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    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Another quote from this interesting article http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/handling/tech_handling_5.htm. Previously I quoted the discussion on the importance of the concept of slip angle in understanding understeer/oversteer behavior.

      Understeer : Front Slip Angle > Rear Slip Angle

      Oversteer   : Front Slip Angle < Rear Slip Angle
      Neutral steer : Front Slip Angle = Rear Slip Angle

    Just as interesting is how a typical 4WD drive car is expected to behave. Although the discussion here is not specific to the Turbo, it allows me to understand why the first thing my tuner says about my car is that it doesn't "rotate" in corners, and why so many of us add negative front camber to reduce the Turbo's understeer.
    Note also how controlled throttle oversteer (rotation per my tuner & NOT the same as lift-throttle oversteer!) could be a very good and fun thing. Smiley
     

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Non-neutral steer due to Tractive Force

    Car magazines often prefer the handling of rear-wheel-drive cars. They say FWD cars usually understeer while RWD is easier to provide power oversteer. Now, we use the concept of Slip Angle to explain this.

    Consider a driving wheel, which is under cornering and has created slip angle. If tractive force (that is, the pulling force from the engine) is applied, the slip angle will increase (See Figure in below). This is because the tractive force applied between the tyre and ground will distort the tread on the contact patch further.

      Now the scene is clear.

      FWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle > rear wheel's. This result in Understeer.

      RWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle < rear wheel's. This result in Oversteer.

      4WD cars, if the front / rear torque split is equal, has equal F/R slip angles, thus result in Neutral steer.

      (Remind you, understeer, oversteer and neutral also depend on suspension design, weight distribution etc. So we cannot say all FWD cars must understeer or all RWD car must oversteer. In fact, car makers usually design the suspension geometry to compensate the non-neutral steering generated by FWD / RWD and weight distribution.)

    Power Oversteer and Lift-off Oversteer

    The more tractive force we apply, the larger slip angle is created in the driving wheel. Therefore, for the RWD cars, we can use the throttle to control the degree of oversteer. When the car is entering a corner too fast and seems likely to run wide, we can correct its direction by increasing the throttle (not to do this before reaching the mid corner !), then the car oversteers. If we find the correction is too much, we can ease the throttle and let the car returns to neutral steer or even mild understeer, depends on the suspension design and weight distribution.

    Only RWD cars or rear-biased 4WD cars can do this ! In the same situation, the driver in a FWD car has nothing to do other than easing the throttle, slow down the car thus reduce the centrifugal force, and hope the car can overcome the corner. There are many disadvantages :
     

    1. You lose time during slow down.
    2. You lose engine rev during slow down, thus the engine takes longer to rise back to the useful power band once you exit the corner.
    3. Very often, if you miscalculate, you are unlikely to have sufficient road ahead for you to slow down, especially in tight corner.

    .
    Therefore we always say RWD car is superior than FWD car in handling. There are, however, some well-sorted front-driver (especially some GTi) can play "lift-off oversteer", which is actually the reverse of "power oversteer" - a degree of permanent oversteer is built into the car but is only accessible when the car is pushing to the limit and with throttle disengaged. Step down the throttle again will reduce the oversteer and even back to understeer. Anyway, obviously this is still not as controllable as "power oversteer". While power oversteer can extract a lot of oversteer - actually depends on throttle - lift-off oversteer is rather limited, simply because it is impossible to build a lot of permanent oversteer to the chassis without deteriorating handling in lower speed or straight line.

    Once again I have to emphasis that the power oversteer must be highly controllable by the driver, otherwise the car may lose control and spun. To make a good power oversteer car, the secret is to match the power and cornering limit perfectly at the speed concerned. If the cornering limit exceeded the power, the rear wheels will grip hard and refuse to slip. In contrast, if the cornering limit is too low or the engine torque is too high at the speed concerned, the rear end will slide severely once the throttle is pressed. Therefore, the cornering limit must be set at a level where the engine output, at the speed and road we normally want the car to power oversteer, has just sufficient power to exceed. To implement it , choose a suitable set of tyres, applying suitable amount of downforce and an adequate front / rear weight distribution is very crucial.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Can, I noticed how your dampers have a product ID number of F4-GA5-D600-H0...which is the same as Alex's clubsport dampers....neither of which can be found in Bilstein's database.
     

    DSC04366.jpgAny ideas?


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    You are referring to why the number on the shock absorber, F4-GA5-D600-H0, is different from this number from their web site right?

    http://www.bilstein.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2278&zenid=
    Part Number: F4-GA5-D598-H0

    BILSTEIN - Porsche 997 Turbo;K;B16 Damptronic
    Setting
    : PSS Damptronic Kit(PASM)

    I did talk to Bilstein about these different numbers. IIRC, they are different because one refers to the individual shock absorber, and the other one, F4-GA5-D598-H0, refers to the kit, which of course includes front and rear coilovers (shock absorber plus spring) and the front replacement drop link (there is no rear replacement drop link).

    For anyone else wondering about this, at least for the US, there are only 2 available choices, B16 Damptronic, and B16 PSS10. If you want PASM compatibility, it's the Damptronic version. If you want more adjustability (10 different bound - rebound choices), then it's the PSS10. I would say most, if not all, Turbo owners have opted for the Damptronic.

    Europe has different nomenclature (Alex's clubsport) and I still don't know how and if it is different from the US version. I suspect *not* but am not sure about this.
    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    If you ever wonder why PAG makes the Turbo 4WD, despite of the added cost, complexity, and weight (among the reasons you won't see race cars with 4WD), this article may provide the explanation: Superior cornering grip and safety for amateur drivers. Again, the important concept of slip angle is used to explain why this is so.

    Equally interesting is the discussion on why a 4WD's neutral steer character is not necessarily "better" than the tendency for power oversteer of a RWD car. How it this interesting? It explains why a number of US tuners set the Turbo to have slight  front toe-out. In the words of my tuner, the front toe out allows the car to "rotate" (rear end coming out on exiting corners), mimicking the "power oversteer" of 2WD car.  Now it should be clear why these tuners end up doing the same thing to the Turbo: more front negative camber and front toe out, and that these settings are as important to the enjoyment of the Turbo as installing the Bilstein coilover.

    Once again, please remember the power application the author is talking about is during the exiting phase of cornering, NOT entering. Slow in fast out is still the rule.

     >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/handling/tech_handling_4.htm

    RWD versus 4WD

    Basically, 4WD does not introduce power oversteer. However, most people still prefer it simply because it provides superior cornering grip thus improve cornering speed. As I have promised earlier in the Cornering Grip section, here I'll explain how 4WD improve cornering grip :

    Consider a driving wheel running in a corner. Due to the frictional force applied from the road surface, the tread in the contact patch distorts and creates slip angle. The faster the car corner, the more centrifugal force generates thus the larger the slip angle becomes. You can interpret this as the elastic distortion of the tyre generates a counter force to keep the car fighting with the centrifugal force. When the car is accelerated fast to the extent that the elasticity of the tyre reaches its limit, it could not distort anymore, thus more speed will lead to the tyre slide, and the car lose grip. This point is what we call "Cornering Limit".

    A FWD or RWD car has already a lot of tyre distortion (slip angle) in the driving wheel because the tractive force is shared by only two wheels. Therefore there is not too much space left before the tyres running into their cornering limits. On the contrary, 4WD cars distribute tractive force to all wheels, thus each wheel shares considerably less tractive force thus create smaller slip angle in cornering. The car can corner at higher speed before the slip angle reach the cornering limit.

    *                                         *                                        *

    Grip aside, we concentrate back to our current topic - steering tendency.

    There is always argument that whether the neutral steer of 4WD is better than RWD's oversteer. Although neutral is more favourable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase. Remember, no driver could avoid miscalculation, no matter Mrs. Robinson or Michael Schumacher. Normally we need to feel the car's attitude and the road condition every moment before deciding how to control the car in the next moment. In this sense, RWD's controllable power oversteer is what we want.

    Moreover, power oversteer of RWD ask the driver to intervene the throttle during cornering. This let him feel more involving and that he is mastering the car. In contrast, 4WD cars let the tremendous grip, the limited-slip differential and even the computer to rule the car's cornering. Therefore we always hear road testers said RWD is more fun to drive.

    I am not saying 4WD cannot have power oversteer. Bugatti EB110, with its 30/70 front-to-rear torque split, did that beautifully while providing tremendous grip. Even though a 50/50 4WD car like Mitsubishi Lancer Evo V could achieve slightly power oversteer by means of well-sorted suspension geometry. For example, if the suspension is setup such that to introduce rear outside wheel positively cambers when subjective to body roll, the contact patch area decreases thus slip angle increases, then power oversteer is also available. However, you cannot set the suspension to provide power oversteer as much as RWD car since there is a trade-off in total grip and straight line stability.
     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    cannga:
    Same amount of stone chips; they are just 1 inch higher.

    Quote:
    Alex_997TT said:
    BTW - do you guys get more stone chips now your cars are lowered?

    FYI - I have noticed that I get a LOT more stone chips now on my windscreen than I use to before the car was lowered.  It's getting so bad that I really have to keep my distance when following cars now.


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Alex_997TT:
    cannga:
    Same amount of stone chips; they are just 1 inch higher.

    Quote:
    Alex_997TT said:
    BTW - do you guys get more stone chips now your cars are lowered?

    FYI - I have noticed that I get a LOT more stone chips now on my windscreen than I use to before the car was lowered.  It's getting so bad that I really have to keep my distance when following cars now.

    I too have found that the key is to stay away from cars, and especially trucks with large open wheels, ahead of me.

    Every once in a while I have too put red touch-up paint on my Turbo's front lip to repair the blemish, like putting make-up on the lip of one's mistress.  Now if that's not an act of true love ... Smiley


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Hey guys,

    need some pointers, i know this might be abit boring for you experts now, but have anyone of you experts redo an updated chart on all your alignment settings, like something Alex did back last year, i have justs go myself a set of damptronics plus sways and like to know what you guys think is best street settings now, no track days for the moments.

    cheers,

    Will


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur


    Hi Will, below is the last chart that Alex posted. Although there are many parameters, the 2 numbers you should pay attention to are front camber and front toe; as these are the 2 that are changed by a number of people. Anyway, IMHO it's critical to change only one parameter at a time when you adjust alignment settings-- if something is not to your liking you want to know what change is responsible. Please trust me it would save you a lot of time in the long run, besides being incredibly educational, to separate the steps and change one at a time. I would recommend the following approach:

    1. Change Bilstein and Damptronic. Keep alignment settings exactly same as stock. Drive this way for a couple of months or so.

    2. Change front camber to around minus 1.2 degree (= 1 degree 12 minutes) or so. See if you could see the change: Less understeer. Drive this way for a couple of months.

    3. Change front toe out to minus 2 minutes or so. See if you could see the change: Better turn-in response, more direct steering response, better "rotation" of the car on corner exits.

    It would be a good idea to NOT push the car to its limit in the first couple of weeks after every change. You would like to acclimate yourself to the car's new behavior. My tuner constantly reminds me of this, particularly because he knows I am an amateur.

    The above setting makes your car the same as mine. The tuner who sets up my car is a very well known shop among Porsche enthusiasts in Southern California (Lucent Motors, Los Angeles) -- so the numbers didn't come out of thin air. I think it is a good starting point for an aggressive street car & absolutely love it but, of course, it is not the only way. Good luck and have fun.

    >>>>
    Summary Chart, courtesy Alex:

    Final Turbo Alignment Setting 997tt_geos.JPG


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    cannga:

    3. Change front toe out to minus 2 minutes or so. See if you could see the change: Better turn-in response, more direct steering response, better "rotation" of the car on corner exits.


    Just a clarification of item 3:

    3. Change the front toe setting from its stock value of positive five minutes (positive means toe in) to a new value of minus 2 minutes (minus means toe out) or so. See if you could see the change: Better turn-in response, more direct & responsive steering feel, better "rotation" of the car on corner exits.

    The "separation" of steps I mentioned should cost a paltry $150-200 each time. A big nothing in the overall scheme of things; actually, in this case, imho the **MOST IMPORTANT** part of making the Turbo fun & drive like a sports car.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Hey Cannga,

    Thx for the quick reply, i cant wait to try out your settings!! i just have a couple more questions, how much did u lower your car from stock? i see in the chart above that your figures are in light shades so has it been changed? lastly, since i only drive my car about twice a week, how long ( time or km wise ) do u think i should wait for the damptronic to settle before i do a new alignment? is weight corner balacing necessary?

    Cheers,

    Will


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    My settings give a heavier feel steering and I really like that as it is more confidence inspiring.  My car feels GLUED to the road now.

    Saying that, I went out yesterday in 25 deg C weather and my steering was really light (too light) probably due to tyre pressures given they were last set at the correct pressures when it was 12 deg C.

    With regards to corner weight balancing you only need this if you want the exact steering through a left and a right hand corner.  ie. most people wouldn't notice the difference.

    The other thing to add to Canga's 'must have' list is the cars ride height.  This affects both the harsness of the ride and also the angle at which your car points it's nose down (affecting LOTS of things).  I would HIGHLY recommend my ride height settings given they give the factory angle and also make the damptronics acceptable over bumpy roads.


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    bigwillystyle:

    Hey Cannga,

    Thx for the quick reply, i cant wait to try out your settings!! i just have a couple more questions, how much did u lower your car from stock? i see in the chart above that your figures are in light shades so has it been changed? lastly, since i only drive my car about twice a week, how long ( time or km wise ) do u think i should wait for the damptronic to settle before i do a new alignment? is weight corner balacing necessary?

    Cheers,

    Will


    The numbers in shade are the ones that are approximate I think. Yep, for all my interminable rambling, I never did measure ride heights appropriately. Smiley Smiley My approximate ride height delta's were done using fender to ground -- before and after Bilstein; this is NOT the correct way.

    The correct way to measure height is from two specific screw locations around the front and rear wheel carriage area -- I have a diagram here somewhere on one of thesse multiple pages. LOL. I think (not sure) Alex's has actual pictures of the screws on his terrific thread here.

    My recommendation is to lower about 10-15mm front and rear equally, and no more than that. Too much lowering and you might risk running into the internal bump stops (not good), not enough lowering and you might have coil bind (not good either). BTW, to prevent coil bind (supposedly makes the car feel abnormally stiff), you have to lower the car with Bilstein a minimum 5mm. That is, you actually do NOT want stock height.

    I did not corner balance because my car feels good as is, and I don't want to mess around with a good thing. If you ask on any forum the answer would be 50/50, but yes, a purist would say that you should corner balance. What it does is makes your right turn feel the same as your left turn. 

     

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Thank you Can and Alex for all the info, much appreciated!!

    Cheers,

    Will


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    cannga:

    Yep, for all my interminable rambling, I never did measure ride heights appropriately. Smiley Smiley My approximate ride height delta's were done using fender to ground -- before and after Bilstein; this is NOT the correct way.

    The correct way to measure height is from two specific screw locations around the front and rear wheel carriage area -- I have a diagram here somewhere on one of thesse multiple pages. LOL. I think (not sure) Alex's has actual pictures of the screws on his terrific thread here.

    My recommendation is to lower about 10-15mm front and rear equally, and no more than that. Too much lowering and you might risk running into the internal bump stops (not good), not enough lowering and you might have coil bind (not good either). BTW, to prevent coil bind (supposedly makes the car feel abnormally stiff), you have to lower the car with Bilstein a minimum 5mm. That is, you actually do NOT want stock height.

     

    Questions about ride height keep popping up. Below is a document from Porsche on how to measure ride height (I don't even know from which 911 and personally have not tried it.), plus 2 pictures from Alex's excellent thread, showing the measurement on his Turbo.
    FWIW, I believe my incorrectly-measured measurement Smiley, using mid-fender height to ground, shows the post drop heights to be 65.7 cm front, 68 cm rear. The front drop is therefore around 15 mm, rear around 10mm.

    Ride Height Measurement.JPG height measurement alex 1.jpg

    height measurement alex 2.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Does anyone know what are spring rate for dmaptronics vs H&R, Eibach, techart stock. etc? I remember it was posted by someone but I have not been able to find it..

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/426128/Champion_Turbo_w_Susp_Mod_Better_Than_GT3RS/page1.html

    Eclou said something about it on that  thread 


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT:
    Does anyone know what are spring rate for dmaptronics vs H&R, Eibach, techart stock. etc? I remember it was posted by someone but I have not been able to find it..

    Depends on which spring you are asking about:

    1. The progressive springs to replace the stock progressive springs (keeping the stock shock absorber)?

    2. The linear springs that other makers (H&R, TechArt) use with the Bilstein Damptronic and then call it their own "version"?

    What I know:

    1. For obvious reason, not a single tuner has published the proprietary spring rates. The only numbers I've ever seen is that of an Eibach set, and I'm almost certain they were released "inadvertently" Smiley. The springs, being progressive, have 2 rates: an initial softer rate, and a final stiffer rate.
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/157882-eibach-sport-spring-rates.html
    Eibach part # 7220.140
    Drop is . 8 inches
    Progressive f/r
    Front
    19/34 nm
    168/300 in/lbs
    Rear
    52 /90 nm
    460/796 in/lbs

    2. Same story, I've never seen any full set of numbers except Bilstein's, which are of course:
    Front 285 Main, 115 Helper (fully compressed under load and does not contribute to overall spring rate)
    Rear 570 Main, 145 Helper

    Once a KW US dealer posted that KW uses progressive front and 970 lbs/in spring for the rear (NOT confirmed), which really is an amazingly high number. Maybe their second spring is a tender, not helper spring. Or maybe their damper's valving is completely different.

    If you don't mind sharing, let us know what you are trying to do.

    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I think need some help here, please. Trying to improve my suspension as you (GT, Alex, Cannga, function analyst...) did but i am not sure if it is missing something.

    Already have: Damptronics and sways

    Need to have: Gt3 cup lower arms,Thrust arm bushing kit (Tarret has a very adjustable one, see pic), RS engine mounts,Front tie rod with bumpsteer, Rear toe control arm with bumpsteer and Rear upper control arms link (dog bones). Are these all? Or is it anything redundant?

    Thanks a lot

    1249408155723TABKA01%20l.jpg


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Alcyon:

    I think need some help here, please. Trying to improve my suspension as you (GT, Alex, Cannga, function analyst...) did but i am not sure if it is missing something.

    Already have: Damptronics and sways

    Need to have: Gt3 cup lower arms,Thrust arm bushing kit (Tarret has a very adjustable one, see pic), RS engine mounts,Front tie rod with bumpsteer, Rear toe control arm with bumpsteer and Rear upper control arms link (dog bones). Are these all? Or is it anything redundant?

    Alcyon,

    Not sure I understand your question.

    1. Is the current setup working fine, and you just want to upgrade further?

    2. There is something wrong with the current setup that you think needs correcting by using other components?

    As far as the list, yeah that's fairly complete. The only thing I would  add/ask is: Does the GT3 lower arm come with rubber bushing? If so, that rubber bushing could be replaced with the metallic monoball:  http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/gt3-control-arm-kit-996-997-986-987-lcakit-detail.htm

    Lastly, if you already know, never mind, but if you are new to this, keep in mind that list of components you are asking about is getting pretty hard-core. They are great and will result in more precise steering and handling, but there is no doubt they are geared more towards a track car and will bring Noise, Vibration, Harshness as well.
    For example, although I have no direct experience, I have been told that the thrust arm bushing could bring more road vibration to the steering wheel, and the rear upper control arm (dog bones) are overkill for cars not seriously tracked.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Yeah just want go one step further to improve the car, it is my dd but need some more at the track. Thanks again to all of you for your wise advice and take care out there.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

     Alcyon you are absolutely right. I have all of the above. Most people focus on sways and springs/shocks. But one of the most important flows of the tt (actually imo THE most important flow) is the fact that P chose to put rubber bushings in most suspension connections contrary to all other GT models (and of course CUP, RSR etc). That means that under load things start moving, all suspension geometry  changes and that is exactly what most people complain about when they drive a GT3 and then a turbo on the track. To compensate P has installed PSM, PSAM and PTM. So effectively what happens is that as you drive on the limit, toe/camber/caster changes=car balance changes and then the electronics intervene to keep car steady. So the tt feels like a heavy, GT car with no driver involvement.

    Well if you change these components (and shed some weight with GT2 seats/ Dymags etc) you can get within 90% of a GT3 but with a lot more power. The cool thing is you can do this with mostly even porsche motorsport components. 

    Caanga the monoball in the front CAN bring some noise. But then again I drove a GT3 with the tarrett monoball in the front recently and it was perfect. Same with the drop links. Imo the ones with no rubber connection bring vibration on potholes with not a huge benefit on the track. So after my experiment all these components when combined with a soft suspension (like the damptronics) are a good compromise for the street. Still too soft for the track but I stiffen those sways and in 10 mins you can getyou half way there for a truly fast track car. And then back to softest for a dd.

    Regarding my question regarding spring rates, I was thinking that maybe I could try 2 way motons that allegedly can be turned full soft in 2 mins for an even softer ride than the damptronics, while still be able to turn them back to hard for a true racing setup. However the HR/Eibach springs that are recommended are I believe a LOT harder than the bilsteins and wanted to find some kind of a compromise.

     


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    It is a pleasure count on you guys


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT:

    Caanga the monoball in the front CAN bring some noise. But then again I drove a GT3 with the tarrett monoball in the front recently and it was perfect. ...

    Regarding my question regarding spring rates, I was thinking that maybe I could try 2 way motons that allegedly can be turned full soft in 2 mins for an even softer ride than the damptronics, while still be able to turn them back to hard for a true racing setup. However the HR/Eibach springs that are recommended are I believe a LOT harder than the bilsteins and wanted to find some kind of a compromise.

     

    GT,

    Some very good information you posted there. Smiley

    Regarding the Moton, I have no direct experience but from what I could read, I am afraid such suspension Holy Grail, perfectly soft for the street and perfectly stiff for the track, does NOT exist. And I personally have not seen a Moton car that claims such capability. Moton to me means a car that will see very little action outside of the race track, unless driver is nutty. (Something which I wouldn't rule myself out... but we digress.)

    The Moton setups I've read about use very stiff springs. Not just stiff, but extremely so compared to Bilstein. I mean what are they recommending to you, around 500-600 front, 700-800 rear? (Versus Bilstein 285/570, and stock 996 Turbo 187/340 !!).
    I just feel that if you are using soft springs with Moton, it might not be a good idea at all because that's not what it is designed for.

    The reason that I think the suspension Holy Grail doesn't exist is as followed (just my 2 cents and more speculation Smiley). Of the 2 main ways to increase stiffness in a coilover:
    1. Stiffer spring,
    2. Higher compression dampening force,

    1 is the "conventional" way, and 2 seems to be what you describing (changing dampening force instead of spring), and is the same thing that PASM is doing. (For those who don't already know, PASM  works by varying compression dampening force, using internal valves that open and close at the push of that button.)
    The problem with using the second method is by increasing dampening force too much to compensate for springs that are too soft, there is no more compliance and the result could be an extremly stiff, jittery, uncomfortable car that likes to go airborne. Otherwise known as the flawed design of PASM Sport, First Generation Smiley. Your idea is not as extreme, but the point is, in general I am leary of using dampening force to affect car stiffness too much.

    BTW, the only 997 Turbo with Moton that's ever been reviewed is one in California. It was reviewed my Excellence Mag and Pete Stout the editor, who has posted on this thread, seemed to like it a lot. The setup people, I believe (don't have the copy of the mag anymore) is S Car Go http://www.scargoracing.com/ . If you want suggestions, they would be good people to talk to.

    Regardless, I would be interested in the result of your experiment. What spring rates are they suggesting to you?

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Interesting info on tires for Turbo, as posted by "raiyu" on www.6speedonline.com , Turbo forum. I thought the comment on when you need to move up from street tires interesting . I believe raiyu's car is a Turbo with Bilstein suspension.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    As for tires, here is what I learned unfortunately through my own mistakes:

    1) Street Tires: Michelin Pilot Sports - If your tires are squealing on every turn already then you can't use street tires anymore. Their sidewall isnt strong enough to handle the lateral forces in the turns. What will happen is that you will wear out the outside sidewall regardless of how much reasonable negative camber you add. What I've seen with street tires is that higher pressure preserve the tires longer, usually cup tires run around 33-35 psi hot, with street tires dont be afraid to do 38-40 psi when hot.

    2) Cup tires: Toyo R888s, Michilen Cups, BridgeStone RE-11 - The R888s are very noisy on the street since you commute to the track and drive the car I dont recommend them, they are irritating. They hydro plane as bad as the Michelin Cups. The Cups seem to last the least for me, I dont know about others experience but they last around 30-40% less. Ive switched to the Bridgestone RE-11 and love them. They are quiet on the street, perform better than both the R888 and Cups in the rain (but you should still drive slower), and they perform as well on the track. Their tread life is great and grip is on par with the cups. I run them about 31-32 in the front when hot and 32-34 hot in the rear. Not to mention they are $700 cheaper for a set than the Cups and you can grab them from tirerack.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    What about corsa's though? A lot of people swear by them and I ve used quite a few sets and am pretty happy on all counts..

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT, good point. I recall reading they are as good as Michelin in the dry, but better wet performance?


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I am finding it increasingly difficult to NOT think about the Rear Toe Control Arm. For 3 reasons:

    1. It's so pretty! (Pics taken at past LA Auto Show.)

    2. Besides the coilover itself, during my "project research," it is probably the single most universally recommended upgrade by tuners. I've been told the dog bones could be over-kill for street driving, but this Rear Toe Control Arm is a no brainer recommendation.
    Per Tarett, replacing factory rubber bushing with metallic joint reduces toe changes during acceleration and deceleration.  The result is improved response/feedback and control/stability.
    My tuner at Lucent Motors told me the increase in NVH is surprisingly little. Of course, "surprisingly little" carries different meaning for a street racer versus an office worker, so I am still leery. Still skeptical but I think this one I will have to try out for myself. Reason: Suspension upgrade is always reversible.
    http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/996-986-987-rear-t-control-arm-pr-996tlnk-detail.htm

    3. People like Alcyon and GT are not making it easy for me to resist. Smiley

     

    suspension rear 1200 08AE8746 rear lower control arm.jpg

    08AE8742.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Corsas are perfectly acceptable in the rain.. Just don't go racing in the wet! Really the difference in traction on very slippery roads is night and day to PS2s, factory installed Bridgestones and also Pzero

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Cannga, promise tell you the differences when they are in Smiley


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    After-market anti-sway bar (confusingly enough also called "sway bar") could be a frustrating mod. For one, no one publishes official specs, so consumers are left with speculations and rumors. Second, even if we do have the specs (torsion spring rate, not just thickness), I am not sure we know what to do with them.
    When I bought my sway bar (by GMG, first suspension mod -- oh so long ago!), I admit the idea is to simply increase roll stiffness. I had little knowledge of exactly how much and what other implications there are.

    GMG recently came through. To my knowledge, they are first vendor to fully describe the increase from stock of their sway bars:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://www.gmgracing.com/porsche_suspension.shtml
    The rear sport sway bars offers a torsional stiffness increase of 30,45 and 60% while the front front sway bar offers an increase of 15/25 and 35% over the factory bar.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The bar is made by Eibach, which btw also supplies, or claims to supply, Porsche OEM springs. GMG is a racing concern in Southern Cal with good relationship with Porsche Motorsports NA -- locating across the street from each other, I think. So this is not some mom and pop organization here. Smiley
    For those who don't already know, each of those numbers represent the holes on an adjustbable sway bar. The hole closest to the main bar is the stiffest one.

    There is a very interesting thread on 6speed in case you would like to read more. Several vendors chime in and release their rate. We now know it appears most bars are about 50% stiffer in the rear bar for example.
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/184512-who-has-stiffest-rear-adjustable-sway-bar.html

    Enclosed is a picture of my car's rear sway bar. (The red thingy is the Tarett after-market drop link. Don't worry about that for now. LOL)

    drop link on sway bar.jpg


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


     
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