Crown

Fritz,

You are right.  I totally forgot Porsche bought VW stock so VW would be protected form hostile take over.  What a SOB is Piech .  He literally bit the hand that fed him

I am still puzzled.

Is there a business reason for VW to take over Porsche? Also, given that WW and Harter are both very savvy business men, when VW stock price began to rise substantially why didn't Porsche sell the stock and take the profit? The alternative of continuing to buy and hold VW stock does not make sense. Clearly, I am missing something here.

It is a feud between cousins. That seems pretty obvious. But Piech seems a bit 'un-hinged' - suing newspapers over the 'hunting scenes' depicted in the ties that he wears, and that when he drives, only chickens are scared but not wild boars (actual court cases and settlements). Is this how wealthy Germans behave? Not friends of mine, and I used to wok at the Porsche factory as an outside medical contractor.

Piech is not a bit 'un-hinged', he is downt hostile towards the Porsche family.

The whole saga started as a protective investment by Porsche to protect VW, the Porsche family saw an opening to put the squeeze on Piech and they took it, they almost succeed but Piech fight back, ignoring EU ruling and stalling the original deal. With his unique position on both companies, he had insider knowledge to know how to sabotage the whole thing.

WW is just an executor for the Porsche family and he became the casualty in the whole deal.

If this whole affair happens in the USA, I am pretty sure Piech would have violate quite a few SEC regulations and will probably face time behind bars.

VW does not need Porsche, VAG has enough brands and products that Porsche the brand would be deemed extra, it's only for Piech's ego that HIS company owns Porsche the company.

Porsche however NEEDS VAG, it needs the volume to meet US CAFE regulations, it needs VW as a supplier for Cayenne, it needs to access to extra engineering talent and etc. It's a pure business decision, with some family feud throw in.

Porsche would have been a great parent company to VAG, all the current product confusions and brand confusions would have been solved because it will be run as a business driven company, not a Piech's ego driven company like it current is.

Anyone remember the hookers parties at VW? One can almost be sure Piech knows about them and he probably participate in a few of them, what kind of boss throw sex parties for empolyees?

It's obvious that Whoopsy views Pieech as "der unmensch im Person."  But I still don't see Pieech as wanting to destroy or neuter Porsche, especially now that he controls it.

But I wouldn't mind at all if he axed the Panamera and trimmed the Cayenne lineup to the top model (Turbo or Turbo S only).

The Boxster can be Porsche's "roadster," but to me the Cayman still strikes me as a marketing tool only.  Let Porsche make a mid-engine sports car, but niche it as a supercar only ala the CGT.

And the 911 and its variants can remain the mainstay of Porsche production, even if it means lower production numbers.

1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW

More like I am siding with the Porsche family and

Whoopsy:

 

VW does not need Porsche, VAG has enough brands and products that Porsche the brand would be deemed extra, it's only for Piech's ego that HIS company owns Porsche the company.

Porsche however NEEDS VAG, it needs the volume to meet US CAFE regulations, it needs VW as a supplier for Cayenne, it needs to access to extra engineering talent and etc. It's a pure business decision, with some family feud throw in.

Porsche would have been a great parent company to VAG, all the current product confusions and brand confusions would have been solved because it will be run as a business driven company, not a Piech's ego driven company like it current is.

 Anyone remember the hookers parties at VW? One can almost be sure Piech knows about them and he probably participate in a few of them, what kind of boss throw sex parties for empolyees?

1. Strictly speaking VW might not need Porsche but on the other hand it won't lose anything by having it. On the contrary it will gain. The allure of the brand is very strong all over the world. If you think how many independent monthly publications ( I know at least 7 in 5 countries and 3 languages) make a living out of this brand then you have your answer. Also, Weissach is reknowned research centre which VW could utilise.

2. Agree that Porsche needs VW for the reasons stated.

3. VW owned by Porsche? Only dreamers believed that was ultimately feasible given the financial and political realities. WW threw all his company's surpluses chasing a fantasy.

4.From what I understand using sex as a reward/enticement is customary in many countries. Why would Germany be an exception? Also it is one of the few countries that prostitution is perfectly legal and controlled, without the hypocrisy that is found in other societies.

reginos:

3. VW owned by Porsche? Only dreamers believed that was ultimately feasible given the financial and political realities. WW threw all his company's surpluses chasing a fantasy.

Call me a dreamer if you will , but don't try to disguise the truth of the story by failing to mention that:

a) financial realities changed during its course, and 

b) the political reality was that the EU chickened out of doing its duty by doing away with a blatant case of protectionism (the VW Law), also during the course of the story. 

fritz

fritz:

reginos:

3. VW owned by Porsche? Only dreamers believed that was ultimately feasible given the financial and political realities. WW threw all his company's surpluses chasing a fantasy.

Call me a dreamer if you will , but don't try to disguise the truth of the story by failing to mention that:

a) financial realities changed during its course, and 

b) the political reality was that the EU chickened out of doing its duty by doing away with a blatant case of protectionism (the VW Law), also during the course of the story. 

I think Fritz makes a fair point here.  Like partial differential equations, had other things remained constant, WW would have gotten away with the plan in good standing.

Unfortunately for WW and the Porsche heirs, things didn't remain constant.

But, was not the world always thus?

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow

2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray

1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau

2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

It's unlikely that Weideking will be give much credit by posterity for his daring strategy given the result. When asked how history will remember him, Churchill replied, very well, as I intend to write it!  WW may not be so fortunate if, as Goering remarked, history is written by the victors. 

"History is bunk."

-Henry Ford

1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW

W8MM:

 

I think Fritz makes a fair point here.  Like partial differential equations, had other things remained constant, WW would have gotten away with the plan in good standing.

Unfortunately for WW and the Porsche heirs, things didn't remain constant.

But, was not the world always thus?

Yes, but even if WW could not be expected to make the future, IMO he could at least predict future developments and build them into his strategy.

He was viewing things through rosy glasses with optimism brought about by his arrogance after his earlier success at Porsche.

reginos:

He was viewing things through rosy glasses with optimism brought about by his arrogance after his earlier success at Porsche.

 He was backed by WoPo, and from the owner families perspective it was worth a try and even in the current "worst-case-scenario", not much was lost.

In the end, Porsche had to join forces with VW, one way or the other. Trying to make Porsche take over VW and get rid of the VW law in the process was worth a try.

Eunice:

reginos:

He was viewing things through rosy glasses with optimism brought about by his arrogance after his earlier success at Porsche.

 He was backed by WoPo, and from the owner families perspective it was worth a try and even in the current "worst-case-scenario", not much was lost.

In the end, Porsche had to join forces with VW, one way or the other. Trying to make Porsche take over VW and get rid of the VW law in the process was worth a try.

Is this VW law an issue in Germany, outside Niedersachsen? Is it something that concerns other business organisations and companies?

I don't think so, and that's why the Fed Government and EU have placed a low priority on it and left the matter half finished.

reginos:

Eunice:

reginos:

He was viewing things through rosy glasses with optimism brought about by his arrogance after his earlier success at Porsche.

 He was backed by WoPo, and from the owner families perspective it was worth a try and even in the current "worst-case-scenario", not much was lost.

In the end, Porsche had to join forces with VW, one way or the other. Trying to make Porsche take over VW and get rid of the VW law in the process was worth a try.

Is this VW law an issue in Germany, outside Niedersachsen? Is it something that concerns other business organisations and companies?

I don't think so, and that's why the Fed Government and EU have placed a low priority on it and left the matter half finished.

 It secures the state of Niedersachsen a blocking minority on VW and AFAIK does not affect other businesses. However, it IS violating EU rules and is under investigation, but the matter hasn't been pressed by the EU.

Without the VW law, it would have been easy for Porsche to borrow the money needed to buy 75% of VW (Porsche already had options to do so), gaining access to VW's cash. 

reginos:

W8MM:

 

I think Fritz makes a fair point here.  Like partial differential equations, had other things remained constant, WW would have gotten away with the plan in good standing.

Unfortunately for WW and the Porsche heirs, things didn't remain constant.

