Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring - Page1

Jun 7, 2009 3:40:37 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13735, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Walter

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Here we go again.

In the past, when other cars beat Porsche's in straight line performance, Porschephiles argued with indignation that straight line performance is irrelevant in the sport car world. it is times at the Ring or other performance circuits.

Now that the GTR is kicking Porsche butt at the Ring and other circuits, Porschephiles now argue that the TT is faster in the straight line especially over 100 mph and that is what matters.

IS there no shame?????

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Jun 7, 2009 3:52:35 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Nick, buddy, time for you to switch to decaf!... lately I'm sensing you get all worked up about trivial stuff or in the absense of, see giants were there are windmills relaxxx

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Jun 7, 2009 3:56:46 PM

Super Darius: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Italy-Como , Italy; Posts: 4084, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Nick no problem..

think one thing..Porsche is better EVER,so nothing to discuss..NEVER!

--
997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

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Jun 7, 2009 4:02:32 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14167, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

MKSGR:

Walter:

I always loved the 993 and 996 Turbo a lot more than than the GT2s and GT3s because the Turbo was able 2 things at once: be fast on the race track and usable every day. If I wanted something for the track only I would do things properly and buy a Caterham or Radical.

The funny thing is: I would have agreed with your view BEFORE I got my GT2...

Today I really have to force myself to use my Audi (which is also a nice car per se - 450hp, 12 cylinders, B&O, Ceramic Brakes etc.). Why? Simply because I enjoy the GT2 tremendously in day-to-day use.

Example: next week I need to go to: Basel, Stuttgart, Berlin (total ca. 2000km). I really needed to "force" me to put the GT2 into the garage and take out the Audi (I need to give some people a ride next week...). While one could argue that the GT2 is not at all suited for doing 2000km in three days the truth is that there is no car which is more fun on these trips than a GT2 Since owning the car I do approx. 3000km a month with it

That's the spirit !!!!!

--
997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

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Jun 7, 2009 4:18:26 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13735, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Gnil

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

I can't help to be exasperated. The shifting views and inconsistencies of Porschephiles is unbelievable.

Though I would buy a Porsche TT over the GTR, I would do it knowing that the GTR is a better performing car. No ifs, buts or I don't know about it. It is a truism and to have Porsche owners go into denial is ludicrous.

However, I did recently change my Kona coffee from Hawaii and it may be more caffeinated.

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Jun 7, 2009 4:35:29 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Gnil

Well done, fatman from Kentucky

Gnil:

A friend of mine drove the GTR on the Ring. He says that for one lap it is hard to find anything else that is faster, ( he drives a Corvette ZO6 slightly modified and does the Ring in 7:45 )

I guess he needs to upgrade then.

Why all this talk about the GTR. It is ugly and well beaten by the Corvette. The vette even looks good from the outside and sounds good.

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Jun 7, 2009 4:36:44 PM

Gauss: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 5821, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 3, 2003; Reply to: racerx

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

The Corvette just pulls and pulls and pulls! Nice video racerx!

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Jun 7, 2009 4:49:11 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Walter

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Walter:

MKSGR:

No, I actually did not buy this issue of AMS. What did they say about the tires

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/9213/frscan010005.jpg

Last sentence.

That is the same Crash posted above. They used a 997TT with non-Cup tires (which obviously doesn't make much sense as track oriented buyers order the car with Cups or Corsas).

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Jun 7, 2009 4:50:55 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

nberry:

Here we go again.

In the past, when other cars beat Porsche's in straight line performance, Porschephiles argued with indignation that straight line performance is irrelevant in the sport car world. it is times at the Ring or other performance circuits.

Now that the GTR is kicking Porsche butt at the Ring and other circuits, Porschephiles now argue that the TT is faster in the straight line especially over 100 mph and that is what matters.

IS there no shame?????

Nick,

performance above 100mph is of quite some importance to German buyers... If you drove a GTR in Germany chances are not too small that you would notice that other cars are faster at high speeds in real life situations...

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Jun 7, 2009 4:52:18 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Carlos from Spain:

x

--

Carlos, that smiley is very nice Smiley Smiley

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Jun 7, 2009 5:00:06 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Even more the vette destroys the gtr in braking and cornering

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Jun 7, 2009 5:04:34 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Help GM out of a bind, If you care about numbers in regards to sprts cars the ZR-1 seems to be at the top unless you want to spend 7 figures

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Jun 7, 2009 5:36:44 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

racerx:

Help GM out of a bind, If you care about numbers in regards to sprts cars the ZR-1 seems to be at the top unless you want to spend 7 figures

I think that the ZR1 is probably the only other car which can be compared to GT2 and Scuderia in terms of over-all performance. Should have identical lap times as the GT2 and the acceleration is also on par with the GT2 Smiley

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Jun 7, 2009 5:41:46 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

