Crown

F430/Scuderia already look so dated a few years ago, not to mention now, 458 is way better in everyway, especially the look.

The 458 is stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430, especially from side and rear. I cannot understand how someone could see too much similiarities to the 430, especially parked side by side.

Kreso, Kreso, obviously if we don't like the car we will not buy it.

Initially, when the PR pictures we published I thought the car was stunning though it bore some resemblance to the 430. But as I began to see more pictures not the PR ones, my liking for the car began to wane. Honestly, at least to me, it appeared to be somewhat disjointed and lacked the beautiful lines usually associated with Ferrari styling. it is as though they took a 430 and a said how can we change it looks as oppose to starting from scratch designing and building a new car. No doubt it is a different car from a technology standpoint. 

Porsche has been a master of this styling philosophy for years. It is not without some irony that Ferrari who has expressed their envy of Porsche profitability has now taken a step in a similar direction. Porsche produced the Boxster to attract customers to the brand and Ferrari now is producing the CA GT. If I didn't know better, I would think that Ferrari has stolen Porsche's playbook.

Will I buy it. Probably.

Front end is a big time fail

Ferdie:

The 458 is stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430, especially from side and rear. I cannot understand how someone could see too much similiarities to the 430, especially parked side by side.

The 458 is "stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430?" The rear of the 458 closer to the Enzo than the 430? ?????  Guess people see things differently, I find the 458 & 430 much closer to one another than the 458 to the Enzo, especially the rear.  To my eyes the Enzo's rear looks like a stretched out 430's rear. What about the 458 & Enzo's rear looks more alike to you than the Enzo & F430?  But I agree there are similar rear quarter body lines w/ the 458 & Enzo.

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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

Guess people see things differently,

 

That's an understatement.
 

STRADALE:

Ferdie:

The 458 is stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430, especially from side and rear. I cannot understand how someone could see too much similiarities to the 430, especially parked side by side.

 The 458 is "stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430?" The rear of the 458 closer to the Enzo than the 430? ?????  Guess people see things differently, I find the 458 & 430 much closer to one another than the 458 to the Enzo, especially the rear.  To my eyes the Enzo's rear looks like a stretched out 430's rear. What about the 458 & Enzo's rear looks more alike to you than the Enzo & F430?  But I agree there are similar rear quarter body lines w/ the 458 & Enzo.

Okay, I guess I have to give a more detailed explanation then... 

First of all, I did not mention that  Enzo and 458 would look the same, I referred to stylistical similiarities between the two. Ferrari started a different design philosophy with the Enzo, giving the car more technoid styling cues, carrying them over to the 599 and now featuring them on the 458 instead of the organic, round shapes and cues that have been seen on the 430. Even the top views that you provided do not look the same, if they do to you then please check again. Air inlets, front and tail lights, the bulges over the wheel arches as well as roof, the side window frames; all of these elements are angled on the 458 whereas they are of organic, rounded shape on the 430. Anyone should see that. The only elements that remain some similiarities to the 430 are the windscreen and, to some extent, the glass panel above the engine. On top of that, dimensions and proportions have been altered on the 458 as well.

The three-quarter shots from behind, mainly behind the B-pillar, show a much stronger resemblance between 458 and Enzo, especially the proportions of elements around the rear wheel. The striking difference between the 458 and remaining models is the integration of rear lighting into one single element, more akin to the California and 599. Ferrari certainly carried over some stylistical elements from the Enzo to the 430, namely taillights, center air outlet and arrangement of diffuser and exhaust tips but both cars have quite a different appearance in reality. Despite those similiarities, I can easily differentiate those two cars in reality.

There was a lot of debate when Ferrari launched the Enzo since its design was entirely different to the models back then. Stylistically, one can draw a line between Enzo, 599 and 458, different to 612 and California. I am fairly certain that Ferrari made this move on purpose to differentiate the more “family orientated” models (the later) to the more aggressive, “manly” models (the former). From a marketing point of view, this certainly makes sense. Let us continue the debate once you´ve seen the car in reality.

racerx:

STRADALE:

Guess people see things differently
 

That's an understatement.

Oh great, you drop in as well. Now contribute something productive...

Ferdie:

STRADALE:

Ferdie:

The 458 is stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430, especially from side and rear. I cannot understand how someone could see too much similiarities to the 430, especially parked side by side.

 The 458 is "stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430?" The rear of the 458 closer to the Enzo than the 430? ?????  Guess people see things differently, I find the 458 & 430 much closer to one another than the 458 to the Enzo, especially the rear.  To my eyes the Enzo's rear looks like a stretched out 430's rear. What about the 458 & Enzo's rear looks more alike to you than the Enzo & F430?  But I agree there are similar rear quarter body lines w/ the 458 & Enzo.

 

Okay, I guess I have to give a more detailed explanation then... 

First of all, I did not mention that  Enzo and 458 would look the same, I referred to stylistical similiarities between the two. Ferrari started a different design philosophy with the Enzo, giving the car more technoid styling cues, carrying them over to the 599 and now featuring them on the 458 instead of the organic, round shapes and cues that have been seen on the 430. Even the top views that you provided do not look the same, if they do to you then please check again. Air inlets, front and tail lights, the bulges over the wheel arches as well as roof, the side window frames; all of these elements are angled on the 458 whereas they are of organic, rounded shape on the 430. Anyone should see that. The only elements that remain some similiarities to the 430 are the windscreen and, to some extent, the glass panel above the engine. On top of that, dimensions and proportions have been altered on the 458 as well.

The three-quarter shots from behind, mainly behind the B-pillar, show a much stronger resemblance between 458 and Enzo, especially the proportions of elements around the rear wheel. The striking difference between the 458 and remaining models is the integration of rear lighting into one single element, more akin to the California and 599. Ferrari certainly carried over some stylistical elements from the Enzo to the 430, namely taillights, center air outlet and arrangement of diffuser and exhaust tips but both cars have quite a different appearance in reality. Despite those similiarities, I can easily differentiate those two cars in reality.

There was a lot of debate when Ferrari launched the Enzo since its design was entirely different to the models back then. Stylistically, one can draw a line between Enzo, 599 and 458, different to 612 and California. I am fairly certain that Ferrari made this move on purpose to differentiate the more “family orientated” models (the later) to the more aggressive, “manly” models (the former). From a marketing point of view, this certainly makes sense. Let us continue the debate once you´ve seen the car in reality.

I just dont see the cars the same. Remember when the 430 was launched, it was marketed as a baby brother to the Enzo?? Ferrari & all the mag's talked about the Enzo being a "big brother." Some of the "Styling" was based directly on the Enzo:  http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_200501_SS  Even the dual spoke wheels on the 430 were fashioned after the Enzo's wheels. Everyone mentioned the "Enzo influence" in the 430, ESPECIALLY the rear ; the Enzo & 430 rear are so similar, the Enzo's rear is just a stretched 430, I don't see it like you that the 458's rear looks more like the Enzo than the 430's does.  ........ What about the 458's rear looks more like an Enzo to you vs the 430 & Enzo???????? To my eye so far from just seeing pics the 458's rear looks entirely new, different, nothing like an Enzo.

The 458 vs 430 top views don't look the "same" just to me, I wasn't the one who created the comparison, I believe it was Ron & his comment was about revolution not evolution, I agree, the cars overall shape (458 & 430)  look very much alike. Much more so than comparing the Enzo to the 458. 

"all of these elements are angled on the 458 whereas they are of organic, rounded shape on the 430. "

I agree with you there is a similar body line in the rear quarters but besides that the 458's lines are much more curvy, more flowing & rounded.  I don't see the 430 as having a "rounded shape", just the opposite. On the 430 there is a taut, straight body crease that starts on the front fender & runs straight back all the way to the rear lights, there's a 2nd straight line under it that marks the top of the rocker panel that also runs all the way straight back. (see pic of my car below)  On the 458 these body lines are rounded, curved.  Even the vents on the Enzo & 430 are in the same location & same shape, the Enzo's are just larger, on the 458 those vents are on all the way in back of the car & almost hidden on the C pillar & instead of protruding like they do on both the Enzo & 430 they are inside the car's body lines.  

