Crown

RC:

Are you kidding? Why would I get a C63 and keep the Cayenne?

Nope. Why should i?

Personally if i would be a millionnaire or been abble to afford myself another car i would and even, a fith, a sith and, and, and ..... . Cause cars is my passion. Unfortunatly, with free cars already, i hit my highest level for my vallet.

i think that a SUV is really not the same car then a station wagon and personnaly if i could, i wouldn't mind to have a SUV, Station vagon, Mini and GT3. So no i'm not kidding.

 Cayenne Turbo - Mini Cooper S - 997 GT3

Ferdie:

I am not sure if the smaller interior and lack of AWD would suit your needs, especially since you promoted the advantages of an SUV in the past. If it is due to the social surroundings you mentioned, wouldn´t you be better off with an E63?

The E63 is a little bit too big for my taste and performance is slightly worse than the one of the C63 Performance Package. Cost is also a factor, a fully loaded C63 AMG with Performance and Driver's Package is 87000 EUR after rebate, the E63 with similar options would be around 125000(!) EUR. Thats 38000 EUR more for a car with similar performance. No way.

Btw: the C63 AMG Performance Package does 0-200 kph in 13.6 seconds (tested with GPS), the Panamera Turbo we tested did 0-200 kph in 13.7 seconds. Same performance for MUCH less money.

I still think the C63 AMG Performance Package is a bargain for the performance it delivers and the fact that it (almost) looks like an ordinary C-class is a huge advantage for me. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to justify getting a C63, it isn't really my first choice at all but looking at the performance figures and the price tag, I have to say that I'm deeply impressed. Keep in mind that we're talking here about a family car/daily driver, not the ultimate "wanna have" fun car. 

As to the question why I don't get the C63 AMG and keep the Cayenne: contrary to some beliefs (apparently) here in the forum, I'm no millionaire, not even close. I have a good credit history and I earn good money, so I can afford to lease some very special cars. I couldn't afford buying them, so keeping the Cayenne and getting the C63 AMG too is financially impossible for me.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Oh boy, my local Mercedes dealer just offered me a brandnew and fully equipped white Mercedes C63 AMG Performance Package for 87000 EUR and he wants to take in our Cayenne Turbo S too.

My wife still wants the BMW X6M and I also want a SUV for winter time and moving the kids but this offer is very good and I have a hard time passing on it. The car looks great and there can't be better understatement than this type of car. Most people think it is just a modded ordinary C-class, not a car with almost 500 horses. Sweet...

Go for the C63  More agile, faster, more understated than the X6M. At the same time the X6M does not offer much more - except for AWD, of course...

MKSGR:

RC:

Oh boy, my local Mercedes dealer just offered me a brandnew and fully equipped white Mercedes C63 AMG Performance Package for 87000 EUR and he wants to take in our Cayenne Turbo S too.

My wife still wants the BMW X6M and I also want a SUV for winter time and moving the kids but this offer is very good and I have a hard time passing on it. The car looks great and there can't be better understatement than this type of car. Most people think it is just a modded ordinary C-class, not a car with almost 500 horses. Sweet...

 

Go for the C63  More agile, faster, more understated than the X6M. At the same time the X6M does not offer much more - except for AWD, of course...

C63 PP is faster than X6 M? Really?

palenimbus:

MKSGR:

RC:

Oh boy, my local Mercedes dealer just offered me a brandnew and fully equipped white Mercedes C63 AMG Performance Package for 87000 EUR and he wants to take in our Cayenne Turbo S too.

My wife still wants the BMW X6M and I also want a SUV for winter time and moving the kids but this offer is very good and I have a hard time passing on it. The car looks great and there can't be better understatement than this type of car. Most people think it is just a modded ordinary C-class, not a car with almost 500 horses. Sweet...

 

Go for the C63  More agile, faster, more understated than the X6M. At the same time the X6M does not offer much more - except for AWD, of course...

 

C63 PP is faster than X6 M? Really?

