Crown

Just had another chat with a colleague who now owns his GTR and who already tracked the car. We will meet in about 8 weeks to do a track comparison between Scuderia, GT2 and GTR. Performance wise he already compared the GTR to the Scuderia (Leipzig track) and says that the Scuderia is a bit faster.

In general, he likes the GTR as it handles very well for a car of that size and weight. He also praises the gear-box (very fast, very smooth) and the AWD which offers excellent traction.

Major disadvantages are:

- the gear-box oil temperature goes above 140°C after 3-4 laps which requires the driver to stop (cool down phase for the car)

- the brakes show fading after about 3 laps in Leipzig

- he estimates that tire wear is about 3-4 times the tires wear of a GT3; also, he says that tire wear is very substantial under normal Autobahn conditions

- the gear-box oil needs to be exchanged as soon as the  oil temperature exceeds 110°C three times; he says that this can even happen if the car is driven fast on the Autobahn (not to speek of the track)

- the warranty (according to German warranty specs) is voided if the car is used on a track once

- the warranty is also voided if ESP is switched off

- the GTR consumes up to 35l/100km if driven fast on country roads...

MKSGR:

- the GTR consumes up to 35l/100km if driven fast on country roads...

That's like v12 Lambo fuel consumption!

There a LOT of  big minuses in his report. I know that he might be a "extreme" user that represents only 5% of the general buyers but still, there are other weak, every day points. (tires, fuel consumption)

I have a feeling that this car suffers from the "first gen syndrome" meaning wait for at lest the second or preferably third edition of the car to get one and be at ease. Until then I would only consider it as a experimental buy, test the new beast on the market... taking a gamble so to say

Oh and the thread is in the wrong section... Made me thng there are some F450 news!

Indeed the thread is in the wrong section.

Perhaps it should be moved to 'Other Sports Cars'

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

Thanks MKSGR. First ( or second) hand reports are much better then numbers on y newpaper !

It reflects what the people I know have said about the car.

It' s great to go fast on B-Roads, even very fast even and very easy to drive, but do not take it on a track !!!!

easy_rider911:

Perhaps it should be moved to 'Other Sports Cars'

 I moved it.

Gnil:

Thanks MKSGR. First ( or second) hand reports are much better then numbers on y newpaper !

It reflects what the people I know have said about the car.

It' s great to go fast on B-Roads, even very fast even and very easy to drive, but do not take it on a track !!!!

  Which is why 99% of the owners buy the car. In the US, Porsche does not honor the warranty if the failure is due to track related events. Also, keep in mind that the maintenance cost of the GT-R with its Carrera GT like performance is not all bad considering the price of the car compared to the GT and the GT maintenance cost. Everything is relative. 

MKSGR:

 

....  - the warranty is also voided if ESP is switched off

 

 ?!?!   so they expect to to buy a performance car and drive it like a fiat 500. you can't put a car like the GTR in the market, sell it as a competitor for other hardcore sports cars, and then tell the costumer that any sport-related use of the car will void the warranty. its nonsense !!!

nberry:

the GT-R with its Carrera GT like performance 

 (Good joke)

Eunice:

easy_rider911:

Perhaps it should be moved to 'Other Sports Cars'

 I moved it.

 Many thanks 

Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing.  Some counter perspectives:

I took the GTR to the track several weeks ago and it was like close to 100degF.  I had 4 20 minute sessions on Infineon raceway and only once did the gear box temp exceed 230degF (110degC), and that was for like a minute or so.  Brakes felt the same throughout the session.  Maybe I wasn't pushing the car hard enough like your friend?

Nissan does recommend changing the gearbox temperature once it exceeds 110degC within like 5000km or so.  But I think there needs to be a certain duration at the higher temps in order to require a gear box oil change, based on Nissan's computer diagnostics.  Several people I know of have been to the track like 2 or 3 times with the GTR and the computer analysis shows that no gear box change is required.  Oil analysis confirms this as well. 

However, the front differential fluid is recommended to be changed more often, but that is relatively cheap to do.

In the US, the warranty is not affected by going to track.  I guess it's different in Europe?  Does this apply for non-compettive events as well?

Yes, warranty is voided if VDC (ESP) is turned off.  But thus far, many people have not found many reasons to do so yet.

Thus far, I have averaged about 19mpg in mixed driving, over several thousand miles.  So mpg is not that bad.

nberry:

Gnil:

Thanks MKSGR. First ( or second) hand reports are much better then numbers on y newpaper !

It reflects what the people I know have said about the car.

It' s great to go fast on B-Roads, even very fast even and very easy to drive, but do not take it on a track !!!!

  Which is why 99% of the owners buy the car. In the US, Porsche does not honor the warranty if the failure is due to track related events. Also, keep in mind that the maintenance cost of the GT-R with its Carrera GT like performance is not all bad considering the price of the car compared to the GT and the GT maintenance cost. Everything is relative. 

Comparing it to the CGT does not make any sence. And if you compare the maintenance prices to a TT, then you are probably better off with the Porsche.

baron:

Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing.  Some counter perspectives:

I took the GTR to the track several weeks ago and it was like close to 100degF.  I had 4 20 minute sessions on Infineon raceway and only once did the gear box temp exceed 230degF (110degC), and that was for like a minute or so.  Brakes felt the same throughout the session.  Maybe I wasn't pushing the car hard enough like your friend?

 

Another explanation could be that the tracks he did (Leipzig and GP track in Hockenheim) are rather extreme as far as  brake wear (and potentially oil temperature) are concerned. Also, he noted that you can bring the oil temperature to above 110°C by just doing some high-speed Autobahn driving. Of course, conditions of use are more extreme in Germany in this regard 

Gnil:

nberry:

Gnil:

Thanks MKSGR. First ( or second) hand reports are much better then numbers on y newpaper !

It reflects what the people I know have said about the car.

It' s great to go fast on B-Roads, even very fast even and very easy to drive, but do not take it on a track !!!!

  Which is why 99% of the owners buy the car. In the US, Porsche does not honor the warranty if the failure is due to track related events. Also, keep in mind that the maintenance cost of the GT-R with its Carrera GT like performance is not all bad considering the price of the car compared to the GT and the GT maintenance cost. Everything is relative. 

Comparing it to the CGT does not make any sence. And if you compare the maintenance prices to a TT, then you are probably better off with the Porsche.

 Why not? Let us assume for the moment that Susuki's time was aided by modification, nevertheless it beat the CGT time by 3-6 sec. at the Ring. OR if you take V Surma's time. the CGT beat it by only 6 sec.

Here we are taking about two cars one a general production car costing $75,000 and the other a limited super sport car costing $450,000. One has 475hp and the other 615hp.

Do you have any idea regarding the cost to replace a CGT clutch, oil change or other maintenance cost? Do you have any idea regarding how the CGT can eat tires?

In one sense you are right. it is not fair to compare them when considering value/performance.

nberry: with its Carrera GT like performance,,,

nberry:

Gnil:

nberry:

Gnil:

Thanks MKSGR. First ( or second) hand reports are much better then numbers on y newpaper !

It reflects what the people I know have said about the car.

It' s great to go fast on B-Roads, even very fast even and very easy to drive, but do not take it on a track !!!!

  Which is why 99% of the owners buy the car. In the US, Porsche does not honor the warranty if the failure is due to track related events. Also, keep in mind that the maintenance cost of the GT-R with its Carrera GT like performance is not all bad considering the price of the car compared to the GT and the GT maintenance cost. Everything is relative. 

Comparing it to the CGT does not make any sence. And if you compare the maintenance prices to a TT, then you are probably better off with the Porsche.

 Why not? Let us assume for the moment that Susuki's time was aided by modification, nevertheless it beat the CGT time by 3-6 sec. at the Ring. OR if you take V Surma's time. the CGT beat it by only 6 sec.

Here we are taking about two cars one a general production car costing $75,000 and the other a limited super sport car costing $450,000. One has 475hp and the other 615hp.

Do you have any idea regarding the cost to replace a CGT clutch, oil change or other maintenance cost? Do you have any idea regarding how the CGT can eat tires?

In one sense you are right. it is not fair to compare them when considering value/performance.

 

 We probably all agree with you that a Nissan GTR is by far cheaper than a Carrera GT. Also, we all agree that the Carrera CGT spare parts are much more expensive than those of a Nissan GTR.

The rest of you logic, sorry to say this, does not make any sense at all...

Even with tires developed 8 years ago (!) the CGT is 6s faster on the NBR and 2s faster on the HHR. In addition, please note that cars like a CGT (or GT3 or GT2) are built to survive more than 1 lap on the track. They don't overheat. Their brakes don't suffer. It is little details like these plus several seconds per lap that make the big difference  Some are willing to pay money for those "little" advantages, you know...

Of course, the GTR has the better cup holder (thinking of the famous coffee brand here)  ()

janus:

There a LOT of  big minuses in his report. I know that he might be a "extreme" user that represents only 5% of the general buyers but still, there are other weak, every day points. (tires, fuel consumption)

I have a feeling that this car suffers from the "first gen syndrome" meaning wait for at lest the second or preferably third edition of the car to get one and be at ease. Until then I would only consider it as a experimental buy, test the new beast on the market... taking a gamble so to say

 

Oh and the thread is in the wrong section... Made me thng there are some F450 news!

About gearbox temperature... Few days ago I had a drive with my friend in his GT-R and on very fast drive between Ostrovica(highway exit) and Jadranovo gearbox temperature went very, very high. As you know Gornje Jelenje is relatively demading for driving but, I did not expect that(and my friend was totally disappointed. Overall he expect much more from the car).