But the over all shape of the 458 is so similar to the 430 I doubt people that aren't car nuts like us would realize they're different cars going down the road. On the other hand anyone will probably be able to tell an Enzo from a 458, you don't have to see the car in person to realize that. 

Huh?? The 599 is stylistically like the Enzo? We'll have to agree to disagree there too, I've been around both cars together many times, driven along with them together a # of times too, in fact was just looking at both when I dropped my car off for service 3 hrs ago  & they couldn't look more different imo.   We'll have to agree to disagree. 

You can see the straight lines on this pic too, I wouldnt describe the shape as "organic, rounded", in fact I'd say the 430 is "angled" Funny/interesting but our descriptions of both cars are exactly OPPOSITE of one another. You see the 430 as "organic/ rounded" & I see the 430 as "angled":

You see the 458 as "angled" to me it's the opposite; the 458 is "organic, rounded", all the body lines are curved, I don't see one straight line on the car : 

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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

But the over all shape of the 458 is so similar to the 430 I doubt people that aren't car nuts like us would realize they're different cars going down the road. On the other hand anyone will probably be able to tell an Enzo from a 458, you don't have to see the car in person to realize that.

So people can differentiate the 458 from the Enzo but not from the 430... I thought Enzo and 430 share so many similiarities that they should be both hard to differentiate from the 458?

STRADALE:

Funny/interesting but our descriptions of both cars are exactly OPPOSITE of one another.

Realzeus made an appropriate comment on the other post that just reflects my opinion (sorry for borrowing your lines), stating that he regards the 458 as much more futuristic than a 430 ( the 360 looks dated IMO). Seen together (in pictures at least), the 458 looks cutting edge compared to the (still stunning) 430. Ferrari had to live with certain styling cues on the 430 that they were able to dismiss on the 458. They had already found a decent balance between organic and angular shapes on the 430 in comparison to the 360 but it stands no comparison to the 458 or even Enzo on that account. Excuse my language skills if it does not come across properly but the Enzo and 458 certainly make a much different impression on the beholder than the 430, in fact all changes made on the Scuderia has addressed this, featuring more angular airinlets on the front and a broad CF strip on the back that make the car appear even wider than the reg. 430.

STRADALE:

The 599 is stylistically like the Enzo? We'll have to agree to disagree there too, I've been around both cars together many times, driven along with them together a # of times too, in fact was just looking at both when I dropped my car off for service 3 hrs ago  & they couldn't look more different imo.   We'll have to agree to disagree.

I suppose you don´t want to understand my comment. Ferrari started a different direction in terms of design with the Enzo, followed by the 599 and now be featured on the 458. These cues are different to the ones on the 430, 612 and California and I even gave you the explanation for that above. So, please understand the difference between stylistical similiarities (or styling cues) and a similiar appearance. The 599 and Enzo certainly do not look like each other but they feature a similiar design philosophy, such as Boxster and 911 share the same philosophy but do not look the same. Simple...

Anyways, just take a closer look once you see the car in person and we can talk again.

Ferdie:

STRADALE:

But the over all shape of the 458 is so similar to the 430 I doubt people that aren't car nuts like us would realize they're different cars going down the road. On the other hand anyone will probably be able to tell an Enzo from a 458, you don't have to see the car in person to realize that.