~500 PS vs. ~550 PS,

1800 kg vs. 2400 kg,

13.6 seconds vs. 16.3 seconds 0-200 km/h,

RWD vs. AWD,

drag coefficient 0.30 vs. 0.38,

frontal area much larger with the X6.

The X6M may be fast, but it's still a big, heavy SUV.

Crash:

palenimbus:

MKSGR:

RC:

Oh boy, my local Mercedes dealer just offered me a brandnew and fully equipped white Mercedes C63 AMG Performance Package for 87000 EUR and he wants to take in our Cayenne Turbo S too.

My wife still wants the BMW X6M and I also want a SUV for winter time and moving the kids but this offer is very good and I have a hard time passing on it. The car looks great and there can't be better understatement than this type of car. Most people think it is just a modded ordinary C-class, not a car with almost 500 horses. Sweet...

 

Go for the C63  More agile, faster, more understated than the X6M. At the same time the X6M does not offer much more - except for AWD, of course...

 

C63 PP is faster than X6 M? Really?

 

~500 PS vs. ~550 PS,

1800 kg vs. 2400 kg,

13.6 seconds vs. 16.3 seconds 0-200 km/h,

RWD vs. AWD,

drag coefficient 0.30 vs. 0.38,

frontal area much larger with the X6.

 

The X6M may be fast, but it's still a big, heavy SUV.

Also, handling wise the C63 has quite an advantage (SportAuto data):

NBR: 8.24 (X6M) vs.8.13 (X6M)

HHR: 1.17,1 (X6M) vs. 1.15,7 (C63)

^Funny how that advantage seems to disappear on the track. I don't see any real difference... 1-2 sec. difference between the two, and so much different on paper and in the flesh. Good job BMW!

janus:

^Funny how that advantage seems to disappear on the track. I don't see any real difference... 1-2 sec. difference between the two, and so much different on paper and in the flesh. Good job BMW!

I'm afraid thats not true. 1-2 seconds difference in Hockenheim mean WORLDS.

Still...the track time for the X6 M isn't bad at all...for a SUV.

Like I said before: just imagine that the C63 AMG Performance Package does 0-100 kph in 4.2 seconds (with limited slip differential and the 7G auto tranny, you just have to press the throttle and there you go) and 0-200 kph in 13.6 seconds (tested with GPS). The Panamera Turbo can't do it better, there is a slight advantage of 0.2 seconds from 0-100 kph according to the Porsche factory claim.

Top speed with driver's package is 280 kph on the C63 PP while the Panamera Turbo easily hits the 300 kph mark. This is definetely faster but I can live with it.

From a track performance point of view, the C63 AMG is OK, not a real winner but to be honest: I would be ashamed to drive in a sedan on the track, this is so lame (sorry, just my personal opinion).

I testdrove a C63 AMG without PP yesterday and I really liked it. The steering is very direct, the auto tranny is a treat and the engine/exhaust sound is very nice. Throttle response is very immediate, the C63 AMG is definetely a fun car but of course it competes in a different league compared to a 911 for example.

Friday will be the day of decisions, I'm going to talk to my BMW and my Mercedes dealer and whoever comes up with the better deal...well...  I also have the freedom not to accept any of the deals if I consider them to be bad, there is no real car "emergency" or "must-have" feeling here, so I don't have to rush things if I'm going to loose a lot of money.

--
 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Friday will be the day of decisions, I'm going to talk to my BMW and my Mercedes dealer and whoever comes up with the better deal...well...  I also have the freedom not to accept any of the deals if I consider them to be bad, there is no real car "emergency" or "must-have" feeling here, so I don't have to rush things if I'm going to loose a lot of money.

 

 

 Sounds like an excellent negotiation position  Good luck and may the best car find its way to your heart   

Well, none of the two cars is actually a love or "must-have" decision but a compromise.

I would prefer to drive a Panamera Turbo and a GT3 RS but since the decision is made by my bank account and not my personal wishes, I have no choice.  