I can't believe that someone who has driven a Carrera GT could compare it with the GTR...And please don't bring the "value" factor here. CGT is not for value. There are enough people in the world who don't care if the car costs $200 000 or $500 000 - for them it's a week's pay. They just want a CGT and the feeling of possessing it, driving it, looking at it...

I can understand his disappointment Kreso. It is a great value overall but the car doesn't offer that "bulletproof" feeling that, say, TT does.

Maybe if the model survives and they evolve it over the years it will earn that right. But if they go and build a whole new car in 3-4 yrs then there will be simmilar baby ssues all ove again. While that is normal, for any new car it stands out more in sports car performance/price level

I would think that if the GTR and CGT were driven with the same tires, on the same track, and at the same time, the CGT has to be faster given an expert driver.  Of course, if the driver is not an expert in driving the CGT, the gap will be closer.

Take note that the Nurburging has probably gotten a bit faster since Sport Auto tested the CGT some time ago.

I don't know but CGT mainteance is on a different level than even the GTR.  Engine oil changes are like $1k, and clutch change could be over $20k.  But I've had the CGT at like 13k miles and so far the clutch still checks out okay, so it depends on how you drive it.

Do you know roughly what temps your friend got the gear box temp to?  He should consider adding a transmission  oil cooler, there are some vendors that sell it.  Drops temps by like 15 deg F.

baron:

Do you know roughly what temps your friend got the gear box temp to?  He should consider adding a transmission  oil cooler, there are some vendors that sell it.  Drops temps by like 15 deg F.

Over 110 deg C. To be fully honest it is very, very warm currently in Croatia. Ambinet  temperature was over 30 deg C that day. BUT, I have no issues of that kind of R8...

I never stated that the GT-R was a better car than a CGT. But the reality regarding stated purposes of the two cars does lead one to believe the GT-R is a performance car in the same league as the CGT. The CGT is a beast to drive and unless you are very skilled, in most track functions, you will be faster in the GT-R.

So if your goal is to track a car at your fastest possible speed more than likely you will do it in a GT-R and not in the CGT. That said, if I had to own one super sport car today it would be the CGT (especially of it had PSM),

Never buy a car that is too much for you to handle unless it is your GT car. The CGT is for 95% of the drivers too much to handle. Thus, for practicality the GT-R has it over the CGT.It is what it is.

nberry:

I never stated that the GT-R was a better car than a CGT. But the reality regarding stated purposes of the two cars does lead one to believe the GT-R is a performance car in the same league as the CGT. The CGT is a beast to drive and unless you are very skilled, in most track functions, you will be faster in the GT-R.

 

Maybe equal to it for a lap or two. If all you care about is the track, there are better and cheaper options than a GT-R. If you want an absolutely wicked car and don't care about the money, get the CGT. Or you could split the difference and get a GT3.

nberry:

I never stated that the GT-R was a better car than a CGT. But the reality regarding stated purposes of the two cars does lead one to believe the GT-R is a performance car in the same league as the CGT. The CGT is a beast to drive and unless you are very skilled, in most track functions, you will be faster in the GT-R.

So if your goal is to track a car at your fastest possible speed more than likely you will do it in a GT-R and not in the CGT. That said, if I had to own one super sport car today it would be the CGT (especially of it had PSM),

Never buy a car that is too much for you to handle unless it is your GT car. The CGT is for 95% of the drivers too much to handle. Thus, for practicality the GT-R has it over the CGT.It is what it is.

 

 You might be right if we are talking about a very unskilled driver. However, I can tell you (just as an example) that I am definitively "slow" and "unskilled" compared to true professionals. However, a colleague who now got his GTR is quite a good driver. He, just as an example, does the Leipzig track in about 1.50-1.51 in his GTR. I do a 1.48 in a GT2. If I had the skills of a WR or similar I could do a 1.43 in my car (thus being 5s quicker). Still, I am 2-3s faster than this colleague in the GTR. Despite my lack of talent.

I am just stating this to illustrate how bad a driver you need to be to be faster in a GTR than in a GT2 (or CGT)...

MKSGR:

- the gear-box oil temperature goes above 140°C after 3-4 laps which requires the driver to stop (cool down phase for the car)

Just please clarify, does the GTR have a separate gearbox temp, gauge?

Porsche shows engine temp only. In my case it often goes to 110+ but never above 120, but are these values comparable to the GTR?

Markus, I am sure there are situations where what I stated would not apply. My point is directed to the general driving population and I suspect most would do better in a GT-R. 

reginos:

MKSGR:

- the gear-box oil temperature goes above 140°C after 3-4 laps which requires the driver to stop (cool down phase for the car)

Just please clarify, does the GTR have a separate gearbox temp, gauge?

Porsche shows engine temp only. In my case it often goes to 110+ but never above 120, but are these values comparable to the GTR?

 

YES. Look very carefully at this pic...

See the upper right gauge? Transmission temperature...

It is not engine temperature.