So people can differentiate the 458 from the Enzo but not from the 430... I thought Enzo and 430 share so many similiarities that they should be both hard to differentiate from the 458? - For the 3rd time for those in the cheap seats - The overall shape of the 430 & 458 are very similar, so similar that as probably a dozen people here have already commented & realized  (except you) you probably couldnt tell the difference between the 458 & 430 driving down the road. I never said you couldnt tell a 430 from an Enzo,  I said the 430 had much more in common style wise to the Enzo, as Ferrari intended & marketed the car, the 430 coming to market such a short time after the Enzo. You should easily tell an Enzo from a 430 or from a 458 even though the 430 shares so much of the Enzo's rear styling, etc.  It's not that complicated; you've said the 458 looks stylistically like the Enzo;  so far you're the first one I've heard say that. I still don't see why you think they look so similar. 

 

STRADALE:

Funny/interesting but our descriptions of both cars are exactly OPPOSITE of one another.

 

Realzeus made an appropriate comment on the other post that just reflects my opinion (sorry for borrowing your lines), stating that he regards the 458 as much more futuristic than a 430 ( the 360 looks dated IMO). Seen together (in pictures at least), the 458 looks cutting edge compared to the (still stunning) 430. Ferrari had to live with certain styling cues on the 430 that they were able to dismiss on the 458. They had already found a decent balance between organic and angular shapes on the 430 in comparison to the 360 but it stands no comparison to the 458 or even Enzo on that account. Excuse my language skills if it does not come across properly but the Enzo and 458 certainly make a much different impression on the beholder than the 430, in fact all changes made on the Scuderia has addressed this, featuring more angular airinlets on the front and a broad CF strip on the back that make the car appear even wider than the reg. 430. - In your prior post you said the 430 was "organic The 430 -

 

STRADALE:

The 599 is stylistically like the Enzo? We'll have to agree to disagree there too, I've been around both cars together many times, driven along with them together a # of times too, in fact was just looking at both when I dropped my car off for service 3 hrs ago  & they couldn't look more different imo.   We'll have to agree to disagree.

I suppose you don´t want to understand my comment. Ferrari started a different direction in terms of design with the Enzo, followed by the 599 and now be featured on the 458. These cues are different to the ones on the 430, 612 and California and I even gave you the explanation for that above. So, please understand the difference between stylistical similiarities (or styling cues) and a similiar appearance. The 599 and Enzo certainly do not look like each other but they feature a similiar design philosophy, such as Boxster and 911 share the same philosophy but do not look the same. Simple... - You should tell Ferrari about your opinion because the 430 was marketed all as a "baby Enzo", the 430's rear styling was based on the Enzo.  The 599 was not based on anything from the Enzo.  There's no similarity that can be drawn from the Enzo to the 599,  & none that can be seen from the 599 to the 458 in fact they couldn't be more different so I honestly don't know where you got your: "design with the Enzo, followed by the 599 and now be featured on the 458"  styling theory............  "similar design philosophy" between the 599 & Enzo like the "Boxster & 911"???????? What?!?!  huh? For a couple of years the Boxster & 911 shared the same front lights, same doors, etc.  From the front at a distance you couldn't tell them apart.  What styling aspects of the Enzo do you see on the 599? The 599 was based more on the 550/575 than styling/ "design philosophy"  from the Enzo.  And the 430 has NOTHING at all to do w/ the styling of the 612 nor the California for that matter. They  have nothing in common style wise............... You started this conversation stating the 458 looked more like the Enzo's rear than the 430 looked like the Enzo, for the 3rd time - What about the 458's rear looks stylistically like the Enzo?    

Anyways, just take a closer look once you see the car in person and we can talk again. - Above you said: "the 458 certainly make a much different impression on the beholder than the 430" but now you're advising I get a look at the 458 in person? Great, until then we'll just have to make do with your insightful views of the "impression" of a car that I've owned for the last 3 yrs & whether it's "angular  or organic"...  Maybe you need to see a 430 & Enzo together in person.  Yeah, yeah I know, you've seen them together a thousand times, yada, yada..... I should have just listened to Tom from the beginning. 