Other people would be thankful to drive/own a X6 M and/or a C63 AMG PP but looking at my car driving/owning background you may understand why I can't be really thankful.

Maybe the deal(s) fall through and I get a better chance for a deal in 18 months when my 997 Turbo lease runs out.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Ok guys i need help here..... I have 10k USD i wanna spend on tuning my C63! Any suggestions? Just for fun i contacted my local Benz dealer about the brabus option, this was his response below lol I need help people what do you guys think is the best bang for the buck, taking into consideration reliability and hopefully avoiding the loss of warranty.  The total below comes to about 20k US with the exchange rates, installation, and vat.

Moser

 Moser,

is the standard C63 not quick enough for you??

i think its already too powerful for the amount of traction I can get from the rear tyres!

PS. i dont hv slip diff and run on stndard PZeros.

my suggestions:

1)  ECU flash (about 3k)  Evotec??  some are reversible. should get another 20 bhp easy

2)  lighter forged alloys 18"  (5k).  the stock ones are heavy.   less unsprung weight = better turn in and the car feeling less "heavy"

3)  H&R coilovers (2k). 

after those you should be a very happy man!

Derder,

You can never have to much power, thanks for the input.  I'm looking into your suggestions, i'll keep you posted.

Moser

Moser,

as a person, who has had some "things" in common with Brabus in the past, I have to say, that they are "a lot of money for almost nothing"...

Not to mention, that Brabus is a total disaster in the last few years concerning power kits(petrol and diesel) and braking systems...

Boyko,

Ya i've heard that from a few people now, and brabus prices are ridiiculous for what they offer.  And derder is right the C63 is powerful already but i'm always looking for that little bit extra.  My friends and I do a lot of driving sunday mornings bright and early on our highways, we have no enforced speed limits in Lebanon and we really get to push our cars.  I'm running with the likes of GT3's, R8's many Carrera's and let me tell you this car outperforms most of them on the highway.  Whenever we stop for a coffee or breakfast somewhere they are all coming up to me and complaining and how fast the car is and how they are all so surprised. But as you all know power is addictive and if i can fiind a reliable tuning program for this car, for a decent budget, i would go for it.  I already sent Evotech an email and waiting for their response.  keep your eyes and ears open for me!!  next trip we go on i'll post some pics!

RC, get the SUV. It's safer for your kids, especially during winter time.

Pentium:

RC, get the SUV. It's safer for your kids, especially during winter time.

Thanks. I was telling this to myself too but unfortunately money is an issue and I really depend on a good deal from my BMW dealer which isn't very likely to happen because the whole deal is kind of complicated.

Maybe I'm just keeping the Cayenne 18 months longer, the depriciation is already very high and I doubt it is going to be much higher in 18 months.

The C63 AMG PP has one huge advantage: it is a very fast car for little money and I can drive to work in it without having to worry about my customers. It is not as safe as a SUV of course and I bet the kids won't love it as much as they love the Cayenne (they really do, my 9-year old daughter started crying the moment I just mentioned I would want to sell the Cayenne ) but like always in life, money is very important and I'm afraid I don't have a lot of choices here.

A little sidenote to Moser: I would rather get the limited slip differential retrofitted than getting the Brabus package. A LSD retrofit costs around 3400 EUR incl. 19% VAT over here in Germany, just for the book. The LSD adds a lot of fun to the C63. I had an E55 and retrofitted the LSD at AMG in Affalterbach (among other goodies too) and it really changed the car a lot.

Btw: the Perfomance Package Plus can be retrofitted too, I just don't have a quote. The Performance Chassis retrofit is around 2000 EUR incl. 19% VAT and install, the Performance Brake System is around 2400 EUR incl. 19% VAT and install and the engine/ECU retrofit is of course not cheap but it can be done too.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

It’s an interesting thread here with some misunderstandings about the C63 that i want to clarify.

The “normal” performance package (p30) has no power upgrade.