But, was not the world always thus?

Yes, but even if WW could not be expected to make the future, IMO he could at least predict future developments and build them into his strategy.

He was viewing things through rosy glasses with optimism brought about by his arrogance after his earlier success at Porsche.

The number of people who accurately predicted the current plight of the world economy is so small as to be invisible. The proportion of those of us who would have mocked them if we had heard them at all is probably nearer 100% than 70%. To say that WW should have predicted future developments and built them into his strategy is, in these circumstances, rather disingenuous.

If the guy had not been over-endowed with self-assurance and self-confidence, and the arrogance which generally seems to go with these traits, he would have been unlikely even to consider taking on the task of trying to save Porsche back in the early 1990s and he would most certainly not have succeeded at it.

I mentioned above the changes in the political situation during the course of this sad story. One of them was a change in the political situation within the Porsche-Piech clan which took place when Ferdinand Piech (who had previously obviously given others the impression that he supported Porsche's acquisition of a large stake in VW) suddenly withheld a decisive vote in a VW board meeting, and also failed to turn up at a subsequent Porsche meeting to explain himself. This was a turning point in events. Some people appear to have forgotten this development or not to have heard of it. For all the mistakes he may have made or the faults he may have, WW is not the main villain in this play.

Despite what you might think from reading the above, I do not engage in blind hero-worship of WW. I know enough of him to realize that he is not I guy I would ever be inclined to want as a personal friend.
If, on the other hand, I was looking for someone to run a company I had a stake in ............

fritz

fritz:

reginos:

W8MM:

 

I think Fritz makes a fair point here.  Like partial differential equations, had other things remained constant, WW would have gotten away with the plan in good standing.

Unfortunately for WW and the Porsche heirs, things didn't remain constant.

But, was not the world always thus?

Yes, but even if WW could not be expected to make the future, IMO he could at least predict future developments and build them into his strategy.

He was viewing things through rosy glasses with optimism brought about by his arrogance after his earlier success at Porsche.

The number of people who accurately predicted the current plight of the world economy is so small as to be invisible. The proportion of those of us who would have mocked them if we had heard them at all is probably nearer 100% than 70%. To say that WW should have predicted future developments and built them into his strategy is, in these circumstances, rather disingenuous.

Despite what you might think from reading the above, I do not engage in blind hero-worship of WW. I know enough of him to realize that he is not I guy I would ever be inclined to want as a personal friend.
If, on the other hand, I was looking for someone to run a company I had a stake in ............

 Fritz, I agree WW would be a good candidate to run most automobile companies. If I was a large shareholder looking for a CEO I would be calling him immediately.

What I don't agree with is WW could not have anticipated the downturn. Any time a corporation decides to engage in a risky strategy, good executives have mapped out different outcomes and have plans to deal with one should it occur. it appears what happened with Porsche is despite signs indicating danger, they continued on a regardless course without financial backing believing " bluster" will get them through it. The ego and attitude that everything I do turns to gold because I will it is a tried and true recipe for self destruction.

nberry:

fritz:

reginos:

W8MM:

 

I think Fritz makes a fair point here.  Like partial differential equations, had other things remained constant, WW would have gotten away with the plan in good standing.

Unfortunately for WW and the Porsche heirs, things didn't remain constant.

But, was not the world always thus?

Yes, but even if WW could not be expected to make the future, IMO he could at least predict future developments and build them into his strategy.

He was viewing things through rosy glasses with optimism brought about by his arrogance after his earlier success at Porsche.

The number of people who accurately predicted the current plight of the world economy is so small as to be invisible. The proportion of those of us who would have mocked them if we had heard them at all is probably nearer 100% than 70%. To say that WW should have predicted future developments and built them into his strategy is, in these circumstances, rather disingenuous.

Despite what you might think from reading the above, I do not engage in blind hero-worship of WW. I know enough of him to realize that he is not I guy I would ever be inclined to want as a personal friend.
If, on the other hand, I was looking for someone to run a company I had a stake in ............

 Fritz, I agree WW would be a good candidate to run most automobile companies. If I was a large shareholder looking for a CEO I would be calling him immediately.

What I don't agree with is WW could not have anticipated the downturn. Any time a corporation decides to engage in a risky strategy, good executives have mapped out different outcomes and have plans to deal with one should it occur. it appears what happened with Porsche is despite signs indicating danger, they continued on a regardless course without financial backing believing " bluster" will get them through it. The ego and attitude that everything I do turns to gold because I will it is a tried and true recipe for self destruction.

My intention is not to belittle WW and wipe off his well documented achievements at Porsche. But my first suspicions as to his arrogant character appeared when he started making bold statements 3-4 years  ago about the "sacred cows" and other in similar aphorisms prematurely and totally needelessly.  And that was before Porsche even had a firm foothold into VW! 

Successful leaders should be characterised by a large degree of humility and people's skills, that WW lacked.

What Nick wrote above summarises the situation very well  "The ego and attitude that everything I do turns to gold because I will it is a tried and true recipe for self destruction."

JimFlat6:

I think Porsche shoppers may have a better future ahead.

WW at Porsche had morphed a car company into a hedge fund that also built cars. Regardless of the successful but awkward looking Cayenne, hyped Cayman or the soon to launch Aunt Panamera, a completely new sports car is needed.

There is no doubt that Piech is probably more passionate about cars, speed and motorsports than any other man in the industry.

I think with Piechs influence, Porsche may get the ability to develop something sensational instead of just cranking out slight improved 911's for  each model year.

Good luck to Porsche!

I don't say you're not right but I doubt that Piech is going to change much.

It really depends on how Volkswagen wants to position Porsche into their "empire".

I just hope that instead of dumping the Cayenne and Panamera, which btw. is not very likely, especially the Cayenne will stay for another generation, they start to improve these models, especially their looks. The next gen Cayenne already looks pretty good (saw a sketch of the real thing, it looks nice and refined), I just hope that the Panamera finds its way too after the first facelift. The other models, especially the Cayman, are a different story. Porsche needs to stay the manufacturer of "daily driver" sportscars but they also need to put more emphasis on their sportscar heritage. At the same time, the base prices of these cars need to come down a little bit.

Good luck to Porsche, I don't know if things are going to change completely but at least Porsche needs to earn money with cars now, not an easy task if you ask me.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Whoopsy:

Piech is not a bit 'un-hinged', he is downt hostile towards the Porsche family.

Piech IS Porsche, don't forget it. He has a different name but his mother was a Porsche, so is Piech.

Piech knew exactly what is going on according to one of my sources who is very close to the family, he backed WW and Härter up to a point and he gave the green light. Then things didn't run too well, especially with the local politicians in Niedersachsen and the VW union, Piech probably forsaw huge problems and wanted to stop the whole thing. The family was a bit too greedy I guess, so they still had faith in Dr. Wiedeking and Mr. Härter.

Everything is speculation of course but to think that the Porsche family makes major decisions without the involvement of Mr. Piech is ridiculous. He knew from the beginning but was playing the VW card to keep everybody thinking that he opposes the deal. He didn't. He started to oppose it when the first signs of major trouble came up.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

His mother is a Porsche but he since his father is a Piech and he takes on the last name Piech, he is no longer consider a pure Porsche :)

Ever since the whole saga unfold late last year, Piech had been sabotaging the deal, siding with the opposition every step, be it politicians, union, he knew his power over VW would have been eroded by his cousins at the Porsche clan, as a egomaniac, he cannot take that. He was only supportive to the initial Porsche investment on VW. Even up until the point when EU rule the VW law illegal, the deal was still sound on the financial front, the market was still good enough for Porsche to finance the whole thing had the takeover went through unhindered. Yes the market was going sour but had they completed the deal earlier, Porsche would have had access to the VW war chest to weather the downturn no problem.

Piech of course knew the Porsche clan's plan, but he sees it differently, he knew if he had stall the deal long enough, Porsche the company would have been squeezed enough that he can do a reverse takeover, which makes much more sense to a egomaniac like him because he would have keep his power at VW while increase his say at Porsche, he would have the last laugh over his cousins.

Piech alone is a already a powerful figure, he probably has more political influences than the Porsche brothers, he could have convinced the unions and the politicians to back the original deal which probably was his original mission in the initial plan.

Hard to imagine Piech backing WW, he never like the guy and this was an opportunity for Piech to get rid of him.

People keep blaming WW and Harter for the bold move, but the truth is they are only the executors, they reports to the Porsche clan and they are just the casualties from the family feud.

It looks like changes are already being made.

Wendy's PR man "retires".

Stuttgart. Anton Hunger (60), long-time Head of Public Relations at
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG and since 2007 of Porsche Automobil Holding SE, this friday retires from his position after 17 successful years with the producer of sporty luxury cars. By request from the new Porsche CEO Michael Macht he will make himself available in a consulting role to the company.

Dr. Albrecht Bamler (51), company spokesman, and Frank Gaube (48), Head of Financial Press and Investor Relations, will jointly take responsibility for Public Relations at Porsche SE. Christian Dau (47) will remain in charge of Public Relations at Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG.

Hunger, born 1948 in Cham/Bavaria, initially completed an apprenticeship as typesetter and a trainee program at publishing house Südwest-Presse, before studying economics, political science and sociology at the universities of Tübin-gen and Regensburg respectively. Following this he worked 16 years as an economic journalist for the daily "Stuttgarter Zeitung" and later for the Munich based monthly "Industriemagazin". 1992 he took over responsibility as Head of Public Relations of the Stuttgart based sportscar manufacturer. Alongside
Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking, Porsche's long-time CEO who resigned recently, Hunger was significantly involved in making Porsche the company with the best image in Germany.

K-GO

Whoopsy:

His mother is a Porsche but he since his father is a Piech and he takes on the last name Piech, he is no longer consider a pure Porsche :)

Ever since the whole saga unfold late last year, Piech had been sabotaging the deal, siding with the opposition every step, be it politicians, union, he knew his power over VW would have been eroded by his cousins at the Porsche clan, as a egomaniac, he cannot take that. He was only supportive to the initial Porsche investment on VW. 

Don't believe everything you read... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Piech: "Going forward, we envision Porsche to embrace the VW vision, developing a modular construction system that saves costs by allowing several different cars to share the same underpinnings."

This was sent to me by email, emanating from somewhere in Stuttgart, so you should take it with a grain of salt. I don't have a web site link.

Piech has to "save" now what is left of the desaster and the first thing he plans to do is actually to EARN MONEY with Porsche cars. This is only possible by lowering production cost, meaning that a lot of common VW/Audi parts will be used in future Porsche products but mainly there, where you can't see them. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Piech has to "save" now what is left of the desaster and the first thing he plans to do is actually to EARN MONEY with Porsche cars. This is only possible by lowering production cost, meaning that a lot of common VW/Audi parts will be used in future Porsche products but mainly there, where you can't see them. 

But isn't this the case already mainly with the Cayenne and the the Panamera?

Even the Boxster and 911 have lots of VW Group  parts, like climate control, park assist etc.

But anyway the 2011+ new models (Cayenne.2 ,991and probably the new Boxster) are already designed and ready and provided they last for 6-7 years, it means this strategy if implemented will affect finances in 10 years time. And Piech will be replaced by a new model too, in all probability!

True, the Cayenne and even the Panamera has lots of VW/Audi parts but even more will be used, prerferrably without extensive adaptation. My guess is that the next gen Cayenne and Touraeg will share much more parts than now, only the engines (with the exception of the V6/V6 Diesel, supercharged V6 hybrid and Diesel) will be different.

I still don't see how Porsche wants to sell 30000 Cayenne and 30000 Panamera (next "step") per year but maybe I'm wrong, I was wrong about the first gen Cayenne too.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

GM has been resurrected but with a different name, VW. 

nberry:

GM has been resurrected but with a different name, VW. 

Nick,

I think you have it backwards.

Now that Obama controls part of GM, that makes it more like the government control at VW, No?

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow

2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray

1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau

2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

You may have a point. I was referencing the failed GM model which VW seems hell bent on emulating.