If you still think the 458 doesn't have the same overall shape as the 430, instead the 458 looks more like the Enzo from looking at the below,  it's silly to continue. I advise you go have another look at a 430 & Enzo together, or let me know & I'll take some pics of the 430 & Enzo together & post them on the internet for your analysis. For now cheers gotta go pick up my "organic, rounded" 430.

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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

Above you said: "the 458 certainly make a much different impression on the beholder than the 430" but now you're advising I get a look at the 458 in person?

I still stand by my above comment but since you don´t seem to understand my explanations (and assume you won´t in the future) I politely advised you to reserve your judgement until you´ve seen the car in person. It is indeed exhaustive to search for the correct terms and phrases with a native speaker but I suppose the terms corporate identity and corporate design should ring a bell even for you. 

If not, then I´d know a perfectly appropriate saying that comes to mind but I won´t mention on this open-minded board.

Ferdie:

STRADALE:

Above you said: "the 458 certainly make a much different impression on the beholder than the 430" but now you're advising I get a look at the 458 in person?

 

I still stand by my above comment but since you don´t seem to understand my explanations (and assume you won´t in the future) I politely advised you to reserve your judgement until you´ve seen the car in person. It is indeed exhaustive to search for the correct terms and phrases with a native speaker but I suppose the terms corporate identity and corporate design should ring a bell even for you. 

If not, then I´d know a perfectly appropriate saying that comes to mind but I won´t mention on this open-minded board.

RE: "corporate identity and corporate design" - Sure that's what was at work when they designed the rear of the 430 to give it a "baby Enzo" look. That's obviously what was at work when they designed, evolved the 458 because it's overall shape is so much like the prior car; the F430.. The photo showing the view  of both cars from above speaks volumes. 

I'd still be interested in hearing an answer to my question about what you see as being stylistically the same with the 458's & Enzo's rear.

Yes, "even for me". After a couple of cars and 6 yrs of passionate Ferrari ownership, meeting & driving with hundreds of other Ferrari owners during numerous rally's events, etc & trips overseas to the Maranello factory, museum, etc. it's enlightening to hear YOUR Ferrari "corporate identity and corporate design" "explanation" & what the rationale behind my F430 is REALLY all about.   

Thanks for informing me you were going to insult me but have reserved doing so.  That takes guts.

PS: Your English is just fine, great in fact, I wouldn't have even known it's not your native tongue/ I don't speak a word of German so I cant even pretend to compete with you there.......... But English isn't your problem ,,,,,,,,it's your eyesight that needs a tune up!!!!!!

 
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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

racerx:

 

Thanks Tom, HELP!!!!!!!!

gurggle, gurggle,,,gurgg

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

I'd still be interested in hearing an answer to my question about what you see as being stylistically the same with the 458's & Enzo's rear. [...]

I still don´t believe that you are interested in an open discussion, you are trying to prove your point and it´s hard to believe that any further comments/input will make a difference but I am willing to be proven differently...

- The DLOs (daylight openings) on the 430 are rounded in shape, including the side and rear window. The sidewindow profile ends in a bow on the 430, in a sharp angle on both the 458 and Enzo.

- take a close look, how the rear window (engine cover) is framed by the rear fenders on the 458 and now decide whether it resembles more closely the 430 or Enzo (of course, I know your answer).

- take a look at the airinlets on all three models, they are slanted and angled on both the 458 and Enzo, organic on the 430 (of course, the Scuderia features slanted airintakes in the front bumper as I pointed out further above).

- the front fenders on the 458 form a crease with the bonnet (as seen on the top view), whereas they are bulged on the 430. I think, even Tom and you will realize how technical appearing they are on the Enzo.

- both the 458 and the Enzo feature a slanted roofpanel, whereas the 430 (surprise!) does not!

- if I take a look at the top views, I see a crease on the 458´s rear fender that goes directly to the rear light, the one on the Enzo is further outward and frames the rear. I can´t see any crease on the topview on the 430 (there is a crease on the sideview)

- the headlights on the 430 have certainly been more angular than on the 360 but stand no comparison to the ones on the Enzo and even more so the 458 (incl. the airinlets on the later)

- the transition from side to rear panel is formed by a crease on the Enzo, a rounded crease on the 458 but entirely rounded on the 430 which is one of the prominent differences to the two former.

- the relation of height and width between rear fender, rearwindow and roof are more similiar on the 458 and the Enzo compared to the 430.

Ferrari transferred elements from the Enzo to the 430 (taillights, airoutlet, exhaust tips) but they make a completely different impression on these two cars. Ferrari utilized some tricks on the 430 to give it the desired proportional appearance. Just because one uses similiar elements on two cars does not mean it resembles the same car. The Enzo, and I repeat myself here, started a new and different design philosophy at Ferrari whereas the 430 had to be evolved out of the 360, being left with stylistical compromises. Everyone should be able to see an organic shape on the later.

I still cannot get over the fact that 458 and 430 would appear similiar to you...

STRADALE:

PS: Your English is just fine, great in fact, I wouldn't have even known it's not your native tongue/

Thanks for the kind compliment but I have to say that it does get more difficult once involving technical terms. I´d be happy to prove my point personally once you´re in the region.

With kindest respect, I will leave Tom´s (racerx) opinion and behaviour on this forum uncommented but it does leave a certain image that you are more attached to his opinions than others.

At the heart of this discussion is the following opposing opinions on the style of the 458:

Your opinion:

"all of these elements are angled on the 458 whereas they are of organic, rounded shape on the 430."

Mine:

" I wouldn't describe the 430's shape as "organic, rounded", in fact I'd say the 430 is "angled"... Funny/interesting but our descriptions of both cars are exactly OPPOSITE of one another. You see the 430 as "organic/ rounded" & I see the 430 as "angled".....The 458's lines are much more curvy, more flowing & rounded..../On the 458 these body lines are rounded, curved"

I received my Automobile mag yesterday/see underlined:

Automobile re: 458 : "curvaceous", "rounded".

Huh, sounds familiar, doesnt it? Almost sounds like "curvy", "rounded" yes? / no?

-----------------------------------

RE your : "I still cannot get over the fact that 458 and 430 would appear similiar to you"

I cant get over the fact that you feel the 458 looks more like an Enzo then it looks like a 430. 

I mean there is an obvious evolution from the 360 to the 430 & now the 458. And from actual photographs that evolution is even more apparent,,,,,, imo the first  PS pics of the 458 highlighting the curvaceous body lines made the car look more different than the actual pictures. The 3 cars (360, 430, 458) share almost the same overall shape.  The shape of the roof, windows, they are very similar. The whole body, the size of the panels & where they all connect; similar........ Look at the comparison Ron posted  where you are looking at the 458 & 430 from above. It's like you're pulling my leg that you think the 458 looks more like an Enzo.  As other people here have already commented after mistaking a 430 on the video for a  458, the cars overall shape are VERY similar. People that aren't car guys will probably not be able to tell them apart going down the road. Seriously, you really think people would more likely confuse an Enzo & a 458 vs a 458 & a 430???????? Obviously you think you're right & I guess there's no 100% right & wrong, it's opinion, but how many other people here have commented that the 458 looks just like an Enzo besides you? Now on this very short thread besides myself here's posts from 3 other people re: the 458 vs the 430:

1) "I will wait to see the undisguised real thing but it looks very much like a 360/430. In fact send all 3 past that gate area at speed and you would hard pressed to tell them apart."

2) "FWIW, the red car in the video is NOT a 458. it is a 430 or 430 Scud. Yep, it can be confusing"

3) "Somehow they all look the same to me"

------------------------------------

 
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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

Ferdie:

STRADALE:

PS: Your English is just fine, great in fact, I wouldn't have even known it's not your native tongue/

 

Thanks for the kind compliment but I have to say that it does get more difficult once involving technical terms. I´d be happy to prove my point personally once you´re in the region.

With kindest respect, I will leave Tom´s (racerx) opinion and behaviour on this forum uncommented but it does leave a certain image that you are more attached to his opinions than others.

You're welcome. I guess we'll have to wait till the 458 comes out to do any real life comparison's.

I'm not at all familiar w/ yours & Tom's 'issue' (please do tell)......... I guess you haven't been in the politics threads then. It's rare that Tom & I agree on anything, in fact we almost always disagree (except Nukes) but we have a lot of fun doing it & it's never been disrespectful, heated a little sometimes but never hurtful.............................  He just happens to be right about this 458 conversation as have "others".

I mean come on Ferdie:

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

 

 

It's like you're pulling my leg that you think the 458 looks more like an Enzo.  As other people here have already commented after mistaking a 430 on the video for a  458, the cars overall shape are VERY similar.

Gregg,

for heaven´s sake I did say that the Enzo and 458 utilize a new (and differing from the 430) design direction. Please re-read my initial two comments a dozen posts further above! I did not say or imply that these two look the same and I refuse to agree that 458 and 430´d look the same either. Anybody who´d say the later would lose any credibility in terms of stylistical subjects for me.

STRADALE:

Now on this very short thread besides myself here's posts from 3 other people re: the 458 vs the 430:

[...]

2) "FWIW, the red car in the video is NOT a 458. it is a 430 or 430 Scud. Yep, it can be confusing"

Just to prove that we are talking at cross-purposes, this comment came from Nick referring to the 458 prototype disguised in 430 bodypanels. The video showed, if I count correctly, four 458, two Californias and this particular prototype which can clearly be distinguished by the different wheel size combination. Nobody mistakenly commented on that particular vehicle so what does your reference intends to point out..?

Ferdie:

STRADALE:

 

 

It's like you're pulling my leg that you think the 458 looks more like an Enzo.  As other people here have already commented after mistaking a 430 on the video for a  458, the cars overall shape are VERY similar.

 

Gregg,

for heaven´s sake I did say that the Enzo and 458 utilize a new (and differing from the 430) design direction. Please re-read my initial two comments a dozen posts further above! I did not say or imply that these two look the same and I refuse to agree that 458 and 430´d look the same either. Anybody who´d say the later would lose any credibility in terms of stylistical subjects for me.

Your comments:

"Ferrari started a different design philosophy with the Enzo, giving the car more technoid styling cues, carrying them over to the 599 and now featuring them on the 458 instead of the organic, round shapes and cues that have been seen on the 430. Even the top views that you provided do not look the same, if they do to you then please check again. ..........; all of these elements are angled on the 458 whereas they are of organic, rounded shape on the 430. Anyone should see that. ."

"Stylistically, one can draw a line between Enzo, 599 and 458"

"The 458 is stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430"

A  few of the pics I've personally taken of Enzo's & 599's, I just don't see it. The 599 was based on the 550/575, the body doesn't have anything in common with the Enzo or 458......  

"The 458 is stylistically closer to the Enzo than to the 430" ??

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

Ferdie:

STRADALE:

Now on this very short thread besides myself here's posts from 3 other people re: the 458 vs the 430:

[...]

2) "FWIW, the red car in the video is NOT a 458. it is a 430 or 430 Scud. Yep, it can be confusing"

 

Just to prove that we are talking at cross-purposes, this comment came from Nick referring to the 458 prototype disguised in 430 bodypanels. The video showed, if I count correctly, four 458, two Californias and this particular prototype which can clearly be distinguished by the different wheel size combination. Nobody mistakenly commented on that particular vehicle so what does your reference intends to point out..?

The pictures of the un-disguised 458 were already out, so why would someone mistake a 458 for one with 430 body panels?

I think you just proved my point.

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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

The 599 was based on the 550/575, the body doesn't have anything in common with the Enzo or 458......

In which way is the 599 supposed to be based on the 550/575? Concept, chassis or design? You certainly tell me something new here...

