Crown

easy_rider911:

Also, the GT1 engine was just too expensive and in today's financial climate, that matters.

Yes, but it doesn't look as though they lowered the price (to increase sales) - just increased the profit margins, right?
 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello.  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2

Grant:

easy_rider911:

Also, the GT1 engine was just too expensive and in today's financial climate, that matters.

Yes, but it doesn't look as though they lowered the price (to increase sales) - just increased the profit margins, right?
 

+1

Exactly, I was referring to production cost reductions for PAG's financial benefit. We both know better than to expect PAG would implement such changes to enable the price paid by the customer to go down 

I guess PAG's counter argument would be that cutting engine costs enables them to attribute a bigger portion of the price paid by the customer towards the other features/technologies now on offer.

Further, PAG might argue that the 997.1 TT had smaller profit margins vis-a-vis the other 911 models because of the GT1 engine and that this DFI engine allows PAG to implement a more realistic profit margin.

My observation has been that PAG operates in such a way that, for every new model introduction, prices always go up BUT that PAG calculates how much 'real value' to offer by way of greater power/performance, increased standard features etc.

--
 

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

Boxster Coupe GTS:

...that 3-spoke sports steering wheel with PDK paddles looks awesome!

I wonder if it will be possible to get the thin bit of leather at the top centre of the steering wheel rim in a deviating colour - rather like the GT3?

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

How many TT customers will Porsche lose to Lamborghini or Ferrari because the new TT is not quite up to their specifications?  Is this a factor that Porsche needs to consider?

Generally the .2 is nice, but too bad Porsche still doesn't get it, paddles for shifting gear belongs on the steering COLUMN, not sterring wheel. Oh well, at least they got half right with proper single function paddles.

Those RS Spyder wheels are expensive - €3,500 according to the German web-site; the other new options too - steerable lights, sport chrono is a whopping €4k, torque vector thingey, €1500 IIRC.

In the UK, the car comes with the phone module, parking sensors, iPod connector, roof, VTS, top tint as standard.

From an aesthetic point of view they did a good job. The new wheels are an improvement! I'm not too sure about the new engine though, I think a lot of the performance gains this car will have over the .1 TT will be due to the PDK. In my opinion this is a bit of a cop-out by Porsche. They are behind the curve with the development of the TT when compared to the 458 (even the 430), the GT-R and the 560-4. I was expecting more power and some changes to the AWD system. Expectations were too high, I guess... Looking forward (more cautiously) to the next gen TT.

MarkN:

Those RS Spyder wheels are expensive - €3,500 according to the German web-site; the other new options too - steerable lights, sport chrono is a whopping €4k, torque vector thingey, €1500 IIRC.

 

From what I understood from the microsite the SC Plus option now includes the dynamic engine mounts, first seen on the new GT3 as optional extra. This explains the added cost.

The standard wheels are so nice IMO that you don't need the RS wheels unless they weigh much less.

The torque vectoring is instead of the LSD that was about 1.200 euro extra before.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

JoeRockhead:

 I was expecting more power and some changes to the AWD system.

Check out the optional Torque Vectoring System (big change to AWD - it's now like Mitsubishi EVO X)
 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello.  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2

Rossi:

Gnil:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

...that 3-spoke sports steering wheel with PDK paddles looks awesome!

It looks good BUT the paddles need to be on the column, not on the steering wheel !!!!

Well, we couldn't really expect that, all VW got their paddles at the steering wheel. 
 

Better than before, still ridiculous...

Only 20 more hp?

The only thing that can save this car is stellar NBR performance, else big yahn.

One thing surprises me - many people had been expecting that PAG would respond big time to the challenge from the GT-R by significantly increasing the numbers (even though this would be an atypical step for PAG). With only 20HP more, one can only assume that PAG didn't feel the need to act since it wasn't losing enough sales to the GT-R

It's also clear that PAG didn't want to harm sales of the GT2 and wanted to keep enough of a HP slot for a future 997 TTS to be accommodated in the line up.

But amidst all this re-positioning within the lengthy PAG 911 line-up, there's a danger that they have simply lost the plot vis-a-vis the stiff competition from Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Aston Martin and others.

Sometimes, I just have to scratch my head and wonder at how Porsche has allowed its position as a front runner to be overtaken. It's getting hard to see how one can continue to justify Porsche's leading image except in a historical sense or except to real Porsche fans for whom the GT3 is a sufficient flag-bearer. But what of the rest of the Porsche model range? I would love to see PAG regain its position as the maker of the 'best sportscar' without having to fall back on phrases like it's the 'best sportscar for the price', the 'best reliable sportscar' or the 'best all weather sportscar'.

--

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

www.teamspeed.com/forums/997-996-turbo/27235-porsche-releases-997-turbo-mkii-vids.html

Four PR vids as well

--
Gee Tee Two, dangit she is fun Chevy Tahoe, dangit are you a big pig

Grant:

JoeRockhead:

 I was expecting more power and some changes to the AWD system.