It comes with
• Electronic Speed Limiter Deletion
• AMG Limited Slip Differential
• AMG Performance Suspension
• AMG High-Performance Composite Brakes
• AMG Performance Steering Wheel
(Nappa Leather with Alcantara Side Grips)

Imho the PP version is way to hard suspension wise for everyday usage. Also the 0-200 times do not differ on PP or not, and on production models these times come in the 15 sec range. Here is also a short race (from standstill) between X6M and C63 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzN_EvzFOfQ&translated=1 . Btw this engine is “detuned” and when the "detune" is removed the power goes up to around 500 HP. You can go to evotech (3000 €) or kleemann (2000 €) for this. Brabus is way overrated and overpriced.
The throttle opens over 4000rpm to only 40%, and when you drive the car its feel able that there is some restriction. With chip only you come in a low 14 from 0-200.

The “new” performance package (p30) has a power upgrade. It’s available with December production models, and first tests should hit the road in 1 or 2 month.

It comes with
• AMG Power Upgrade to 487 PS
• Small Carbon Rear Spoiler
• AMG High-Performance Composite Brakes with Red Calipers
• AMG Performance Steering Wheel
(Nappa Leather with Alcantara Side Grips)

Additional are now
• Electronic Speed Limiter Deletion
• AMG Limited Slip Differential

Not available
• AMG Performance Suspension

RC I can recommend you that you buy the car new over tax free sales from Mercedes uk. You can order an german spec car (lhd, km/h speedo, german manuals) and when you register the car in germany, no one knows that the car got on sale over uk. I have investigated the whole process and I can give you details from the uk tax free key account manager mercedes benz when you want. The car comes around 67000 € loaded with new PP and all other needed extras with German tax.

I suppose I should have clarified it earlier: in Germany, the performance pack with power upgrade is called Performance Pack Plus.

My local dealer already has a white C63 with Performance Pack Plus AND driver's package in stock, the car also has the limited slip differential. Interesting combo because so far, I found only cars with PPP but without the driver's package and LSD. Or cars with LSD but without the PPP and driver's package and so on.

Thanks for the hint with the UK ordering but I'm afraid I'm not buying the car, I usually go for a lease. From my past experience, buying cars valued over 50000 EUR is usually a loss situation because I never drive them longer than 3-4 years and the depreciation in this price range is HUGE over the first couple of years of ownership.

All ECU upgrades void the warranty and since Mercedes Germany is using telemetric diagnostics, it is a no go for me. Each time the car is at the dealer for service, the ECU is connected directly to Mercedes Benz central to look up possible software updates, check for issues, errors, etc. The warranty would be voided in a second, it already happened to one of my customers with his SL55 AMG. Of course you still have the possibility to go to court and sue Mercedes if they don't want to pay for a repair during the warranty period but it is a painful and tiresome process, not worth it for additional 20-30 horses.

According to a Mercedes Benz testdriver (my local dealership happens to be testdriving "central" for Mercedes Benz Germany, all mules are registered to this FACTORY dealership), the only thing really worth using on the C63 is a new exhaust system with high flow 200 cell catalytic converters. This alone, if designed properly, provides around 15-20 horses on the PPP cars without any further mods. Unfortunately he also told me that the exhaust note changes to a higher pitch by doing that, so I'm not quite fond of it.

I'm still not sure if I'm going to get the C63, I really like this car (high performance and fun for "little" money) but my wife wants (and actually needs because of the kids) the X6 M, so I guess the final decision is hers.

Right now, as of today but it can change tomorrow when I get the "final" deal offers, our wish list looks like this:

1. getting rid of my wife's M3 Cab DKG, getting rid of the Cayenne Turbo S (pre-facelift) and getting a brandnew X6 M

2. getting a 991 Carrera ("S" maybe) Cabriolet in 18 months after my 997 Turbo lease runs out

This would actually be our favorite combo because it would allow us to include a 911 AND a Cab again into our daily life.