It is better by numbers even more when price is considered. It even looks good outside and sounds good. more performance numbers

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Jun 7, 2009 6:16:04 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

racerx:

It is better by numbers even more when price is considered. It even looks good outside and sounds good. more performance numbers

There was a 0-300 comparison of ZR1 and GT2 in AMS recently. Numbers were pretty much equal (GT2 was marginally quicker). Regarding expected NBR performance: I would expect a very comparable result (given that GM claims 7.27 and SportAuto will probably be a bit slower). Also, remember the Z06 Supertest result wich was about 1.11,7 on HHR and 7.49 on NBR Smiley

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Jun 7, 2009 6:55:18 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: racerx

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

racerx:
Why all this talk about the GTR. It is ugly and well beaten by the Corvette. The vette even looks good from the outside and sounds good.

And its a proper sportcar with full RWD and manual tranny, and can do more than just one lap without falling apart.

I'm not thrilled with the looks of the Vette but given the choice I would chose it over the "One-lap-wonder fully-automatic-driven fully automatic-shifting overweight disposable playstation sportcar" of the GT-R Smiley

--

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Jun 7, 2009 7:16:10 PM

Gauss: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 5821, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 3, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

Carlos from Spain:

And its a proper sportcar with full RWD and manual tranny, and can do more than just one lap without falling apart.

I'm not thrilled with the looks of the Vette but given the choice I would chose it over the "One-lap-wonder fully-automatic-driven fully automatic-shifting overweight disposable playstation sportcar" of the GT-R

--

Smiley Smiley Smiley

--

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Jun 7, 2009 7:51:03 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Gauss

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

What the ZR1 proves is that the US car manf.'s had the knowledge to make the best in the world before the economy tanked, they could even make a world class interior if they wanted to. There is even a single american individual owner in the 928 community that makes second to none world class interior components.

I suspect they don't because of cost and culture. They are not meteros concerned about wine tastings, its a six pack crowd.

But finally they have massaged the wedge of cheese into something nice on the outside.

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Jun 7, 2009 7:55:55 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

A nice level of finish

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Jun 7, 2009 8:11:42 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: racerx

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

I wouldn't call it a nice level of finsih, lets not go overborad either, the interior is just like the normal corvette, simply horrible, and the boy racer add-ons on the exterior don't help it much, the Z06 looks much better, but you can't have absolutely everything, the point is, there is an economic high-performing sportcar out there without the need of dragging around 1800kg, full control electronic nannies even at the track and all controlling AWD for it to work, only auto, good only for a lap, etc.

--

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Jun 7, 2009 9:20:12 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14167, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

I had a extensive and intense drive with my friends moded Z06 today on some local mountain passes. I was truly amased at how easy it was to drive this car fast and how it is glued to the ground ! You can push that front so hard into the curves and it just .....turns... !!! Very impressed by it.

BTW : last time on the N'ring F1 circuit his friend had the ZR1 and they stayed pretty much at the same pace. He recons the extra weight of the ZR1 compared to the Z06 is not worth the extra power. My friends Z06 has about 580 HP, race brakes, lower springs and has been set up and chassis tuned by a race corvette specialist.

--
997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

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Jun 7, 2009 10:19:57 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

Carlos from Spain:

I wouldn't call it a nice level of finsih, lets not go overborad either, the interior is just like the normal corvette, simply horrible, and the boy racer add-ons on the exterior don't help it much, the Z06 looks much better, but you can't have absolutely everything, the point is, there is an economic high-performing sportcar out there without the need of dragging around 1800kg, full control electronic nannies even at the track and all controlling AWD for it to work, only auto, good only for a lap, etc.

By finish I mean outside appearance and I think the curves and shape is the best the vette has ever looked

As far as boy racer add-ons what do you call the wing. lip and extra vents on a GT2 and GT3, and even large script. Thats the exact same thing. That is the definition of boy racer.

Gnil in stock form Z06 6.3lbs/hp and ZR1 5.2lbs./hp.

But since this is a board where people drool over 20 hp increments every 3 years the ZR1 power is nothing to pass-up.

ZR1 $103,000. GT-R $84,000. GT2 $194,000.

Lets give credit where credit is due. (and I am not even a corvette guy) The ZR1 is by far the best buy in ultra performance cars from a manufacturer. And from the videos I have presented here is better in almost every category than the best production porsche and ferrari at 1/2 and less than 1/3 the price.

You guys qwibble about numbers ad nauseum, not me, and by the numbers the Vette RULES!

If you JUST want the best looking, best interiored (sp), most enjoyable sports car w/o worrying about numbers you buy a 928. Smiley

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Jun 7, 2009 10:36:20 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: racerx

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

The ZR1 is cheaper than a Ferrari, Lambo or a Porsche and offers similar performance, i.e. better performace/value but it is not the better car of the four, for most would be the last choice of the four, i.e. not better overlall... big difference. Lets not get carried away like the GT-R fan boys. These cars only really compare as a whole when you factor in price into the ecuation.