Check out the optional Torque Vectoring System (big change to AWD - it's now like Mitsubishi EVO X)
 

 Absolutely, I would also expect this feature to be the most important change as far as track performance is concerned.

Don't forget: Porsche claimed a 7.4x time for the 997TT on the NBR. Unfortunately, no independant test could ever verify that claim. The primary reason for that being the instable/unpredictable distribution of power between front and rear axle. Thus, a "reprogrammed" AWD could result in very substantial improvements of the NBR lap time.

Also:

- new Cup tires

- 20hp more

All this might result in a Supertest time of 7.40 +/-.

Let's wait for the Supertest 

 The optional steering wheel w/ the L/R paddles is straight out of a Mustang. :(

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

Grant:

JoeRockhead:

 I was expecting more power and some changes to the AWD system.

Check out the optional Torque Vectoring System (big change to AWD - it's now like Mitsubishi EVO X)
 

Missed that. There isn't much info on how their system works but it should be close to the BMW (X6) as both systems were designed by ZF. That should be helpful for track times! Still, you'd think for the price of the car it would be standard feature.

JoeRockhead:

Grant:

JoeRockhead:

 I was expecting more power and some changes to the AWD system.

Check out the optional Torque Vectoring System (big change to AWD - it's now like Mitsubishi EVO X)
 

Missed that. There isn't much info on how their system works but it should be close to the BMW (X6) as both systems were designed by ZF. That should be helpful for track times! Still, you'd think for the price of the car it would be standard feature.

I think it's a GKN product in co-operation with ZF.

As regards the extra cost you have to pay for it, it's no more scandalous than the PDK Modes being an optional extra

JoeRockhead:

Grant:

JoeRockhead:

 I was expecting more power and some changes to the AWD system.

Check out the optional Torque Vectoring System (big change to AWD - it's now like Mitsubishi EVO X)
 

Missed that. There isn't much info on how their system works but it should be close to the BMW (X6) as both systems were designed by ZF.

I think the tuning of software will be at least as important as the hardware and I expect it should be better than the BMW system.
 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello.  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2

Grant:

JoeRockhead:

Grant:

JoeRockhead:

 I was expecting more power and some changes to the AWD system.

Check out the optional Torque Vectoring System (big change to AWD - it's now like Mitsubishi EVO X)
 

Missed that. There isn't much info on how their system works but it should be close to the BMW (X6) as both systems were designed by ZF.

I think the tuning of software will be at least as important as the hardware and I expect it should be better than the BMW system.
 

I wonder if the new PTV is taken from AUDI, if so it will be a very good system.

PTV? So if you turn hard left, the inner rear tire (left) will be brakes to aid torque and counter inertia? Sounds so hightech!

1980 Mercedes-Benz 240d 2.4L Diesel 74 hp Olive Green on Tan or Black on red (looking to buy) 
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

Atzporsche:

PTV? So if you turn hard left, the inner rear tire (left) will be brakes to aid torque and counter inertia? Sounds so hightech!

And a good way to wear out the rear brakes at the track
 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello.  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2

easy_rider911:

 

Sometimes, I just have to scratch my head and wonder at how Porsche has allowed its position as a front runner to be overtaken. It's getting hard to see how one can continue to justify Porsche's leading image except in a historical sense or except to real Porsche fans

It's easy, Easy.
 

Slavish devotion to a 6 cyl. relic  (as nice as it is)

The CGT should have been an ongoing model not a one-off, priced lower that it was to recapture dev cost over time.

A stark need for an updated 928 to compete with all the other brands.

They have given up not only independence but any pretense as a leader.

Today there are many substitutes!

Atzporsche:

PTV? So if you turn hard left, the inner rear tire (left) will be brakes to aid torque and counter inertia? Sounds so hightech!

Here is a description of BMW's version, designed by the same company that designed the Porsche system:

The latest news out of GKN Driveline and ZF Friedrichshafen AG is that they have joined forces to produce a torque vectoring system that will be implemented by BMW. The system utilizes two electronic torque managing units that are essentially clutch type differentials, with the plate pressure controlled by voltage supplied to two electric motors. It will be able to independently adjust the torque split between two wheels, without the need for wheel slippage to occur initially. The technology is being dubbed VectorDrive and it's configurable for AWD and RWD vehicles. It's about time BMW joined the bandwagon in moving away from the open rear differential.

JoeRockhead:

Atzporsche:

PTV? So if you turn hard left, the inner rear tire (left) will be brakes to aid torque and counter inertia? Sounds so hightech!

 

Here is a description of BMW's version, designed by the same company that designed the Porsche system:

The latest news out of GKN Driveline and ZF Friedrichshafen AG is that they have joined forces to produce a torque vectoring system that will be implemented by BMW. The system utilizes two electronic torque managing units that are essentially clutch type differentials, with the plate pressure controlled by voltage supplied to two electric motors. It will be able to independently adjust the torque split between two wheels, without the need for wheel slippage to occur initially. The technology is being dubbed VectorDrive and it's configurable for AWD and RWD vehicles. It's about time BMW joined the bandwagon in moving away from the open rear differential.

Thanks Joe, that clarifies it much better than the brief german description on the 997.2TT special.

1980 Mercedes-Benz 240d 2.4L Diesel 74 hp Olive Green on Tan or Black on red (looking to buy) 
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

why are many people here so upset ? it's just a facelift. and from the standard's carrera's facelift  we knew that it would not be revolutionary...

let's see what piech has in store for us....i am sure he will make the 911 top of the pack again...

Boxster Coupe GTS:

...great to see the PDK paddles!

that's look like sh*t to me, very old fashion

Gnil:

Boxster Coupe GTS:

...that 3-spoke sports steering wheel with PDK paddles looks awesome!

It looks good BUT the paddles need to be on the column, not on the steering wheel !!!!

 

 

Finally

Can they be retrofitted, or do you have to buy a new car Eric

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10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

20 GOTO 10

30 RUN

JakeGt2:

www.teamspeed.com/forums/997-996-turbo/27235-porsche-releases-997-turbo-mkii-vids.html

Four PR vids as well

 

Thanks, these videos were shot in Norway, on the Atlantic Coast Road

10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

20 GOTO 10

30 RUN

temm:

 

Thanks, these videos were shot in Norway, on the Atlantic Coast Road

 

You have great nature there. Amazing for us!

The new Turbo IMO doesn't need more power, it needs better and more predictable handling at the limit, which will in trun allow for more efficient use of the available power and planting it on the road.

I'm looking foward to seeing how the new PTM & other chasis improvements affects performance on the ring. Also if the PDK makes the Carrera feel like it has 20-30 more HP due to the increase of efectiveness in the power delivery, I wonder what the seven speed PDK will do to the performance of the Turbo with all its Torque

I think these two (and the paddles) are the biggest things going for the MK-II, couldn't care less about its 0-100, straight line performance, or HP power figure bragging. Bring on the Supertest!

Its not like Porsche to listen to the people's input so if they now offer the paddles, the pressure to get rid of the stupid buttons must of been huge and overwhealming. Wonder what ratio of PDK buyers is going to choose the button option?

The new DFI engine brings some uncertainty as to if its going to be as bullet proof as the GT1 block since there is no experience yet to that effect, but its a logical move, the GT1 block seems to outlived its usefullness in todays standards of efficiency, contamination, etc. And its not like Porsche can't build a better engince than the one on the 997.1 Turbo, with each Turbo, over these years, each engine evolution only got better so this shouldn't be different, or at least we have no reason to think otherwise, so hanging to the GT1 block engine like its the last of the good ones is only wishful thinking at this time IMO.

I just hope they solved the engine sound problem of the 997.1TT! although the detrimental effect on exhaust sound the DFI had on the Carrera engine makes me doubt it though.

What an exciting time for the beloved Turbo! I have faith in Porsche engineers and expect the 997.2 Turbo to be "better" than 997.1 in most or all important aspects, in an evolutionary, not revolutionary way -- it has to be. Congrats to the new owners.

Wild prediction for ring times (anyone else more experienced/knowledgeable, please join in):
Without PDK: 7:45 - 6 seconds or so off current Turbo
With PDK: 7:40

YMMV & just my opinion, but I agree that the paddles should be on steering column, not steering wheel! Come on Porsche -- second time that you mess up a simple functional requirement! And whoever who designed that steering wheel that uses the cheap looking shiny material on the spokes should be fired.

The new wheel looks much better than 997.1, but still too linear (straight spokes) and doesn't go well with the curvy 911 form. That Center Lock Spyder wheel is something else -- beautiful.

I think anyone who thinks the 997.2 Turbo will be stiffer & more like GT3/GT2 with suspension tuning will be disappointed. My opinion is it is Porsche corporate philosophy, since 996 Turbo, that the Turbo will be more of a soft cruiser car, than a track car. The Turbo was selling very well as such and I don't see any change any time soon. In other words, welcome to Bilstein.
I agree with Carlos (if that's what you're saying ) that at this level of power and performance, and for amateurs, handling prowess/character is more important than horsepower rating.

I expect and hope PASM 2 to be different and better than current PASM.

For new owners, mark my words: You are going to change the stock exhaust. YOU ARE GOING TO CHANGE THE STOCK EXHAUST. You might as well start checking out Cargraphic/RS Tuning web site and this thread now. It's not logical and I don't exactly understand why, but I have found that good exhaust sound is an extremely important component to driving enjoyment.

PDK is a difficult choice: Will shave seconds off ring time and especially in amateur hands it will be incredibly fast as there is no drop in rpm/boost between shifts (pro's could shift without rpm drops partly because of amazing skills, partly because there is no regards to the gear box's longevity). But if you are to drive this car mainly on the streets, which is what it is meant to be, driver's involvement remains a question.

Also, if you are thinking about modding the ECU, which in my opinion is a must as it transforms a turbo, than manual is a better choice because I am fairly certain, having experienced the one(s) in mine, that an ECU tune might very well exceed the torque rating of the PDK. I shudder when I  think about the cost of replacing that PDK. 

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )