Crown

Dear Rennteamers!

As said in the title...

What may sound like an unusual question to many of you, but I'm really torn between these two cars and can't really make up my mind. 

The situation: I think the latest (and last) evolution of the 997 is a very good car and definitely a typical 911. I guess this car will be remembered as one highlight of the everlasting 911-theme, just as the 993. That does not mean, that the 991 will be not as good or desirable,  but - at least for me - the 997 comes perfectly close to what I imagine when it comes to a modern interpretation of a car like the 911. 

And who knows how much VW we will see in a 911 in the future…

I guess I could keep this for a longer time and I don’t want to make anything wrong.

So the pros for the Turbo are definitely its sensational performance and the fact, that it probably is one of the fastest daily drivable sports cars you can get. Not that good is the price hike you pay (if specced correctly) and the higher loss you will have to pay for when you sell it (but then I don’t want to sell that car anytime soon).

Advantage of the C4S is the “classier” look, without a wing. I guess it would also be quick enough for my needs, it uses less fuel (not that important when it comes to sports cars, but using 9 litres/100 km when cruising can be fun as well) and the money loss will be lower than with a Turbo.

I’m not interested in tracking this car and will definitely order the PDK. So it would be more of a comfort version of a sports car.

So, which one to take and be happy for a couple of years?

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

New generation of cars are full with sensors and electronics. Hard to keep such a car for a long period of time without paying a lot of money in the future on maintenance.

Also a NA engine generally speaking has a longer life cycle than a turbo one.

So it depends also on your definition of a "long time"

If a long time it's more than 10 years I would go for the standard Carrera S not even a C4S and I would spec the car without PASM, PCCB, navigation, Bose and other very expensive electronic stuff.

Unless you want to go extremely fast or feel that you own the fastest car around, IMO the Turbo's extra performance is not very useful in normal driving conditions (even in Germany). Also in a Turbo it is not very pleasant  to drive slowly (it is also very difficult to keep a reasonably low speed) whereas in a Carrera S you can just about do it. The price differential is huge and for me the clean look of the Carrera is preferable. 

I wouldn't go for the 4WD model unless where you live it offers a very tangible use advantage i.e. you cannot use the car all year round unless it has 4WD. True, the C4S goes more like a train compared to the CS and it inspires little more confidence in some road and weather conditions but the 2WD car is cheaper, less complicated and more fun to drive.

PDK is a must especially for a daily car. Also don't spend money for expensive cosmetic extras, stick to functional options. A simply specified Carrera is a very nice, timeless car to be kept for many years and may I say good value for money too.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Thanks Pentium, thanks reginos for the answers so far.

I forgot to mention, that the car has to be AWD, since I just sold my C2S and want four wheel drive this time. I'm no friend of cosmetic extras, no matter which car, so options are already decided (leather, navi, PDK and some other goodies, but nothing too extraordinary), only question that remains open is 385 or 500 horses.

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Turbo is some EUR 45.000 extra. So the question to ask yourself is how often (if at all) you will need or be able to use the extra horses? Only you know the answer.

Even if you are in a fortunate  "money no object" position and you can easily afford the Turbo, IMO it is more pleasant in real traffic conditions to drive a slower car fast than a faster car slow.

For ME, it would be 997 Turbo or a 997 Carrera S with Powerkit.

The 997 Carrera S has very good traction capabilities, you don't really need a 4S, even in winter time.

For somebody in "our business", the 997 Carrera S with powerkit is pure understatement. Just "another" 911...perfect but fast.

My two cents...

Don't forget three additional VITAL options on the Carrera S (IF you consider one): PDK, LSD and Sport Exhaust.

Fun for MANY years ? Definetely the Turbo.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

reginos:

Unless you want to go extremely fast or feel that you own the fastest car around, IMO the Turbo's extra performance is not very useful in normal driving conditions (even in Germany). 

Especially in Germany, it is actually VERY useful. Why do you think am I looking for a high performance family car instead of a Diesel stationwagon ?! 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

reginos:

Unless you want to go extremely fast or feel that you own the fastest car around, IMO the Turbo's extra performance is not very useful in normal driving conditions (even in Germany). 

Especially in Germany, it is actually VERY useful. Why do you think am I looking for a high performance family car instead of a Diesel stationwagon ?! 

It is often reported that heavy traffic conditions make the unlimited autobahnen as slow as any motorway, most of the time.

Of course, this could be just another exaggeration and far from the truth. You are of course closer to things and you know first hand.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Honestly? You need the turbo   

Should be possible to negotiate a good deal these days. The turbo is worth the premium if you can enjoy the power on the Autobahn.

P.S.: I wouldn't expect the turbo to consume more fuel, BTW. 10l/100km is possible if you travel at constant speeds of 140kph or lower. 

reginos:

 

It is often reported that heavy traffic conditions make the unlimited autobahnen as slow as any motorway, most of the time.

Of course, this could be just another exaggeration and far from the truth. You are of course closer to things and you know first hand.

 

It depends in which region of Germany you live. In my region the Autobahn has become a bad joke - it's either under construction / repair or congested by trucks  
 

@ Stefan: unless you do a lot of km on "clear" stretches of the Autobahn (= Turbo) I think the decisive points are:

> do you like the characteristics of the N/A engine more then the TT engine ?

> do you like the design of the Carrera more than that of the TT ?

Why 4WD ? Do you like the wider hips more ?

If you don't feel the need for the Turbo punch then I'd get exactly what RC is recommending as an alternative: 2S with sporty options

But then - come to think of it:  a 3.8 GT3 is really not that "hard" if you stick to the stock suspension set-up - but it's more driving fun  and in the long run you have a "classic" with the good old Mezger engine derived powerplant   If not a daily driver with lots of boring city km it's worth a thought IMHO unless you need the rear seats.

--
 

public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

Rossi:

Dear Rennteamers!

As said in the title...

What may sound like an unusual question to many of you, but I'm really torn between these two cars and can't really make up my mind. 

The situation: I think the latest (and last) evolution of the 997 is a very good car and definitely a typical 911. I guess this car will be remembered as one highlight of the everlasting 911-theme, just as the 993. That does not mean, that the 991 will be not as good or desirable,  but - at least for me - the 997 comes perfectly close to what I imagine when it comes to a modern interpretation of a car like the 911. 

And who knows how much VW we will see in a 911 in the future…

I guess I could keep this for a longer time and I don’t want to make anything wrong.

So the pros for the Turbo are definitely its sensational performance and the fact, that it probably is one of the fastest daily drivable sports cars you can get. Not that good is the price hike you pay (if specced correctly) and the higher loss you will have to pay for when you sell it (but then I don’t want to sell that car anytime soon).

Advantage of the C4S is the “classier” look, without a wing. I guess it would also be quick enough for my needs, it uses less fuel (not that important when it comes to sports cars, but using 9 litres/100 km when cruising can be fun as well) and the money loss will be lower than with a Turbo.

I’m not interested in tracking this car and will definitely order the PDK. So it would be more of a comfort version of a sports car.

So, which one to take and be happy for a couple of years?

 

Stefan,

Since we both know what will be your ultimate sportscar my answer is the same as the one given by Markus and Christian-997.2 Turbo PDK.

Why? Simple as that-it is the best 997 so far(if we take out GT2/3 models). All latest Porsche tech is in that car. PDK works very best in new Turbo and all people that I spoke with(that had a chance to drive new Turbo) told me that Turbo PDK is far better and more refined car then C4S PDK. Money wise it is more expensive-I know that. Just, choose your option wisely and you will have great car.

MUST options: PDK, PTV, SC+. Take normal Sport seats(non cost option and they are better IMHO then Adaptive sportseats), seat heating and add some minor interior options adn this is it. You know what money I am talking about here...

...and life is too short. Who knows what will happened in few years time with car industry. This is good oportunity to own really great sportscar-997.2 Turbo PDK-probably the cheapest way to own true supercar IMO.

My answer is obvious,but if you whant to be happy for a few years and every time you push full throttle think "damn,this car is really fast!!" take the Turbo! i'm in love with this car!

and yes i also think that the 997 will be a kind of 993 in Porsche's history

so,don't loose time again,and think also that if you whant to stay with this car for a fe,that there is also the upcoming 997TTS

KresoF1:

...and life is too short. Who knows what will happened in few years time with car industry. This is good oportunity to own really great sportscar-997.2 Turbo PDK-probably the cheapest way to own true supercar IMO.

6 months from now, you are driving your new C4S or TT and you see the one you did NOT choose drive by, do you have any regrets? Of course you will admire the other regardless, but which one will elicit the strongest feeling of "could have, should have"?

Two great cars for sure so you can't go wrong but that 997.2 TT PDK certainly is intriguing...

Slow In, Fast Out

I would go for a C4S with powerkit (PSE included) and PDK w/paddles, why?

1. The price difference

2. I would want a car that I could just cruise around in and enjoy the growl of the PSE, in addition to driving "actively". This is more important to me than doing 0-100 kph in 3 seconds (instead of 4) or humiliate other cars on the Autobahn. In the Turbo I suspect that I would constantly feel the urge to "push it" to feel the rush of that incredible acceleration which could be potentially dangerous for my licence, pedestrians, wildlife...

Disclaimer: I haven't driven the Turbo, and one launch control start might be enough to make me take back everything I have said so far

10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

20 GOTO 10

30 RUN

KresoF1:

MUST options: PDK, PTV, SC+. Take normal Sport seats(non cost option and they are better IMHO then Adaptive sportseats), seat heating and add some minor interior options adn this is it. You know what money I am talking about here...

Don't forget PCD - Porsche Competent Driver

10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

20 GOTO 10

30 RUN

Rossi,

I just order a 997.2 TT with no nonsense options, just the important stuff and it's not that much more expensive than my friends 997.24S who went nuts with cosmetic options.  Only around 20k Difference in Euros.  My opinion is that if you can afford the Turbo then you should go for it! I loved my 997 4s and kept it for a year, then got a great deal 997.1 Turbo and kept that for 2 years before upgrading to this one.... The turbo was just so much more thrilling to drive and also as practical in everyday usage as my 4s.  I had the power when i need or better yet wanted it hehe and the AWD for winter.  If money isn't an option go down to your dealer and order a turbo!

here are my specs guys! i expect her in Mid January!

sorry forgo to paste

Porsche Torque Vectoring

Wheels Painted in Deviating Exterior Color

hahahahhaha so sorry guys!

Rear Lights in Clrear Glass Optics

Promise that was the last one!

BTW, do you like the "reflector" between the 997 4s rear lights 

MKSGR:

 

BTW, do you like the "reflector" between the 997 4s rear lights 

I have to admit - yes.

Thanks for all the answers so far.

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

 Carrera S with PDK and Power Kit:

• A N/A engine is, in my view, more fun than a Turbo engine.
• It should be on par with, or better than, a 997.1 GT3 and 996 Turbo in straight line performance.
• The classic Carrera, without any spoilers or wings or reflectors, look better than the 4S and the Turbo.
• The S has got excellent traction. No need for AWD.
• The Turbo will depreciate far worse.

987 Boxster S, Arctic Silver with 'Martini Racing' Livery, H&R Monotube Coil-Overs, H&R Anti Roll Bars, Strut Brace, FVD ECU, BMC Air Filter, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, Recaro Racing Shells, PSE.

997 Carrera 4S, Guards Red, Bilstein PSS10 Damptronic, H&R Anti Roll Bars, IPD Plenum, Dension Gateway 500, PSE.

From my experience, I've always found it better to buy the car that I have the more emotional experience/connection with.  If it's not a question of money, I would go for the Turbo hands down.  Having owned both a 997.1 C2S and now a 997.1 Turbo Cab, I can tell you the driving pleasure I get out of the Turbo is exponentially higher.  I don't track or race my car, but every time I do punch the accelerator (even if only for a couple of seconds), it never fails to put a grin on my face.  The Turbo is bulletproof.  I use it as a daily driver without issue or hesitation.  For me, I also prefer the design of the Turbo over the normally aspirated cars.  The wider stance, wheels, and body trim accentuate the heightened performance ability without being too over the top.  The best advice I can give is to arrange for a back to back test drive for both cars.  I promise you you'll have your answer, either way!

2009 Porsche Turbo Cab - Cargraphic exhaust, HRE P40's charcoal

Rossi:

MKSGR:

 

BTW, do you like the "reflector" between the 997 4s rear lights 

I have to admit - yes.

Ok, then the 4s is made for you 

 Stefan, I am in the same boat. If I opt out of the 458 would I prefer the Turbo or the 4S (I like the wide rear). Also, like you I have concerns regarding the cost of the TT after getting what I would deem necessary options. At the end of the day, it could cost well over $160,000. 

That said, I like my cars to stand out and have some exclusivity. The Turbo does separate itself from the other 911 models. (the GT2,GT3 and RS have those silly whale tails which make then look stupid on public streets and highways). It has Ferrari like performance at a fraction of the cost.

Depreciation will be an issue but even with Ferrari, the day of driving the car and selling it for more than what you paid for it is gone.

If money is a serious issue go with the 4S. If money is a consideration and nothing more, then go with the Turbo.

 The basic choice is NA or turbo. I prefer NA.

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

Thanks for all the answers, still undecided.
I will drive the 997.2 Turbo early next year, so I still have some time to make up my mind.

@Markus: What do you think would be a "good deal these days"?

@Achim: Normally I would prefer NA to turbo, but I drove the 997.1 Turbo and it was very impressing. I want AWD because I just had the RWD and want something different and I like the wider hips as well as the "safer" feel you have in the AWD-911, when travelling on wet roads. I like the design of the standard Carrera more than that of the Turbo, but the Turbo ain't bad either. Neither 2S with power kit nor GT3 are alternatives for me.

@Kreso: What is it exactly that makes the PDK in the Turbo more refined than in a Carrera? PDK, PTV, SC+ are a must that's true, I would order standard seats though.

@temm: PDK-Paddles are still not available in the NA-cars.

@Nick: Price difference between 4S and Turbo would be more or less exactly 40k (in my case).

@all the others: thank you for your valuable input so far, I love this forum.
 

One more word: "For a longer time" in my case would be at least for the next five years. I don't think that I want to upgrade to a 991, since I think the 997 is so good looking. Of course you never know. 
But if only some of the facts from the 991-spy-thread become true, like bigger car, more styling elements from Panamera (rear!), more VW.parts etc., I'm not interested at all. And one more thing I'm a bit concerned about when it comes to the Turbo: when the new car (991) will come out, you will have the old model. But with a NA-Carrera, you still have a 911. It's a bit difficult to explain, but the typical, classy 911 is a Carrera (no matter if RWD or AWD). And the more classy you choose, the longer the car stays fresh (if it has a great design).

Well, actually quite difficult to explain...

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Rossi:

@Achim: Normally I would prefer NA to turbo, but I drove the 997.1 Turbo and it was very impressing. I want AWD because I just had the RWD and want something different and I like the wider hips as well as the "safer" feel you have in the AWD-911, when travelling on wet roads. I like the design of the standard Carrera more than that of the Turbo, but the Turbo ain't bad either. Neither 2S with power kit nor GT3 are alternatives for me.

I had the same fundamental thoughts as you, Rossi. However I do not believe that VW´s influence on the 911 will make the successor any less original than the 997.  Having the same feeling about the genuine character of 993 resp. 997, the most genuine current models are the Turbo and GT3.

If I were you, I´d choose a 997.1 Turbo (with PCM 3) and consider the inevitable modifications that many members on here have done (GT2 or aftermarket rims, different suspension). That way the car remains visually and financially attractive in the long run and still features the famous Mezger engine.

Without a doubt, the 997.2 models are technically more advanced (PDK, PTV) but if I would be looking out for a long-term ownership, that advantage would be diminished far too soon with the arrival of the 991.

Do you like the better the red stripe or the wing

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Rossi:

@Achim: Normally I would prefer NA to turbo, but I drove the 997.1 Turbo and it was very impressing. I want AWD because I just had the RWD and want something different and I like the wider hips as well as the "safer" feel you have in the AWD-911, when travelling on wet roads. I like the design of the standard Carrera more than that of the Turbo, but the Turbo ain't bad either. Neither 2S with power kit nor GT3 are alternatives for me.
 

O.K. - now I understand where you're coming from.

In this case the choice is obvious:

"Something different"  = Carrera 4S

"Something really different" = TT 

I agree with you that the clean design of the 4S is more appealing compared to that of the TT, but finally you enjoy the car most when sitting behind the steering wheel....

Of course the price difference of approximately 40k € is a lot, but I guess come resale time after 5 years you may loose maybe 20 k€ more compared to the 4S but not 40k€ more...

Re the 991 it's really hard to say where Porsche will be heading to: more comfort ? more "green tech" less driver involvement ? OR less weight ? more driving fun ?

For now I share your scepticism, but let's hope that we're wrong - future will tell. 

Regarding the design of the 997 I also agree with you: the basic design has been launched already 5 years ago (time is flying ) and It still looks fresh to me with very nice lines (same goes for the 987) 

public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

Rossi:

 

@Kreso: What is it exactly that makes the PDK in the Turbo more refined than in a Carrera? PDK, PTV, SC+ are a must that's true, I would order standard seats though.

Stefan,

PDK in Turbo works better then in Carreras since it is even more carefully mated with the engine. Or in different words-engine/gearbox interface works in better harmony...

Since Turbo is well... Turbocharged engine is much more natural choice for any DCT gearbox like PDK since there is much more fine adjustment playroom then in NA engine case. I will not compare 458 Italia DCT/engine here since all-in-all 458 is much more expensive car.

According to my source PDK in Turbo is even better in overall execution then PDK in Panamera Turbo. 

One person that drove both 458 Italia at press launch and 997.2 Turbo PDK told me that:"... these are the best DCTs currently on the market. Period. Which one is better? I can not tell you honestly. Turbo is much better for slow city driving and traffic. PDK works like good autbox in this condition(in standard programm). When you drive fast both DCT in 458 and PDK in Turbo work excellent. For normal very fast driving you do NOT need Sport + programm at all. Sport programm is enough. In fact both cars are current State-of-the-art in sportscar development and they are different enough but, they complement each other nicelly. Ideally, I would have both in my garage..."

BTW, he owns 997.1 GT3 as a sportscar and VW Passat Variant DSG as family car.

Regarding danger of 997.2 Turbo PDK becoming old model too soon(when 991 hits the showrooms)... I am looking at it differently-Turbo is a Turbo IMHO...