As to the comment about the 928, coming from someone else I would consider it a humurous jab but coming from you I'm not sure you actually meant it literally

--

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Jun 8, 2009 12:37:00 AM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

from wiki

The American auto magazine Motor Trend recently tested a 2008 Porsche 911 GT2 0-60 mph at 3.3 seconds[4], and 11.3 seconds at 129.1 mph (207.8 km/h) for the quarter mile. The GT2 also recorded a braking distance from 60 mph (97 km/h) to 0 of 98 feet (30 m) and recorded 1.10g lateral grip.

German Porsche test driver Walter Röhrl recently lapped the Nürburgring Nordschleife on a public day in 7 minutes 32 seconds in the new 997 GT2.

That looks amazingly equal to the above video's except for the ring video of 7:26 for the vette. So yes I would say very similiar but better for the vette because it did cross the line first in regards to the GT2, Same goes for ferrari.

So if by numbers alone including HP and TQ then the ZR1 is slightly nudging ahead it would seem, price independent.

If you start including interior and other subjective factors, watch out because the 928 starts opening up a lead. Smiley

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Jun 8, 2009 6:31:05 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14167, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

Carlos from Spain:

The ZR1 is cheaper than a Ferrari, Lambo or a Porsche and offers similar performance, i.e. better performace/value but it is not the better car of the four, for most would be the last choice of the four, i.e. not better overlall... big difference. Lets not get carried away like the GT-R fan boys. These cars only really compare as a whole when you factor in price into the ecuation.

As to the comment about the 928, coming from someone else I would consider it a humurous jab but coming from you I'm not sure you actually meant it literally

Carlos, you would be very surprised at how well a properly tuned ( chassis wise) ZO6 performs. Am I am talking real life driving, not magazines numbers or pro pilot driving.

At the last Scuderia Hanseat session , which hold excellent drivers from all over europe, the only competition my friend had was a GT2 and one Scud ( out of many other scuds) The scud was beaten on the F1 track. And he stayed very close to the Gt2. The thing is that the Corvette is not scary at the limits. You can arrive too fast into a curb and easily put the car back in the right track. With the Gt2 , it gets much more scary at the limits..... you don't want to loose the back at high speeds.

So often numbers are better for one car , but then for '' very good non pro'' drivers it is easier to go fast with some cars then others. The Corvette is in that league.

The oinly thing it has to be chassis tuned. The factory set up is crap ! And it needs other brakes.

--
997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

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Jun 8, 2009 10:05:47 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

racerx:

That looks amazingly equal to the above video's except for the ring video of 7:26 for the vette. So yes I would say very similiar but better for the vette because it did cross the line first in regards to the GT2, Same goes for ferrari.

I don't think the ZR1 is any faster than the GT2. Wait for the Supertest Smiley

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Jun 8, 2009 2:51:10 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Well done, fatman from Kentucky

I saw a blue ZR-1 on the road last week and I must say that it looked and sounded fantastic. They have done a great job with that car, and the performance numbers are more than respectable. Nice job GM!

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Jun 8, 2009 4:59:30 PM

WAY: Rennteam Master; Loc: Melbourne, Australia; Posts: 3344, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

MKSGR:

Walter:

So I only have to buy the most expensive Porsche available to be faster than a 1800kg Datsun?

You can also buy the GT3: it is just 30% more expensive and has very similar performance (the GT3 being slightly faster on tighter tracks, the GTR being slightly faster on faster tracks). For those 30% more you get better reliability, more driving pleasure, top-quality and a real Porsche

Driving a Nissan you will never get rid of this nasty feeling that you should have made this small additional investment into perfection... That is also the reason why 99.9% of Porsche drivers will not buy a GTR. If you are used to the best you rather invest a bit more than spend less but make a big compromise. I rather spend 200k on the best than 80k on a compromise. Why? Simple answer: even 80k is a substantial sum. Too much for second best

I am starting to understand some of the push-back on GT-R by our European friends. GT3 is only 30% more? Over here, GTR is $149k, and GT3 is $279k, almost 100% more! Would that change your view?

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Jun 8, 2009 5:20:47 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: WAY

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

Wow Smiley That is a massive price gap. Very different from the situation here in Europe (or the US).

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Jun 8, 2009 6:17:26 PM

Super Darius: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Italy-Como , Italy; Posts: 4084, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: WAY

Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

WAY:

I am starting to understand some of the push-back on GT-R by our European friends. GT3 is only 30% more? Over here, GTR is $149k, and GT3 is $279k, almost 100% more! Would that change your view?

well..if you put in this way... Smiley i will take the GTR

but knowing me,every time i will see GT3 i know it would be better to change road.. Smiley

Smiley

--
997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

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Well done, fatman from Kentucky

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