If I get the C63 PPP now, I'm not sure the next car in 18 months is going to be a Porsche anymore and this would be really a problem for me since I invested so much time in creating some sort of "relationship" to this brand.

Thanks again for all your inputs and thoughts, I really appreciate it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Dealer just offered me 28% (!) off a brandnew C63 AMG Performance Package (incl. LSD, different brake, chassis mod, 280 kph delimiation but WITHOUT the extra 30 HP), a really interesting deal. They have this car in stock and apparently they want to get rid of it.

Btw: a convertible (very likely 991 Carrera Cab) would come "back" in 18 months, when my 997 Turbo lease runs out.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

28 %   Has he made this deal cause  you have the factory discount or anything else or have you get it as a private. If you get it as a private. I would go for it. This is really a great deal. I'm not even sure i would get that here.

The more i get the other day when i went to see my dealer for a RS6 was 10%. So 28% for a brand new car and with knowing that a new car loose 30% of his value as soon as you have seat in it. REALLY good deal.

And about the fact to keep the cayenne and get the C63, i was teasing you the other day.

i'm no one, except Cram to tell you what to do! Be happy RC and don't forget life is short.

So enjoy it and do what you prefer and get what's right for you and your family.

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 Cayenne Turbo - Mini Cooper S - 997 GT3

The factory seems to have some sort of special offers (which apparently can be combined) until Dec. 31th.

The car in the show room is really nice, has all the options but not the 30HP power boost.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 This explains why I have seen a few new unregistered G55s, that are in stock at MB dealers, from 131k Euros discounted to 94k Euro... 

If you are trading in your CT, I would go for the X6M, you will need a 4WD car for the winter...

By the way RC, why dont you consider a G55? It is a classic, safe, it is powerful, not as fast as the C63 and the Xseries M, but it is a low profile car (something you are looking for). 

N11KOY:

By the way RC, why dont you consider a G55? It is a classic, safe, it is powerful, not as fast as the C63 and the Xseries M, but it is a low profile car (something you are looking for). 

The G55 is the exact opposite of a low-profile car...

Like Ferdie already said: the G55 is definetely NOT a low profile car.

I'm afraid the C63 AMG deal fell through, it ain't going to happen.

The dealer offered the mentioned great rebate, even with a lease contract but the amount of money they offered for my Cayenne Turbo S was ridiculously low, so I refused to go through with it. He then offered a couple of thousands more but it still wasn't enough.

Bye bye C63...no chance.

Next week, my BMW dealer needs to give me his "numbers", then we'll see. I also have my Porsche dealer looking at some figures, I'll keep you guys updated. Right now, I'm afraid I'm going to keep my Cayenne Turbo S, I don't want to give it away for free.

Speaking of resale value: Porsche is definetely NOT where they were many years ago. Take the Cayenne: pay 150000 EUR for a Cayenne Turbo S today and if you want to sell it tomorrow, you get only 100000 EUR. No thanks.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

The problem is: new PORSCHE aren't always heavily discounted. Take the Panamera Turbo: most german dealers give buyers a 3-7% rebate. Now lets see how the Panamera Turbo keeps its value after 12 months.

Cayenne Turbo S are discounted right now from some (unofficial ?) Porsche dealers with 12-15%. At a price tag of around 150000 EUR with options, this is nothing. The day the car has been registered, the value falls at least by 50%. No thanks, Sir.

Same actually with the X6 M I'm interested in: show cars with little mileage already go for under 100000 EUR "over the counter". New car price: around 123000 EUR. Shocking.

I'm not going to BUY another expensive car anymore, it just isn't worth it.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

The factory seems to have some sort of special offers (which apparently can be combined) until Dec. 31th.

The car in the show room is really nice, has all the options but not the 30HP power boost.

RC - that sounds like a great deal - sorry it fell through.  I wouldn't think 30HP is a very big deal on a car with over 450hp.  Is it very obvious when you drive it?
 

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello