07.08.2009 20:34:50
I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.
At the end of the day, it just comes down to what people are used to IMHO...
Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection
Wonderbar:
Would someone explain why paddles should be on the column, not the wheel? Seems like you want them on the wheel so you can shift as you turn if necessary. What am I missing here? Thanks in advance.
Interesting question, I think it comes down to how you should hold the steering wheel and when it's ok to shift?
07.08.2009 20:55:12
easy_rider911:
I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.
At the end of the day, it just comes down to what people are used to IMHO...
Yes to all points. And no one has mentioned this and I could be off, but just from looking at the pictures I see another problem: the new moving PDK paddles are different from the previous PDK buttons in an important way. Here is why:
1. The previous PDK buttons move with steering wheel, but up and down shift are in both buttons and are the same motion, forward for one shift, backward for the other. You can't choose the "wrong" button because both function similarly.
2. The new PDK paddles move with the steering wheel, but down shift is in one paddle and up is in the other. I see great potential for mis-shifting as they move around and one loses track of their position.
So of the 3 choices:
a. Fixed paddles
b. Moving buttons
c. Moving paddles
C might actually be the WORST possible combination of all the features . I guess we'll see what the reviewers have to say.
Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )
07.08.2009 20:59:52
easy_rider911:
I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.
All true.
You could also have added "....... but you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway".
fritz
fritz:
easy_rider911:
I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.
All true.
You could also have added "....... but you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway".
I can't resist replying...
(start rant)
If you lose track of the position of your steering wheel, you shouldn't be driving a car like this.
Not changing gears in mid-turn? You've got to be kidding, right? Try going around parabolica in Monza without shifting gears mid-turn... Most long "unwinding" corners should be taken while upshifting mid-corner.
I suppose people saying you shouldn't change gears mid-corner are the same people who are saying you should always brake in a straight line.
(rant over)
Wonderbar:
Would someone explain why paddles should be on the column, not the wheel? Seems like you want them on the wheel so you can shift as you turn if necessary. What am I missing here? Thanks in advance.
As Easy and some of the others pointed out, that only works if you keep your hands at the 10 to 2 position. If you're negotiating a very tight turn like a hairpin you might have to let go of the 10 to 2 position to turn the wheel more and it will be very easy to loose track of where the paddles are. F ex if you turn the wheel 1 1/2 rotations so that the top of the wheel is at the bottom, the paddles will be reversed so that the + (change up) is on the left side (and the paddle is upside down)
With the paddles on the coloumn they're always in the same place and you can take one hand briefly off the wheel to change gear even when driving/turning very actively.
--
10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"
20 GOTO 10
30 RUN
SlvSurfer:
500 hp? thats it? they should have brought that out like 3 years ago.
The turbo stands no chance anymore.
Why is that? Even with 480hp there were few cars out there which were faster. A GTR for example is slower in the straight line even compared to a TT with 480hp. Now, if they upgrade to 500hp: which cars are faster?
The critical point is track performance. The pre-FL TT suffered from its AWD setup. With a new AWD setup and the most recent Cup tires the TT might match the GTR lap times (but be able to do more than just 1-2 laps before overheating).
What else should one ask for? And then: there is also the GT2 if the TT is not fast enough
Wonderbar:
Would someone explain why paddles should be on the column, not the wheel? Seems like you want them on the wheel so you can shift as you turn if necessary. What am I missing here? Thanks in advance.
Having the paddles stay on the column ensures no matter how one turns the wheel, one can always find them
Imagine the manual shifter rotates as one turns, so 1,3,5 might be straight up when going straight, but they will be left when one turns left and right when turning right, and if the turn is tight enough, 1,3,5 might needs to be slotted backwards, see how frustrating that will be?
Ferrari absolutely got it right the with fixed big paddles on the columns, BMW had them rotates with the wheel but at least the shifter stays and one can always ignore the useless ones on the wheel and use the floor one.
activa:
fritz:
easy_rider911:
I assume it is because: (1) the paddles would always be in the same place (2) it's what people are used to on other cars (3) it wouldn't involve 'searching' for the paddles if one is in mid-turn but where one's hands are no longer in the '10 to 2' position.
All true.
You could also have added "....... but you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway".I can't resist replying...
(start rant)
If you lose track of the position of your steering wheel, you shouldn't be driving a car like this.
Not changing gears in mid-turn? You've got to be kidding, right? Try going around parabolica in Monza without shifting gears mid-turn... Most long "unwinding" corners should be taken while upshifting mid-corner.
I suppose people saying you shouldn't change gears mid-corner are the same people who are saying you should always brake in a straight line.
(rant over)
I take your point about accelerating out of long, "low-steering-angle" corners and won't get involved in a semantic discussion of whether they really qualify for the use of the expression "mid-turn" as intended here.
Maybe we can agree on: "If you lose track of the position of your steering wheel, you shouldn't be changing gears in mid-turn anyway"?
fritz
The 'new' torque vector system is similiar to X6 and possiblly GT-R's awd system, with it GT-R can kind of skirt around the laws of physics to make an elephant goes around a turn faster, which is the primary advantage it has over the original Turbo.
I have to imagine the .2 Turbo with PDK and new awd system will be again another golden benchmark for others to shoot at, once the competitions caught up with the .2, Porsche more than likely will again have something a little better, keep raising the bar little by little.
07.08.2009 21:59:07
I've just spent a very interesting evening configuring a fully loaded 997.2 TT on the German Porsche website. It's easy to spend 190 thousand Euros
--
Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection
07.08.2009 22:03:39
Whoopsy:
The 'new' torque vector system is similiar to X6 and possiblly GT-R's awd system, with it GT-R can kind of skirt around the laws of physics to make an elephant goes around a turn faster, which is the primary advantage it has over the original Turbo.
I have to imagine the .2 Turbo with PDK and new awd system will be again another golden benchmark for others to shoot at, once the competitions caught up with the .2, Porsche more than likely will again have something a little better, keep raising the bar little by little.
+1
Nothing surprising, but a nice Porsche evolutionary step in the 911 turbo books
1980 Mercedes-Benz 240d 2.4L Diesel 74 hp Olive Green on Tan or Black on red (looking to buy)
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out)
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)
07.08.2009 22:07:18
easy_rider911:
I've just spent a very interesting evening configuring a fully loaded 997.2 TT on the German Porsche website. It's easy to spend 190 thousand Euros
Spending money was always easy - earning it takes a little more effort.
fritz
Reality check;
First, the TT does not compete with the 456. Totally different clientel. 456 owners usually have owned Ferrari's for quite awhile and those that haven't are speculators. Buyers of the TT intend the car to be a daily driver. The same can be said for the Lambo. Very few TT owners step up to a 456 , lambo or even AM. The TT really does not have competition in its price range at least until the MB SLS is introduced.
Second, since Porsche is well aware of the above facts, they have no interest or desire to load expenses to the car. It will sell with minimal advancement. The GT2 is no concern since its volume is negligible.
Third, having the paddles on the wheel instead of the column is not all bad. To maximize entry and exist speed the shifting should be done before substantial wheel turning. To shift mid-turn often unsettles the car and there will be a lost of speed and entry and exit points. Fritz, you are right BTW, if I recall correctly, the MB SLS has the paddles on the wheel but I am not entirely sure.
MB is another idiotic company whose 'market research' goes against conventional thinking, or everyone else just don't want to give Ferrari proper credit and use the fixed paddles on the column. At least Lambo got it and put them on the column, tiny paddle and all.
07.08.2009 22:53:17
Guys at least Porsche still offers the stick shift ;) Something F cars have lost
1980 Mercedes-Benz 240d 2.4L Diesel 74 hp Olive Green on Tan or Black on red (looking to buy)
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out)
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)
07.08.2009 23:26:00
It is impressive that Porsche offers for a same model 2 high-end and so disinct variants (GT3 and tt) with so much innovative features (DI, dynamic engine blocks, PDK, etc). It only highlights how much money and resources Porsche invests in the 911 Program, thus emphasing how crucial this model is for the brand.
From my understanding, the PVT system decelerates the inner rearwheel as soon as one starts to turn into a corner, transferring torque to the outer wheel. This works in conjunction with the LSD on the rear axle, which is included. That is different to the active differentials that are used by Mitsubishi, Audi or BMW.
500hp is certainly not surprising if one considers the acc. numbers with PDK which will be very similiar to the GT2´s with manual transmission. The sequential paddles are certainly a step forward and, afterall, the Turbo is still not a proper track car. Therefore the discussion whether those paddles are mounted on the steering wheel or column are somewhat secondary.
The new std. rims look much better than the previous ones but I still have to scratch my head whether bigger exhaust tips and that PDK badge on the steering wheel make sense on a daily driver, especially on the 911 Turbo which exudes a certain respectability. So why these gimmicks?
08.08.2009 03:46:44
08.08.2009 04:22:31
08.08.2009 06:29:58
Ferdie:
From my understanding, the PVT system decelerates the inner rearwheel as soon as one starts to turn into a corner, transferring torque to the outer wheel. This works in conjunction with the LSD on the rear axle, which is included. That is different to the active differentials that are used by Mitsubishi, Audi or BMW.
500hp is certainly not surprising if one considers the acc. numbers with PDK which will be very similiar to the GT2´s with manual transmission. The sequential paddles are certainly a step forward and, afterall, the Turbo is still not a proper track car. Therefore the discussion whether those paddles are mounted on the steering wheel or column are somewhat secondary.
How Porsche do it may differs than others but the end result is the same, it makes a car corner faster, closer to the physical limit than normal.
I just had an interesting conversation with a MB marketing exec tonight over dinner, and I found out why the trend towards dual function buttons over the last few years.
MB research indicated that their subjects prefer to drive the car with ONE hand while the other hand is occupied with a phone, drink, cigarettes or whatever, and their driving hand resides on the 3 or 9 position, hence the dual function button for them to 'use'. On their AMG cars, single function button is used because the left-down-right-up style is perceived as 'sporty' by their subjects, a la Ferrari style. Their initial button style was considered not 'sporty' enough so they went to the little paddles as bigger ones will be cumbersome for their customers because they rotates with the wheel. I asked about fixed paddles vs the one that rotates, and the answer was it was too Ferrari-ish, and it was cheaper to simply change a tiny part than engineering a brand new steering column. Also, their subjects didn't show enough interest for a column mount paddles.
I imagine Porsche, BMW had the same result from their 'marketing research studies', maybe they even had the same group of useless subjects.
temm:
Gnil:
Boxster Coupe GTS:
...that 3-spoke sports steering wheel with PDK paddles looks awesome!
It looks good BUT the paddles need to be on the column, not on the steering wheel !!!!
Finally
Can they be retrofitted, or do you have to buy a new car Eric
--10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"
20 GOTO 10
30 RUN
a new car of course !!!!
Seriously, I will not retrofit that steering wheel/paddles. I got used to the puddles and the change would not be worth it. They need to be on the column for track use. Like this it is worth less.
To me the 997.2 is what I was expecting. There is never a huge step forward with a face lift. But Porsche needs to take a big step with the 991, as competitiong is far too close novadays ( if not better sometimes)
Ziggy:
It is impressive that Porsche offers for a same model 2 high-end and so disinct variants (GT3 and tt) with so much innovative features (DI, dynamic engine blocks, PDK, etc). It only highlights how much money and resources Porsche invests in the 911 Program, thus emphasing how crucial this model is for the brand.
You are 100% right: one could also add PCCB, VTG, PASM, this new "vectoring" AWD setup, the variable engine mounts, etc. etc. And then there is the amazing attention to details: it does make a difference, for example, whether the fuel gauge is totally incorrect on the track (Ferrari) or precise (Porsche), it does make a difference whether the steering wheel is too thick if you wear gloves on the track (Ferrari) or not (Porsche), it does make a difference if a car produces error messages every month or so or not...
Those who use their cars under more extreme conditions will very likely appreciate the quality Porsche offers as compared to the Italien manufacturers... The reason to buy a Ferrari are different reasons: you buy the car even though it has severe flaws
08.08.2009 08:36:28
Alex_997TT:
Mod'ing a facelift Turbo especially with PDK is going to be a very high risk and expensive venture. I saw on another forum that someone had spoken to Ruf about the new engine and was told it was nowhere near as strong as the (now classic) GT1 engine was. Also, as far as I am aware the PDK variant in the new Turbo has a max torque capacity of 700Nm and this is already hit with stock overboost! So even an aftermarket exhaust addition on it's own willl probably over exert your PDK box. I personally think the new Turbo is a good thing for people who leave their cars stock, but if you want a better sounding exhaust and more than 500bhp then you need a 997.1 Turbo as a base to do this with.
Sounds reasonable. Just think of the cost of changing the all new PDK in the 997.2TT after finding out that the increase in hp one tried was a bit too much for this brand new development....
MKSGR:
Those who use their cars under more extreme conditions will very likely appreciate the quality Porsche offers as compared to the Italien manufacturers... The reason to buy a Ferrari are different reasons: you buy the car even though it has severe flaws
Very correct comments
Moreover, people who buy Ferraris don't drive them enough and in variable conditions to realise their flaws. If you look at pre-owned Ferraris they have all done so little mileage.
--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts
reginos:
MKSGR:
Those who use their cars under more extreme conditions will very likely appreciate the quality Porsche offers as compared to the Italien manufacturers... The reason to buy a Ferrari are different reasons: you buy the car even though it has severe flaws
Very correct comments
Moreover, people who buy Ferraris don't drive them enough and in variable conditions to realise their flaws. If you look at pre-owned Ferraris they have all done so little mileage.
That's true, most Ferrari owners don't make adequate use of their cars. I would actually argue that the quality of recent production Ferrari cars is quite good as far as their mechanical substance is concerned. You can drive these cars very hard on the track - and they can do it.
Then, on the other hand, their are many, many flaws you will observe on a daily basis which mostly do not limit the usability of the car but still give you an irritating feel...