May 27, 2009 11:45:46 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005

Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Sorry if this is a repost and if the source is not reputable, but there is rumor that PAG is in a big hole. Article is here. Rumor or truth?

Porsche Short $4.4b For Continued Operations, Close To Bankruptcy?

May 26th, 2009
by
Mike Stevens
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WHAT A TIME it’s been for Porsche lately. First the German supercar manufacturer began circling to take over its Volkswagen parent, and then, thanks to the global financial meltdown and finding itself stumbling for funds, the two began discussing a merger.

More recently, those merger talks were put on hold, with Volkswagen declaring Porsche unready for such a step.

Now, German magazine Der Spiegel is reporting that Porsche has found itself $15.3 billion in debt due to its recent manoeuvring to garner a 51 percent majority share in Volkswagen.

Worse still, the report claims the company is $4.4 billion short of the funds needed to keep its operations rolling, asking the German government for $179 million in emergency short term loans.

According to Der Spiegel, the situation at Porsche is so bleak that the company came desperately close to bankruptcy for a period in early March.

It has to be said that without any official acknowledgement from either Porsche of Volkswagen, it’s difficult to ascertain the accuracy of the report.

According to UK paper The Telegraph, Porsche is in talks with the Bank of Tokyo for a $1.3b loan, in addition to the help it has requested from the German Government.

This WILL be a case of “watch this space”.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

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May 28, 2009 12:05:51 AM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

What do we care Cannga? - we got our GT1 block perfect cars:) Not really interested in what's next any more...

VW have been loaning Porsche a few Euros recently though to help them through the troubled times...

--

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May 28, 2009 12:37:13 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Alex_997TT:

What do we care Cannga? - we got our GT1 block perfect cars:) Not really interested in what's next any more...

VW have been loaning Porsche a few Euros recently though to help them through the troubled times...

--

My somewhat twisted dream scenario is for Pieech to swallow up Porsche and pull his 917/30, air-cooled, turbocharged flat-12 out of mothballs and put it into a CarreraGT replacement supercar, making 1500bhp and 1000lb-ft torque.

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1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

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2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

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May 28, 2009 12:42:29 AM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

I think the guy who designed the CGT left the company a while back so any successor would look more like the Cayenne/Panamera than a good looking sports car

I saw a AM DBS today that rather took my fancy, currently there is nothing in the Porsche pipeline that would convince me to help them out with their money troubles and buy a car from them!

--

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May 28, 2009 2:59:25 PM

Joost: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Dordrecht , Netherlands; Posts: 8055, Gallery; Registered on: May 3, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Why don't they just sell their volkswagen shares? That should provide them with some cash...

--

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May 28, 2009 3:03:57 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Joost

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Joost:

Why don't they just sell their volkswagen shares? That should provide them with some cash...

Greed Smiley

--
Happy Driving

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May 28, 2009 5:03:59 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Ron (Houston):

Joost:

Why don't they just sell their volkswagen shares? That should provide them with some cash...

Greed

One would think so considering all the on-going problems in the financial world creating by greed, but I really would like to give Porsche the benefit of the doubt. I thought PAG's move for controlling stake of VW was to ensure Porsche's long term existence, independence, etc.

A few months ago, I read that Porsche's acquisition of Volkswagen had actually caused a classic short squeeze (article here) and wrecked havocs among hedge funds, might have sadly caused some ex-billionaire in Germany to commit suicide. Little did I know, that PAG might have gotten itself into a big mess. Could Porsche might in fact have squandered its once considereable fortune and lost its independence, as a result of this? If so, the irony. Did "someone" screw up big time here?

As a Porsche die-hard enthusiast, I would like the company to do well. I hope this "problem" won't create lay-off's, in addition to the hit that every car company is taking, and won't affect its R&D, motorsports activities, and future car projects.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

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May 28, 2009 5:16:10 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: cannga

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

cannga:

... I really would like to give Porsche the benefit of the doubt. I thought PAG's move for controlling stake of VW was to ensure Porsche's long term existence, independence, etc. ...

I agree. We do not have all the details. The VAG plan certainly was a bold move but behind it was the survival of PAG under the increasingly weighty governmental regulatory process. Ferrari and Lambo are safe under parent cos, PAG is not. The EU and DC politicians/bureaucrats do not care for sports cars - as far as they are concerned they could very well vanish. Those politicians/bureaucrats are world travelers in cushy private jets and huge Suburbans at taxpayers expense and that's all they care, all the while legislating against the masses laws they consider themselves insulated of.

--

_________________________________________________________

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6, 996 C4.

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May 28, 2009 7:38:40 PM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: Joost

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Joost:

Why don't they just sell their volkswagen shares? That should provide them with some cash...

from another forum

"..From what i've heard (from a good source) it seems Porsche can't afford to close out the call options they have on VW shares. if they do exercise the right and sell the shares on they are inline to make up to 17.5bln Euro profit.."

--
Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

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May 30, 2009 5:40:58 PM

C2Nerves: Junior; Loc: Beirut, Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 131, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2006; Reply to: andrea

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

i think PAG's multi billion euro investment on the new panamera is yielding much less than the budgeted income. The global recession in addition to the panamera design flaws is whats's taking the company through troubled times. Panamera;

a-The shape of the back end has low marks in most reviews. If they have given the panamera its own character rather than trying to folow the carrera silhouette, they may have had a better outcome. b-the back seat console defeats the purpose of it being a family car. It was supposed to be a 5 seater sports sedan!. these issues make a difference in today's competitive market.

In addition, their aquisition of VW shares left porsche with no financial strength to handle their skewed budget.

--

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MY07 C2S Meteor Grey (Sold)

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May 30, 2009 7:24:05 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: C2Nerves

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Talking of Panamera does anyone have information on orders so far? Production of customer cars is due to start soon.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

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Jun 3, 2009 3:12:59 AM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: reginos

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Well, its pretty obviously a plan for VW to take over Porsche by driving them out of cash. Its a pretty interesting take over business strategy - Very German.

--

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Jun 3, 2009 5:29:27 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: william

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

See latest here

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Jun 3, 2009 10:03:29 AM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Spyderidol:

See latest here

You do realize that's just a link back to the first page of this thread?

--

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Jun 3, 2009 11:08:06 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Sorry!

I meant here

Please go to two last threads.

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Jun 3, 2009 11:10:34 AM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

You mean this link: http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20103182/Re_REPORT_Porsche_facing_dire_times/index.html#p20103182

FYI : each and every specific post has a on it, right click this and do 'copy link location', then paste link into your new post.
--

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Jun 3, 2009 11:12:23 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

No, I mean:

Porsche op. profit seen at 700-800 mln eur -paper

Fri May 29, 2009 12:41pm EDT

FRANKFURT, May 29 (Reuters) - Porsche (PSHG_p.DE) will sell around 80,000 cars in the current fiscal year and expects to post a full-year operating profit of between 700 million euros ($979.5 million) and 800 million, a state politician told a German newspaper.

Claus Schmiedel, a member of parliament in Porsche's home state Baden-Wuerttemberg, told Stuttgarter Nachrichten in an interview to be published on Saturday he had spoken to Porsche's finance chief and taken a look at the carmaker's books.

"On an operating level Porsche does not have a problem -- unlike other producers," Schmiedel said, adding the company will achieve an operating margin of 12 percent.

In the following year Porsche aims to sell more than 100,000 cars and again make a profit of more than 1 billion euros, Schmiedel said.

Porsche, whose fiscal year ends July 31, declined to comment.

Porsche confirmed on Monday it got a 700 million euro loan from its Volkswagen AG (VOWG.DE) unit but insisted it could cope with its debt woes. [ID:nL0107196]

Labouring under a 9 billion euro load of debt it had accumulated by the end of January, Porsche was forced to abandon a complete takeover of the Wolfsburg-based carmaker. (Reporting by Nicola Leske; Editing by David Holmes)

and ....

Porsche SE: Integrated car manufacturing group will profit all Reaction to the Resolution of the European Group Works Council at Volkswagen AG

Stuttgart. The European Group Works Council of Volkswagen AG, Wolfsburg, has adopted a Resolution, demanding top priority for the liquidity situation in the Volkswagen group and a detailing of the situation at Porsche.

In a letter to the VW Group Works Council the Board of Management of Porsche Automobil Holding SE has reacted to this by stating:

"We understand the concern of the European Group Works Council of VW in the light of a number of press reports without a basis in recent weeks. As a matter of course the forming of an integrated car manufacturing group implies the mutual assessment of both companies involved by accounting firms. The results have to be checked and approved by the boards of both companies - Board of Management as well as Supervisory Board.

We are convinced that the targeted integrated car manufacturing group is the best industrial solution for all stakeholders involved. That is the case for the companies as well as for the respective workforce. Thus we do not want to put anybody under time pressure.

The employees of Porsche without any doubt are backing the Management of Porsche SE as they have shown and demonstrated in several works meetings. The Porsche Group Works Council has in its latest meeting on Friday May 29 unanimously confirmed this. Porsche as a company has an equity ratio of
45 percent and - in the face of the actual economic crisis - still achieves double digit operating margins even if due to the ongoing tensions in the capital markets as well as in the credit markets the closing of a credit line of Euro
12.5 billion - of which more than Euro ten billion are already secured - is delayed. We do work on this.

The Board of Management at Porsche SE knows its responsibility for the VW group and the VW employees. We will meet this responsibility.

Let us now jointly carve this route to the benefit of all stakeholders."

K-GO

6/1/2009

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Jun 3, 2009 11:13:38 AM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Yup - that's the link I posted.

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Jun 3, 2009 11:15:13 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Sorry ...that is why you're a "Master" and I'm only an "Expert"

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Jun 3, 2009 11:16:47 AM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

--

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Jun 3, 2009 7:10:43 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Could someone from the financial sector confirm this: So now Porsche owes 9 billion, assuming interest of 5% (what's the interest rate for these huge corporate loans?), that means, 450 milliion interest out of pocket every year?

So 2/3 of annual operating profit goes to pay interest? Is there a silver lining here that I am not seeing? What if profit drops?

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

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Jun 3, 2009 7:35:55 PM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: cannga

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Remember that the loan is to Porsche SE.

The profit report is for Porsche AG.

The idea was that VAG profits would be incorporated into the Porsche SE balance sheet (and part of them will be)

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Jun 3, 2009 7:52:23 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Spyderidol:

Remember that the loan is to Porsche SE.

The profit report is for Porsche AG.

The idea was that VAG profits would be incorporated into the Porsche SE balance sheet (and part of them will be)

Yes, but for Porsche SE to have access to any VW surpluses, in other words to draw cash from the VW tills, a "domination" status is required with 75% shareholding. But even then the state of Niedersachsen could present obstacles through the Lex VW.

It was a huge gamble the whole affair!

They are asking the German government for a loan now

http://www.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSTRE5524XK20090603

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

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Jun 4, 2009 6:01:07 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: reginos

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Yes, that is correct, and ofcourse the problem is one of cash.

It was a gamble that obviously did not pay off.

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Jun 4, 2009 9:09:58 PM

Adam2S: Senior; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 19, 2007; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

article on pistonheads today :

www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=20025

Thursday 4th June

PORSCHE ASKS FOR 1.75BN EURO LOAN

Sports car maker goes cap-in-hand to state-owned German bank

Porsche's chase of VW has left big debts

Porsche, which is struggling to refinance the huge debts it has built up as part of its takeover attempt of VW, has asked for a 1.75 billion euro (£1.5bn) loan from state-owned German bank KfW.

Porsche failed to raise the full 12.5 billion euros of credit it needed to refinance its debts back in March, managing to secure just 10 billion euros.

Since then Porsche has been undertaking the big-business equivalent of searching looking down the back of the sofa for loose change. So far it has managed to find 700 million euros from VW, and the 1.75 billion euros from KfW will make up the bulk of the rest of the shortfall.

Don't think that Porsche is pushing for a GM or Chrysler-style government handout, however; Porsche says it intends to repay the loan at commercial interest rates.

The application is politically sensitive, as the loan money would come from a 40 billion euro KfW fund earmarked for corporate financing as part of the German government's economic stimulus programme - and that has a 300 million euro limit.

Porsche's costly takeover attempt of VW has now stalled and, though it owns 51 per cent of VW, a merger is now more likely than a takeover.

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Jun 4, 2009 11:12:19 PM

GT3Dominic: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 32, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: Adam2S

Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

column a to column b - the families wil have dinner, work out a plan with lower saxony and merge on - porsche CEO has to fold his ego into his pocket or move on

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Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Porsche Short $4.4b For Continued Operations, Close To Bankruptcy?

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Re: Porsche, bankrupt? Tell me it ain't true!

Porsche op. profit seen at 700-800 mln eur -paper

Porsche SE: Integrated car manufacturing group will profit all Reaction to the Resolution of the European Group Works Council at Volkswagen AG

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PORSCHE ASKS FOR 1.75BN EURO LOAN

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