In all friendship, I don´t have the feeling you understand what I am talking about. Post as many references or pictures as you like, it doesn´t make a difference. I rest my case here as I am tired to repeat all of the same sentences without getting appropriate feedback and simply not willing to spend so much time searching for the correct terms and phrases. Try to discover the meaning of design or styling cues, it might indicate what I am trying to tell since several posts.

STRADALE:

The pictures of the un-disguised 458 were already out, so why would someone mistake a 458 for one with 430 body panels?

It shows that Nick can correctly identify a 430, even if it hides the successor´s drivetrain. Nobody else doubted this, neither prior nor after his particular comment. So yes, even in this "configuration" people can differentiate the two respective models (430 & 458)... which, errhh, proves my point, doesn´t it?

Once again, I appreciate your contributions but let us come to an end. We won´t easily agree as we are obviously debating on two entirely different subjects here. Cheers...

If I remember this thread was named "new video of the 458" not "post every Ferrari pic and you tube clip I have!"

Ferdie:

STRADALE:

The 599 was based on the 550/575, the body doesn't have anything in common with the Enzo or 458......

In which way is the 599 supposed to be based on the 550/575? Concept, chassis or design? You certainly tell me something new here...

In all friendship, I don´t have the feeling you understand what I am talking about. Post as many references or pictures as you like, it doesn´t make a difference. I rest my case here as I am tired to repeat all of the same sentences without getting appropriate feedback and simply not willing to spend so much time. Try to discover the meaning of design or styling cues, it might indicate what I am trying to tell since several posts.

 

STRADALE:

The pictures of the un-disguised 458 were already out, so why would someone mistake a 458 for one with 430 body panels?

 

It shows that Nick can correctly identify a 430, even if it hides the upcoming 458´s drivetrain. Nobody else doubted this, neither prior nor after his particular comment. So yes, even in this "configuration" people can differentiate the two respective models (430 & 458)... which proves my point, doesn´t it?

Once again, I appreciate your contributions but let us come to an end. We won´t easily agree as we are debating on two entirely different subjects here. Cheers...

To take a picture you first have to be there to see the cars (Enzo, 599) in person, something that is just a little important considering this conversation & something I sense you haven't done very frequently or at all, who knows. ..........  So tell me what about the 599 is "stylistically" like the Enzo? 

You realize the 599 is the successor to the 550/575 right? So why is that such a surprise?

No, actually that has nothing to do w/ that. Someone looked at what appears to be a 430 mistaking it for a 458.

REALLY? So how do you explain this:

nberry: "Initially, when the PR pictures we published I thought the car was stunning though it bore some resemblance to the 430. But as I began to see more pictures not the PR ones, my liking for the car began to wane. Honestly, at least to me, it appeared to be somewhat disjointed and lacked the beautiful lines usually associated with Ferrari styling. it is as though they took a 430 and a said how can we change it looks as oppose to starting from scratch designing and building a new car. No doubt it is a different car from a technology standpoint."
 

&

nberry:  "FWIW, the red car in the video is NOT a 458. it is a 430 or 430 Scud. Yep, it can be confusing".

Porsche-Jeck: "Somehow they all look the same to me"

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So guess that settles it then since you give up.   Come on, I'll let you get the last word, go ahead:

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08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

Once again, I have enjoyed another "debate" on Rennteam, thanks Gregg   

STRADALE:

So guess that settles it then since you give up. 

I beg your pardon? You are not answering my comments, just repeatedly stating the same things and posting ridiculous amounts of pictures. Why should I waste my time with this? If I understand correctly, you were the one who didn´t realize the linkage of the 458´s exhaust to the F40 on the other post...

... and you still haven´t told me in which way the 599 is based on its predecessor? You see, if we get finicky about the choice of words then please stick to your own principles. 

Here are a couple of pictures from 599´s design development. It should be obvious to most people, that Ferrari chose a different design route than on its predecessor or than actual remaining models and provided the car with a much more technical looking appearance. Price question: which other Ferrari model was launched with a technical, geometrical shape before...? 

Alternating concepts from development: