany but this would mean that I need to send my two kids, one is 6, the other one 9, far away, away from home. Forget it.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 Reginos, I think it's time Porsche wake up.  Their sports car range has been targeted by the likes of Audi, Nissan, BMW successfully of late.  Ok, they have retaliate a little with the 997.2 GT3 and turbo, but in general their products are no longer at the top of the echelon the way it used to, at least not with their non-turbo, non-GT models.  It isn't just a few of us here, we represent a lot of other Porsche enthusiast out there.  I have bypassed 3 Porsches now in the last 3 years and bought competitor products because they are either no longer exclusive, or doesn't give a good balance in performance/price.  Prior to that I would not have bought anything else if Porsche existed in that category that I was purchasing in.  Heck, I am thinking of buying a RS5 next year over another 911!  Think about that, I am considering a sedan based 2+2 over the supposedly legendary 911!

WAY:

 Reginos, I think it's time Porsche wake up.  Their sports car range has been targeted by the likes of Audi, Nissan, BMW successfully of late.  Ok, they have retaliate a little with the 997.2 GT3 and turbo, but in general their products are no longer at the top of the echelon the way it used to, at least not with their non-turbo, non-GT models.  It isn't just a few of us here, we represent a lot of other Porsche enthusiast out there.  I have bypassed 3 Porsches now in the last 3 years and bought competitor products because they are either no longer exclusive, or doesn't give a good balance in performance/price.  Prior to that I would not have bought anything else if Porsche existed in that category that I was purchasing in.  Heck, I am thinking of buying a RS5 next year over another 911!  Think about that, I am considering a sedan based 2+2 over the supposedly legendary 911!

What you say,justifies the VW deal even more.

It's been very difficult for a small independent manufacturer to compete against automotive giants and come on top in all areas(including value for money), no matter what engineering expertise exists at PAG. I expect great things from the VW link, contrary to popular opinion here.

Having said the above, Porsche still has a lot of very strong points in matters of prestige, driver appeal and long-life service. You can enjoy owning and driving a 911 very long after your RS5 or M3 becomes demode and even a 10 year old well maintained Boxster carries more charisma than the latest TT or Z4.

reginos:

WAY:

 Reginos, I think it's time Porsche wake up.  Their sports car range has been targeted by the likes of Audi, Nissan, BMW successfully of late.  Ok, they have retaliate a little with the 997.2 GT3 and turbo, but in general their products are no longer at the top of the echelon the way it used to, at least not with their non-turbo, non-GT models.  It isn't just a few of us here, we represent a lot of other Porsche enthusiast out there.  I have bypassed 3 Porsches now in the last 3 years and bought competitor products because they are either no longer exclusive, or doesn't give a good balance in performance/price.  Prior to that I would not have bought anything else if Porsche existed in that category that I was purchasing in.  Heck, I am thinking of buying a RS5 next year over another 911!  Think about that, I am considering a sedan based 2+2 over the supposedly legendary 911!

What you say,justifies the VW deal even more.

It's been very difficult for a small independent manufacturer to compete against automotive giants and come on top in all areas(including value for money), no matter what engineering expertise exists at PAG. I expect great things from the VW link, contrary to popular opinion here.

Having said the above, Porsche still has a lot of very strong points in matters of prestige, driver appeal and long-life service. You can enjoy owning and driving a 911 very long after your RS5 or M3 becomes demode and even a 10 year old well maintained Boxster carries more charisma than the latest TT or Z4.

Yes, a 911 will probably last longer, but how many of us here keep cars for more than a few years max?  As for prestige, I don't know if that is still true.  The reason I ditch my 997 for the Aston V8 previously is because there are so many 911s around where I am.  In the building I live in, Porsches are as common as BMWs and Mercedes!  I feel that a RS model Audi is more exclusive to an enthusiast nowadays than Porsches.  And yes, I would rather buy a TT RS than a Cayman S eventhough the Cayman S is no doubt a better car dynamically!

Exclusivity and perceived image have never been enough reasons for me to purchase an inferior machine.

Talking of how exclusive Aston Martin is, see this exquisite marque's latest joke:

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Porsche was always a benchmark for "getting the right amount of power/performance for the right amount of bucks". Nowadays, I just can't justify to myself to pay 170000 EUR for a well equipped Panamera Turbo when I can have similar performance in a sedan for 90000 EUR (C63 AMG or Jaguar XF-R). Even the more comparable BMW M5 or Mercedes E63 AMG are substantially cheaper than the Panamera Turbo.

I love Porsche but there has to be the right price/performance ratio, otherwise I won't buy a Porsche anymore, sorry.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Porsche was always a benchmark for "getting the right amount of power/performance for the right amount of bucks". Nowadays, I just can't justify to myself to pay 170000 EUR for a well equipped Panamera Turbo when I can have similar performance in a sedan for 90000 EUR (C63 AMG or Jaguar XF-R). Even the more comparable BMW M5 or Mercedes E63 AMG are substantially cheaper than the Panamera Turbo.

I love Porsche but there has to be the right price/performance ratio, otherwise I won't buy a Porsche anymore, sorry.

 Agree 100%!

RC:

Porsche was always a benchmark for "getting the right amount of power/performance for the right amount of bucks". Nowadays, I just can't justify to myself to pay 170000 EUR for a well equipped Panamera Turbo when I can have similar performance in a sedan for 90000 EUR (C63 AMG or Jaguar XF-R). Even the more comparable BMW M5 or Mercedes E63 AMG are substantially cheaper than the Panamera Turbo.

I love Porsche but there has to be the right price/performance ratio, otherwise I won't buy a Porsche anymore, sorry.

You can't find a good reason for paying extra to acquire a purpose built sports-limousine by Porsche rather than an overpowered C200 clone or a Mercedes taxi with a V8 engine?

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

reginos:

You can't find a good reason for paying extra to acquire a purpose built sports-limousine by Porsche rather than an overpowered C200 clone or a Mercedes taxi with a V8 engine?

 

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

I have two university degrees but most of the time, I'm wearing jeans in my business and you'll never see me with a tie. I don't have a fancy office or sales location but people come to me because they trust me and because they feel good at my business.

This is the type of person I am, do you really think I care that a C63 has a cheaper "relative" like the C200 ? People could argue that the 911 is just a bigger brother of the classic VW Beetle and they wouldn't be wrong.

Have you driven the C63 AMG ? In my opinion, this car is more fun than the Panamera Turbo, it just isn't a Porsche. Of course the Panamera Turbo has 4WD and the interior looks more classy but for me, as a PERFORMANCE type of driver, this doesn't really matter. 

Take the BMW M5 for example. The 5 series is a "bread and butter" car over here in Bavaria, so should I consider it not to be good ? In my opinion, the M5 still sets a benchmark for sporty sedans.

Now I'm 100% sure that you're working for the Porsche organization (sales person, marketing ?).   

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Now I'm 100% sure that you're working for the Porsche organization (sales person, marketing ?).   

Hahaha nothing of the kind

It's like saying that you've just started work at BMW and you hold a grudge against your former employer, Porsche

Boyko23:
Regions, well said! In addition, for almost half the price of the C-class you we can buy Cadilac CTS-V with 560 h.p.! Does it mean, that BMW, Mercedes and so on, has to reconsider their price policy? Porsche has always been more expensive, than the brans mentioned above. So what is the problem in the recent times here? I don't get it...

The Cadillac CTS-V is another good example, thank you that you mention it.   

No, Porsche always had products in a higher price range but the customer had most of the time the feeling that he got what he's paying for.

Things changed recently, the Panamera but even more the 911 Sport Classic for example are good examples on how this is going the wrong way.

Nowadays, people started to look for value when spending money and another problem might be that Porsche has a lot of new competition now.

I'm missing products like the former 993 Turbo for example. When Porsche put the 993 Turbo on the market, the competition was under shock.
Even the Cayenne Turbo is a good example but not the best one.

Right now, Porsche has two products worth the money: the 997 GT3 FL and the 997 Turbo FL. In my opinion, both products deliver good value for the money.

Just my personal opinion, nobody has to agree.

I'm just a humble customer who owned three Porsche at a time and who bought 9 Porsche in the past 13 years, so why would Porsche care what I think ?!  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

The answer to this whole conversation is, as always, DESIGN. Looks matter folks.

If Porsche had beautiful designs people would still buy them. The panamera is an ugly duckling as is the Cayenne. We have all said it from the 1st photo's!!!!!!!

If the panamera had the same visual appeal as the DBS in the O/T thread or the Cayenne had a better look, you can be sure there would be more loyalty.

Congrats on your purchase RC

RC:

Boyko23:
Regions, well said! In addition, for almost half the price of the C-class you we can buy Cadilac CTS-V with 560 h.p.! Does it mean, that BMW, Mercedes and so on, has to reconsider their price policy? Porsche has always been more expensive, than the brans mentioned above. So what is the problem in the recent times here? I don't get it...

 

The Cadillac CTS-V is another good example, thank you that you mention it.   

No, Porsche always had products in a higher price range but the customer had most of the time the feeling that he got what he's paying for.

Things changed recently, the Panamera but even more the 911 Sport Classic for example are good examples on how this is going the wrong way.

Nowadays, people started to look for value when spending money and another problem might be that Porsche has a lot of new competition now.

I'm missing products like the former 993 Turbo for example. When Porsche put the 993 Turbo on the market, the competition was under shock.
Even the Cayenne Turbo is a good example but not the best one.

Right now, Porsche has two products worth the money: the 997 GT3 FL and the 997 Turbo FL. In my opinion, both products deliver good value for the money.

Just my personal opinion, nobody has to agree.

I'm just a humble customer who owned three Porsche at a time and who bought 9 Porsche in the past 13 years, so why would Porsche care what I think ?!  

 

If this type of "value for money logic" was applied across thew whole car industry, then Germany wouldn't sell a single car from VW, Audi, Mercedes and BMW because in cold figures all their cars look like poor value next to Ford, Skoda, Volvo and never mind the Japanese and mostly Korean. Why pay more for a normal Golf than a Huyndai for example?

People's consumption behaviour doesn't necessarily follow this logic. Consumers are willing to pay a premium over and above the "logical" price if they feel good about it. I accept that a lot is down to successful marketing communication, but whatever the reason that's how it is.

For a very large proportion of consumers around the world the E-class is a boring taxi so their superfast AMG version cannot compare to the Panamera.

If SAAB could charge as much as BMW for their respective equally optioned models, they might still be in business.

Coming back to Porsche, the fact that they manage to sell above or near 100k units is a huge achievement IMO if you consider that mainstream brands like SAAB, Volvo, Jaguar etc struggle to sell as many. So they must be doing something right.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

RC:

Boyko23:
Regions, well said! In addition, for almost half the price of the C-class you we can buy Cadilac CTS-V with 560 h.p.! Does it mean, that BMW, Mercedes and so on, has to reconsider their price policy? Porsche has always been more expensive, than the brans mentioned above. So what is the problem in the recent times here? I don't get it...

 

The Cadillac CTS-V is another good example, thank you that you mention it.   

No, Porsche always had products in a higher price range but the customer had most of the time the feeling that he got what he's paying for.

Things changed recently, the Panamera but even more the 911 Sport Classic for example are good examples on how this is going the wrong way.

Nowadays, people started to look for value when spending money and another problem might be that Porsche has a lot of new competition now.

I'm missing products like the former 993 Turbo for example. When Porsche put the 993 Turbo on the market, the competition was under shock.
Even the Cayenne Turbo is a good example but not the best one.

Right now, Porsche has two products worth the money: the 997 GT3 FL and the 997 Turbo FL. In my opinion, both products deliver good value for the money.

Just my personal opinion, nobody has to agree.

I'm just a humble customer who owned three Porsche at a time and who bought 9 Porsche in the past 13 years, so why would Porsche care what I think ?!  

 

just my thoughts ! 993 turbo still makes waves today.

what a car when it came out. just looking at one gave me shivers. at that time the competition considered powerful to be 320 hp.

the cayenne too had shock value when it came out. german über-suv......

now porsche is playing the mid-fielder in the field.great cars vertainly but not at the forefront.

then 997.2 turbo might be the fasted accellerator again.....but the wow factor was already lost with the intro of the 997.1 turbo. people stopped noticing at that point. pdk just came far too late.

manuals simply do not cut the mustard anymore in todays high performance world.

man, would i love my gt2 to have pdk. it would be manic.

there is a lot the 991 will have to set straight if not....then it's done for porsche at the very peak of sports motoring.

racerx:

If Porsche had beautiful designs people would still buy them. The panamera is an ugly duckling as is the Cayenne. We have all said it from the 1st photo's!!!!!!!

As far as I've seen so far, Porsche have sold many thousands of Cayenne around the world, which proves that everybody's aesthetics are different.

 

If the panamera had the same visual appeal as the DBS in the O/T thread or the Cayenne had a better look, you can be sure there would be more loyalty.

 The luxury segment isn't exactly flooded with DBS's or other Aston Martin models. Mind you, in many parts of the world there is strong prejudice against british car brands because of the rubbish they produced for many years. This also brings down some of their better efforts.

racerx:

The answer to this whole conversation is, as always, DESIGN. Looks matter folks.

 

If Porsche had beautiful designs people would still buy them. The panamera is an ugly duckling as is the Cayenne. We have all said it from the 1st photo's!!!!!!!

 

If the panamera had the same visual appeal as the DBS in the O/T thread or the Cayenne had a better look, you can be sure there would be more loyalty.

 

Congrats on your purchase RC

 

actually part of what i like about porsch is that they do stick to thir heritage. the cayenne was supposed to have 911 dna. yes, it's not pretty, i agree. germans are very conservative when it comes down to design.

unlike the screaming italians.

we should not forgt about the fact that ALL porsches are bulletproof cars.

i have yet to see a ferrari or lambo with a 100k km's on the clock.

intouch1:

you mean VW should listen ?

 uuuh  low blow ! that was cold.

VW apparently already started to listen. Goal number one for Porsche apparently right now: reducing cost. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW