Crown

 Can,

will you finally order 997.2 `Turbo or wait for next generation one?

You have one of the best tuned IMO 997.1 Turbos so it;s interesting to know your approach.

cannga:

 

If 996 exhaust is not round, then THAT designer should be fired too!
There is just no reason for an exhaust tip to be any shape but round. There are always exceptions, but serious cars have round tips what, 99% of the times?

 Agreed. Round is good.  My bet is BMW's Design Chief Bangle ruined it for us here at Porsche

Beware: Trendiness has infected Porsche.  You never know how stylish the next  German "boy wonder" designer  might get!  

--
2007 997 Turbo

Criticism aside there must be significant interest in the new Turbo here in the UK as the earliest build I could get is April 2010, although my OPC did reiterate (what others on this forum have muted) that the facelift will not be available in the same numbers as its predecessor!

I await my invite to Silverstone to test the PDK with interest

I drew the line at the ceramic brakes - fine if you get the extended life, bad news if you don't.

Easy to go wild, my spec sheet has 27 items on it...

MarkN:

Easy to go wild, my spec sheet has 27 items on it...

With PDK and essentials I'll be coming in around £115k

which starts me thinking. As this isn't a daily driver would I be better off with a used GT2!

Is the GT2 getting a facelift?

MarkN:

I drew the line at the ceramic brakes - fine if you get the extended life, bad news if you don't.

Easy to go wild, my spec sheet has 27 items on it...

 No need for those. No extra safety factor. Some discussion about an ineffective first few seconds of application after an interval of disuse when driving in the rain on wet roads. No chance of fitting a spare tire. AFAIK, they are only an advantage on a track. Good thing: no brake dust, but 997.1 turbo wheels are painted so dust doesn't show as much as with Wurth-silver painted wheels. BTW, I might have gotten PCCB  if they were half the cost. US$8K just turned me off. I mean I blew us$2K+ on a leather PCM "switch panel" on the center console. It's crazy. Blowing money just isn't as much fun after a while.

Whoopsy:

959 is just about the perfect 911Turbo, too bad Porsche don't make it like they used to.

I only had one car poster ever, it's a 20+ year old 959, unfortunately that car is quite out of my reach, both in numbers and price, not to mention I can't even drive the god damn thing here.

The 959 was priced  7x what a regular  911 sold for in the mid 80s - I doubt there are many buyers today for a one million dollar Porsche that is when all is said and done, still a 911 .

it was so far ahead of anything at the time and still drives pretty well compared to a current  911  : AWD, twin sequential turbos, ABS, tire pressure monitoring system, run -flat tires at a time when the best car Ferrari made was the Testarossa and which feels like a truck compared to today's Ferraris.

So you could say that Ferrari has  advanced a lot more in the past 25 years than Porsche esp in the past 15 years , which I attribute to Porsche in that time period becoming a full line manufacturer with engineering resources neccesarily spread thin while Ferrari engineering styaed focused on racing and  a handful of sports car models.

Mine is coming in at £116k, which is much less than the Euro price for a car bought in Germany but still $190k including all taxes to put it on the road. Serious money by Porsche standards. The F car - F458 Italia, F599 Fiorano - are/will be in a different league. For me, I'm on the verge of retiring, at 54, so this is very much an end of career indulgence.

As for comparing a GT2, not for me. I've done a few Nurburgring laps but the GT2 is too extreme for what I want. Unbelievably heavy clutch...

MarkN:

Mine is coming in at £116k, which is much less than the Euro price for a car bought in Germany but still $190k including all taxes to put it on the road. Serious money by Porsche standards. The F car - F458 Italia, F599 Fiorano - are/will be in a different league. For me, I'm on the verge of retiring, at 54, so this is very much an end of career indulgence.

As for comparing a GT2, not for me. I've done a few Nurburgring laps but the GT2 is too extreme for what I want. Unbelievably heavy clutch...

If I recall, during my test drive, the 997TT had an unbelievably light clutch, when compared to my 997S.

2005 997S Blk/Blk

SoCal Alan:

MarkN:

Mine is coming in at £116k, which is much less than the Euro price for a car bought in Germany but still $190k including all taxes to put it on the road. Serious money by Porsche standards. The F car - F458 Italia, F599 Fiorano - are/will be in a different league. For me, I'm on the verge of retiring, at 54, so this is very much an end of career indulgence.

As for comparing a GT2, not for me. I've done a few Nurburgring laps but the GT2 is too extreme for what I want. Unbelievably heavy clutch...

 

If I recall, during my test drive, the 997TT had an unbelievably light clutch, when compared to my 997S.

I remember that too. Any explanation why Porsche does it this way? 
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

It was the same in the 996 - the turbo clutch has a lighter action than the other cars (I had a C4S before the TT). No idea why.

MarkN:

It was the same in the 996 - the turbo clutch has a lighter action than the other cars (I had a C4S before the TT). No idea why.

Correct observations as above.

The clutch on 996 Turbo and 997 Turbo has servo assistance.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Can any one explain how the different part of the RS Spyder wheel hub fit together?

 I assume there are holes in the back of the wheel that the red studs locate into buy I'm mystified what the parts on the left and right do. The writing on the nut says Undo/Fasten 460 Nm, quite a high torque. At the bottom there are two arrows, one saying 100 Nm and the other "STOP" with 30 degrees marked between them.

My dealer says Porsche do not provide a tool as standard to remove the nut...

MarkN:

Can any one explain how the different part of the RS Spyder wheel hub fit together?

I assume there are holes in the back of the wheel that the red studs locate into buy I'm mystified what the parts on the left and right do. The writing on the nut says Undo/Fasten 460 Nm, quite a high torque. At the bottom there are two arrows, one saying 100 Nm and the other "STOP" with 30 degrees marked between them.

My dealer says Porsche do not provide a tool as standard to remove the nut...

From the picture I would say the right part fits onto the cap (you have to remove the lid with the Porsche crest first). The left brass coloured part again could fit into the back of the right part, so that you could use a wheel wrench, which would fit into the nut of the left part?
 

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

SoCal Alan:

If I recall, during my test drive, the 997TT had an unbelievably light clutch, when compared to my 997S.

No major changes to clutch design between 997S and 997TT.

FWIW, I owned a 997S for two years and when I got the TT I didn't notice any major difference.

Below is publication "2007 Service Information" (PNA TRU 021 07). When they say "the most important modifications"  they mean compared to 997 and 997S. 997S also has hydraulic assisted clutch.

--
2007 997 Turbo

As already mentioned, clutch of Turbo (and GT2/GT3) is different from the rest of 997.  I don't know whether pedal effort is related to torque rating (anyone?), but the pedal effort IS considerably higher and therefore for a daily driver like the Turbo hydraulic assistance is needed.
In fact, without the assist, the clutch would feel like that of the GT2, which is indeed too heavy for my taste.
(Does anyone know if Turbo and GT2 clutch are the same unit? I think they are.)

A US company, EVOMS, makes a kit, GT2 Clutch Master and Slave Cylinder Conversion that allows removing the hydraulic assist. Needless to say, I have sub-zero interest, but it's there and has been used by a few people.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

MMD:

 No need for those. No extra safety factor. Some discussion about an ineffective first few seconds of application after an interval of disuse when driving in the rain on wet roads. No chance of fitting a spare tire. AFAIK, they are only an advantage on a track. Good thing: no brake dust, but 997.1 turbo wheels are painted so dust doesn't show as much as with Wurth-silver painted wheels. BTW, I might have gotten PCCB  if they were half the cost. US$8K just turned me off. I mean I blew us$2K+ on a leather PCM "switch panel" on the center console. It's crazy. Blowing money just isn't as much fun after a while.

All good points , but I actually wouldn't recommend PCCB for the track (risk of damage & cost of replacement; an irony of PCCB: designed for the track, but best used for street driving only), and the 2 most important advantages of PCCB were not mentioned:

1. The feel of the initial bite is much different, in favor of PCCB.

2. Advantages of significant unsprung weight reduction, which would affect ride & handling as well.

I saved the last PCCB discussion just for this kind of occasion, to spare everyone the suffering of another PCCB thread: http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/475250/porsche_ceramic_brakes/page1.html

I do agree that it's a personal choice (no right or wrong), and a PDK Turbo with big red still would blow my car away at the ring.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

artur777:

 Can,

will you finally order 997.2 `Turbo or wait for next generation one?

You have one of the best tuned IMO 997.1 Turbos so it;s interesting to know your approach.

Thank you Artur. There is more than one way to skin the cat but yes, it's true, I am in love with my Turbo.

As already mentioned, unless you're leasing, IMO there is no reason whatsoever for 997.1 owners, particularly those with manual gearbox, to move on to the facelift car. 997.1 Turbo is still THE FASTEST manual 2+2 in the world!  http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID=0&gID=3&tID=10073&viewThread=y (Considering the soft suspension, that just tells you how remarkably powerful the engine is.)

And if modding the ECU is important (near elimination of turbo lag), 997.1 is the clear and obvious choice. When tuners jack up the Turbo's boost, I understand the risks are bending the rods and cracking the block (don't know what this entails but sure doesn't sound like a do-it-yourself repair). I wouldn't want to take this chance.

The intrigue of the 997.2 to me remains a 997.2 with PDK and the Torque Vector option. That Posrche offers these now, and the very little horsepower increase of 997.2, tells me they have decoded the secret to the ring performance of that fast but fat and fugly GT-R: PDK and manipulation of individual wheel's torque (if I understand the technology correctly).
This remains more of a superficial interest though. I still prefer Manual and my only interest in ring time (subjective driving feel to me is a lot more important than ring time; well, unless your job is to race at the ring I guess) is to take the title of outright fastest 2+2 back to my beloved "Porsche Turbo" marque.  That shameful 7:29 claim still irritates me. Kidding kidding.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

As already mentioned, clutch of Turbo (and GT2/GT3) is different from the rest of 997.  I don't know whether pedal effort is related to torque rating (anyone?), but the pedal effort IS considerably higher and therefore for a daily driver like the Turbo hydraulic assistance is needed.
I

 My panties are now in a jam because the 2007 Technik Introduction for the Turbo model does NOT mention any difference.

To avoid duplication of effort the introductions for the Turbo only mention significant changes from  the 997 997S models. Except as indicated above (original posting of manual I did above) clutch is not mentioned. 

MMD:

cannga:

As already mentioned, clutch of Turbo (and GT2/GT3) is different from the rest of 997.  I don't know whether pedal effort is related to torque rating (anyone?), but the pedal effort IS considerably higher and therefore for a daily driver like the Turbo hydraulic assistance is needed.
I

 My panties are now in a jam because the 2007 Technik Introduction for the Turbo model does NOT mention any difference.

 

The Turbo clutch is  not different in terms of technology and perhaps this is the reason it doesn't get a mention in the book But definitely it is more heavy duty and consequently a different part #.

The clutch pedal of the Turbo is servoed whereas the Carrera's is not. This assistance more than compensates for the heavier clutch and to many people the Turbo clutch feels easier than the Carrera's.

On the GT2 they do without this assistance and the pedal is heavier both than the Turbo and the Carrera.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

reginos:

The clutch pedal of the Turbo is servoed whereas the Carrera's is not. 

 

 Thanks Buddy, you are correct. I did not read the manual correctly.  Sorry fellas.  It _is_ kind of confusing however, since what I underlined below in red is not considered an important modification/difference. 

--
2007 997 Turbo

nice one reply, Can!

IMO, 997.2 Turbo will be as fast at the Ring as 997.2 GT3...

artur777:

nice one reply, Can!

IMO, 997.2 Turbo will be as fast at the Ring as 997.2 GT3...

 

Hey I like the idea! Battling GT3 in the morning, taking wife and (very very small ) kids to restaurant in the evening. Kidding aside, I use the ring time for fun and bragging right, but the fact is that it is a small part of the equation for me. The subjective feel of the car is at least, if not more, important. Especially since I don't race.
One would think a 2+2 with 7:52 ring time would be "perfect," but to me it doesn't matter if it pitches and rolls like a Lexus. (Isn't it amazing how it could be so with that kind of track time?)

At any rate, the 997 Turbo facelift may go down in history as the first time that both previous gen. and new gen. owners will be happy with a facelift. 

Metzger versus PDK/PTV!

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

I love my GT2s clutch, feels just right for my left foot and never stall or maybe I'm just used to highly modified cars with triple/quad plate clutches 

--------------------------

A twin-disc clutch from Sachs is used here; doubling the number of discs increases the torque capacity accordingly without an increase in pressure plate force. The GT2's clutch pedal is still heavier than most, but it's manageable. We'd still recommend some time at the gym before getting stuck in rush-hour traffic.

--

SoCal Alan:

MarkN:

Mine is coming in at £116k, which is much less than the Euro price for a car bought in Germany but still $190k including all taxes to put it on the road. Serious money by Porsche standards. The F car - F458 Italia, F599 Fiorano - are/will be in a different league. For me, I'm on the verge of retiring, at 54, so this is very much an end of career indulgence.

As for comparing a GT2, not for me. I've done a few Nurburgring laps but the GT2 is too extreme for what I want. Unbelievably heavy clutch...

 

If I recall, during my test drive, the 997TT had an unbelievably light clutch, when compared to my 997S.

Test drove a 997S Cab for 2.5 yrs,,,,,,, now 19 month's into a test drive of a 997 Turbo Cab, would agree w/ you ; clutch on the 997 Turbo is lighter.       

--

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

cannga:

MMD:

 No need for those. No extra safety factor. Some discussion about an ineffective first few seconds of application after an interval of disuse when driving in the rain on wet roads. No chance of fitting a spare tire. AFAIK, they are only an advantage on a track. Good thing: no brake dust, but 997.1 turbo wheels are painted so dust doesn't show as much as with Wurth-silver painted wheels. BTW, I might have gotten PCCB  if they were half the cost. US$8K just turned me off. I mean I blew us$2K+ on a leather PCM "switch panel" on the center console. It's crazy. Blowing money just isn't as much fun after a while.

All good points , but I actually wouldn't recommend PCCB for the track (risk of damage & cost of replacement; an irony of PCCB: designed for the track, but best used for street driving only), and the 2 most important advantages of PCCB were not mentioned:

1. The feel of the initial bite is much different, in favor of PCCB.

2. Advantages of significant unsprung weight reduction, which would affect ride & handling as well.

I saved the last PCCB discussion just for this kind of occasion, to spare everyone the suffering of another PCCB thread: http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/475250/porsche_ceramic_brakes/page1.html

I do agree that it's a personal choice (no right or wrong), and a PDK Turbo with big red still would blow my car away at the ring.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Un-sprung rotating mass w/ PCCB's &  after-market wheels could actually create a performance difference that you couldn't really feel but handling difference that you can.  Forget the formula but according to a Porsche engineer it's something like 1lb saved rotating mass is equivalent to 7lbs in the car so difference can be = to a 3/400lb + weight savings, depending.......   Plus no rusty, crud soup dumped into the wheels after washing & cruddy looking calipers/ rusty rotors the rest of the time. That stuff (the dirt soup) is secondary to what you mentioned but is bad enough that there's no way on earth I'll go that route again w/ a Porsche mainly because I do all my own washing/detailing & it's more dirty work than cleaning the whole rest of the car. Spare the specific leather/interior paint/alum look, whatever pieces that you can add later (you wont anyway even though many times it cheaper to do afterwards than from the factory )  & invest in the available better PCCB performance/technology. Or at best get both.........imho, of course.

--

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

  Plus no rusty, crud soup dumped into the wheels after washing & cruddy looking calipers/ rusty rotors the rest of the time. That stuff (the dirt soup) is secondary to what you mentioned but is bad enough that there's no way on earth I'll go that route again w/ a Porsche mainly because I do all my own washing/detailing & it's more dirty work than cleaning the whole rest of the car. 

HAHAHAHA!  Too bad I'm on his fussy ignore list. Otherwise he'd know my perfect rotor/wheel maintenance procedure.

Use compressed air and a wand-type nozzle to accurately blow out brake dust from the ventilation channels and perforations in the rotors BEFORE using the garden hose.

It's soooo obvious: water turns dust into that sticky hard-to-eliminate "mud." No dust means no mud when water is used on the intricacies of rotors.

Of course you'd want to wear a mask and wash the car afterward because brake dust has no known health benefits for paint nor lungs.

Hummm..., come to think of it  extremely clean interiors of rotors will maximize even cooling. How many guys have caked on deposits of dried "mud" which result in uneven cooling and premature rotor damage?

--
2007 997 Turbo

BiTurbo:

I love my GT2s clutch, feels just right for my left foot and never stall or maybe I'm just used to highly modified cars with triple/quad plate clutches 

--------------------------

A twin-disc clutch from Sachs is used here; doubling the number of discs increases the torque capacity accordingly without an increase in pressure plate force. The GT2's clutch pedal is still heavier than most, but it's manageable. We'd still recommend some time at the gym before getting stuck in rush-hour traffic.

 

Maybe I found an answer to my earlier question: Does clutch with higher torque rating inherently has higher pedal effort? Since the higher torque requires more force from the pressure plate, the answer is yes, it does?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BaECAbapRg

Very interesting that two clutch discs are stronger than one. Thinking about it, I would have thought it's like putting two springs in series, you actually decrease the force. Guess that's why I don't do this for a living. But anyway, thanks for the very interesting post & picture.

Re. GT2's pedal effort, surely it's a personal preference. I mean a 250, 6-3 NFL linebacker will positively laugh at my complaint about the heavy effort. I guess that's one disadvantage of being a 155, 5-7 office worker. Lance Armstrong probably wouldn't mind either.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga: 

Maybe I found an answer to my earlier question: Does clutch with higher torque rating inherently has higher pedal effort? Since the higher torque requires more force from the pressure plate, the answer is yes, it does?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BaECAbapRg

Great video! A clutch with higher torque rating does not inherently have to demand a higher pedal effort (friction = friction coefficient x pressure) but could also be solved by a differing material.

Ferdie:

Great video! A clutch with higher torque rating does not inherently have to demand a higher pedal effort (friction = friction coefficient x pressure) but could also be solved by a differing material.

Thank you for the "reminder" of the equation; I wasn't even thinking about it .

Well then, *assuming* same material, then it IS true higher rated clutch would require higher pedal effort?

I still am having some difficulty understanding how 2 clutch discs could have more friction than one. One would think the force is only as strong as the weakest link, i.e. the weaker disc between the 2 discs. (Just wondering out loud; I am not questioning at all that the method works.)

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )