Crown

Carlos, please answer my question regarding Horst.

Orabidoo:

 

Walter and Carlos. Do really think that HvS takes 100% out of the car? Have you talked to him? Do you know the procedure when he tests the "Supertest" cars on the Ring? How many laps do you think he drives before he sets the "Sport Auto lap time"?

HvS is doing maximally 3 laps. Fastest lap is usually second lap(after first lap out of the box). Is he getting 100% out of the car? Hmm... According to my Motorpresse friend NO. BUT, he gets enough for setting the standard, that is what Supertest is all about.

Question for you now-do you belive that Tochio Suzuki can really achieve 7.29min in the same GT-R that HvS drove? My opinion? Chances are in best case scenario below 40%...

KresoF1 - thanks, I knew the testing process already, but I think it was time to clarify that for others. Regarding Suzuki's 7:29 vs HvS 7:38 - I would say the opposite, ie respect to HvS to get 98% (or 97,4% if 7.26) out of the car from basically 3 or so laps on the Nordschleife with the car.

Let's assume (which is quite reasonable) that only Suzuki gets 100% out of the car. During a perfect day at the Ring - no one would be faster than Suzuki. Let's also assume that the conditions when Suzuki drove 7.26 were close to perfect. Then, again, I would say that for HvS to get 97.4% out of the car in a few laps and probably not as good conditions as Suzuki is extremely respectable.

Which means, the other way around, that I am strongly convinced that Suzuki's time is correct. KresoF1 - HvS is an extremely fast driver, and with the testing procedure he's very consistent. You probably know what HvS say - he is not after extracting 100% of the car. He just want to set a fast time. Not the fastest time that is possible with the car.

Somehow I almost agree with you. Just, IMHO nobody except Tochio Suzuki can achieve 7.29min.

Back to GT-R... It is excellent car for the money. NO doubt about it. I personally do not like the way it looks and I am not beliver in its long term ownership reliability.

I drove one(JDM Grey import) about three weeks ago. It is very fast car. BUT, it did not deliver any emotional content at all. My R8 4.2 FSI manual have character in spades in comparison. Of course, GT-R is faster. More rewarding to drive? Again IMHO NO.

baron:

I have first hand experience with the GTR and other exotics such as CGT, Gallardo SL, 599GTB, etc, and have hundreds if not thousands of miles of each driven on back road and track, and back to back at times.

 

 

 

Welcome to Renntam  It is great to have some GTR owner/driver here 

How would you compare the 599GTB (as I know the car as an owner) and GTR based on the following categories:

- feel of steering

- feel of suspension (body roll, lateral body movements, ride comfort)

- turn-in / understeer in slower bends

- turn-in / understeer in faster bends

- stability in fast bends

- speed of gear shifts

- wear of brakes if used aggressively (I assume you have CCB on the 599GTB as well?)

- wear of tires on the track

KresoF1:

Somehow I almost agree with you. Just, IMHO nobody except Tochio Suzuki can achieve 7.29min.

I agree with you. And as you probably know - some days the Ring is faster than other days. That is why Suzuki's time is correct. Nissan has not cheated. The car was a bone stock car. End of discussion.

Whether the time is repeatable or not by somebody else some other day is not interesting. The interesting part is that Nissan did not cheat. Something that Porsche accused them to do. And some thousands of internet forum writers that have no idea about neither the car nor absolutly not the Ring.

Personally, I don't care if the car is boring or ugly of if it's a Nissan. I just care about trying to enlight people about the reason of Suzuki lapping 7.26.

As I said earlier - HvS is not fastest in any car. But on average he is the fastest in all cars, and the beauty of the Sport Auto test is its consistency.

Truth is that the Nissan GT-R is capable of 7.26. But I doubt that anyone will ever repeat it. And it doesn't matter. Suzuki has done it once, and that's all I care about.

KresoF1:

Somehow I almost agree with you. Just, IMHO nobody except Tochio Suzuki can achieve 7.29min.

Back to GT-R... It is excellent car for the money. NO doubt about it. I personally do not like the way it looks and I am not beliver in its long term ownership reliability.

I drove one(JDM Grey import) about three weeks ago. It is very fast car. BUT, it did not deliver any emotional content at all. My R8 4.2 FSI manual have character in spades in comparison. Of course, GT-R is faster. More rewarding to drive? Again IMHO NO.

 

The GTR is a fabulous performance car for the money. But the bottom line is would you buy one? Though I initially tried (without viewing it), I would not now buy one. After seeing a couple on the street, the car looked to me very ordinary. Also, the subsequent reliability issues made it clear to me that the car is not ready for prime time. However, I suspect with improvements on each new model, they will catch up very fast.

I

HvS is doing maximally 3 laps. Fastest lap is usually second lap(after first lap out of the box).

thats not exactly true. The mentioned 3 laps are just for initial benchmarking. He drives the car beforehand on public roads and on the ring aswell (auround 3 laps) for getting used to the car.

Plus he drives several laps in Hockenheim.

All in all enough for an experienced driver to push a car to its limits. There may be improvments but not 10 seconds or more.

@all who are sure that this car is capable of doing a 7:26 on the ring (STOCK):

how do you know? Nissan was caught cheating before and the japanese are well known for their, well lets say 'patriotic way of comparing cars'.
In a few months Nissan is probably claiming that they got under 7:15 -the record of the edo porsche and you would probably believe it. But this car is a race-car and the situation would become more ridiculous that it is already.

GTR vs 599GTB:

tabletop:

HvS is doing maximally 3 laps. Fastest lap is usually second lap(after first lap out of the box).

 

thats not exactly true. The mentioned 3 laps are just for initial benchmarking. He drives the car beforehand on public roads and on the ring aswell (auround 3 laps) for getting used to the car.

Plus he drives several laps in Hockenheim.

All in all enough for an experienced driver to push a car to its limits. There may be improvments but not 10 seconds or more.

HvS is doing maximally 3 fast laps if you did not understand it right. You correction was not needed... And I had a chance to meet HvS in person...

tabletop:

There may be improvments but not 10 seconds or more.

And by saying so ju implicitly accuse Porsche and Walter Röhrl for lying about the lap time for the 997 Turbo. In what way do you think Porsche cheated the lap time for 997 Turbo? 

Personally, I don't think Porsche was cheating or lying. Walter was simply faster than HvS.

HvS is doing maximally 3 fast laps if you did not understand it right. You correction was not needed... And I had a chance to meet HvS in person...

thats fine but you don't have to meet him in person to get that info - just read the tests from Sport Auto. I think he explained the procedure exactly in the test of the scuderia. If they got it on their site I will search it...

Orabidoo:

tabletop:

There may be improvments but not 10 seconds or more.

And by saying so ju implicitly accuse Porsche and Walter Röhrl for lying about the lap time for the 997 Turbo. In what way do you think Porsche cheated the lap time for 997 Turbo? 

Personally, I don't think Porsche was cheating or lying. Walter was simply faster than HvS.

as far as I know röhrl was not the driver of the 7:38 time and this time is quite optimistic. The fastest turbo time that I know is from motortrend-magazine in the low 40's

KresoF1:

Orabidoo:

 

Walter and Carlos. Do really think that HvS takes 100% out of the car? Have you talked to him? Do you know the procedure when he tests the "Supertest" cars on the Ring? How many laps do you think he drives before he sets the "Sport Auto lap time"?

HvS is doing maximally 3 laps. Fastest lap is usually second lap(after first lap out of the box). Is he getting 100% out of the car? Hmm... According to my Motorpresse friend NO. BUT, he gets enough for setting the standard, that is what Supertest is all about.

Question for you now-do you belive that Tochio Suzuki can really achieve 7.29min in the same GT-R that HvS drove? My opinion? Chances are in best case scenario below 40%...

Kreso,
 

If we rephrase your question and ask it this way:

Do you think that after spending hundreds of lapsbehind the wheel with the right suspansion setup which would be tweaked according to the track characteristics after so much track data, 9 sec. gain is possible? 

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

pride355, I can answer your question. Simply read my posts.

Orabidoo:

KresoF1:

Somehow I almost agree with you. Just, IMHO nobody except Tochio Suzuki can achieve 7.29min.

I agree with you. And as you probably know - some days the Ring is faster than other days. That is why Suzuki's time is correct. Nissan has not cheated. The car was a bone stock car. End of discussion.

 

I am afraid that most here have a different oppinion. I don't think that 7.29 or even 7.26 can be achieved with a stock (customer car). I also don't believe that the 997TT can achieve the 7.40+x which Porsche says.

I believe in what is verified by independant sources. The rest is marketing BS 

nberry:

KresoF1:

Somehow I almost agree with you. Just, IMHO nobody except Tochio Suzuki can achieve 7.29min.

Back to GT-R... It is excellent car for the money. NO doubt about it. I personally do not like the way it looks and I am not beliver in its long term ownership reliability.

I drove one(JDM Grey import) about three weeks ago. It is very fast car. BUT, it did not deliver any emotional content at all. My R8 4.2 FSI manual have character in spades in comparison. Of course, GT-R is faster. More rewarding to drive? Again IMHO NO.

 

 

The GTR is a fabulous performance car for the money. But the bottom line is would you buy one? Though I initially tried (without viewing it), I would not now buy one. After seeing a couple on the street, the car looked to me very ordinary. Also, the subsequent reliability issues made it clear to me that the car is not ready for prime time. However, I suspect with improvements on each new model, they will catch up very fast.

I

The GTR is only an option if you cannot afford a GT2 or GT3 or need the rear seats...

MKSGR:

I believe in what is verified by independant sources. The rest is marketing BS 

It is interesting that you think that HvS is the fastest guy in the world in the Nissan GT-R. After a few laps on a (probably) not ideal day. I can ask you the same question I've asked so many times. Have you talked to HvS and asked him if he gets 100% out of the car and track? Ask him if another day at the Ring the conditions would have been better.

I can see that you're german - talk to HvS and ask him if it's possible that he only got 98% out of the car and track combination.

baron:

GTR vs 599GTB:

 

I would say the GTR has better steering feel than the 599.  In terms of body movements, the GTR is a lot better in this regard.  The GTR is much more stiffly sprung, but 599 is more comfortable.  But I don't feel that the GTB's softer nature compromises its track performance very much since there is still tons of grip. 

 

You also do feel that the front-mid nature of the 599 has an advantage of reduced understeer than the GTR.  On backroads, I feel much better control with the GTR over the 599, but I think it is just a different driving style that gets getting used too.  One thing I don't like about the 599 is that I sit quite high, like sedan, and you feel the center of gravity working against you, although this is probably not the case in reality.

 

Turn is a more precise in the GTR. I think the super stiff sideways of the RFT tires and better steering give an advantage. The front of the 599 is bit long to make aggressive placement difficult on tight roads. High speed cornering are very capable in both cars, although the best I think in this regard is the Murcielago. But the GTR’s suspension is quite stiff, so bumps in the road makes the car rebound affective stability. But since the 599 is softer, there were instances in which the car bottomed out on crest and dips, so you can’t have it all.

 

Regarding wear, the 599 (and GTR) are also quite new to get anything relaced at that point.  I've had the GTR for several track sessions, and quite a few drives on backroads, the there hasn't been much tirewear. I have the harder Bridgestone compound.

 

Yes, the 599 has the CCB brakes (08 model).  In terms of brake feel, 599 is better, although both cars stops quite effectively.  Another thing I don't like about the GTR as much is that brake feel is bit mushy, but not a big deal.

 

Engine concept are different in both cars. 599 revs faster at high revs and with better throttle response being NA. GTR is still very responsive and torquey at low revs. From a dig the GTR has brutal but drama free acceleration.  599 is much faster above 120.

 

The DCT gearbox of the GTR is better than the F1 in the 599. Both shifts very fast, although maybe faster in the GTR (we’re talking about milli seconds here) In the 599 on 1/2 to 3/4 throttle, for each gear shift you feel some sideways momentum that could affect the balance of the car.  Somehow this is better at full throttle.  In the GTR each shift is seamless, there are no other tendencies of other momentum forces. It is impressive if you do a launch control on the GTR in auto, it just goes to like 100 in no time like a freight train.

 

Exhaust sound is important too. Both cars are quite subdued. The GTR sounds interesting. The 599 has the sporty tone you expect at high revs. Both cars need aftermarket exhaust, IMO. My dealer said no for the 599, so have to wait till warranty is up. For the GTR, dealer has no problems and exhaust is on order. 

Thanks for the time to write this down. Very interesting read 

Recent AutoZeitung test highlighted that the GTR is slower than the GT3 Mk2 on tighter tracks (and quicker in faster sections - primarily due to the engine power). Still, given your comparison notes above I wonder how the GTR can get even close to the GT3. If the GTR tends to show more understeer/feel more heavy in tight bends than the 599 (which, I think,  has a massive problem in this category...) I would have thought that the gap between GT3 and GTR should be even larger than that described/tested by AutoZeitung 

Orabidoo:

tabletop:

There may be improvments but not 10 seconds or more.

And by saying so ju implicitly accuse Porsche and Walter Röhrl for lying about the lap time for the 997 Turbo. In what way do you think Porsche cheated the lap time for 997 Turbo? 

Personally, I don't think Porsche was cheating or lying. Walter was simply faster than HvS.

You guys are a bit gullible. There is one certain fact in life: if big money is involved (like when a new car is launched) you can trust everybody - to do whatever required to make this car a success.

Thinking that Nissan or Porsche tell the truth all the time is extremely naive 

Orabidoo:

MKSGR:

I believe in what is verified by independant sources. The rest is marketing BS 

It is interesting that you think that HvS is the fastest guy in the world in the Nissan GT-R. After a few laps on a (probably) not ideal day. I can ask you the same question I've asked so many times. Have you talked to HvS and asked him if he gets 100% out of the car and track? Ask him if another day at the Ring the conditions would have been better.

I can see that you're german - talk to HvS and ask him if it's possible that he only got 98% out of the car and track combination.

I don't think that HvS is the fastest guy in the world - neither in the Nissan nor in the GT2 or GT3.

I know enough of the world to tell that Nissan has extreme economic incentives to cheat a bit to make a new car look nice and to generate lots of publicity in the Internet. Same applies to other OEMs as well, of course.

That's why I say it very clearly: believing in Nissan's lap times is naive 

I don't think that HvS is the fastest guy in the world - neither in the Nissan nor in the GT2 or GT3.

Ok. So it's possible to drive it faster than 7.38? Then two questions. (1) How much would you think the conditions on the Ring influence the lap time. Ie, assume perfect (for the GT-R) conditions? (2) How much do you think a perfect driver can influence the lap time?

For me, I'm totally convinced that the sum of the above parts can be 9 (or 12) sec faster than HvS.

Btw, I assume that you have a lot of experince from the Ring. Because that is of crucial importance to understand the lap times and how much confidence in the car and conditions on the Ring can influence the lap times.

You probably agree that the chances to be 12s quicker with suspension mods, more boost pressure, special tires are much higher (close to 100% actually) than to be lucky enough to have perfect track conditions which make the car faster by 12s 

It is that simple logic... If a man lies dead on the street with a severe head injury you could - of course - assume that an asteroid came down and killed him. The likely assumption, however, would be that somebody hit him on his head. You see my point 

MKSGR:

You probably agree that the chances to be 12s quicker with suspension mods, more boost pressure, special tires are much higher (close to 100% actually) than to be lucky enough to have perfect track conditions which make the car faster by 12s 

Of course I agree. But it is not necessary. All you need is a driver that is as least as good as HvS, but is more confident with the car, knows the car the car better and has done a lot more laps with it. Add better conditions (which is probably not needed, but let's say it to try to convince you). Then 9-12 sec sounds very reasonable.
 

It really seems like you are not familiar with the Ring - but I hope that is not true since you're german. 

And..ask HvS about the 98% next time you see him.

Orabidoo:

MKSGR:

You probably agree that the chances to be 12s quicker with suspension mods, more boost pressure, special tires are much higher (close to 100% actually) than to be lucky enough to have perfect track conditions which make the car faster by 12s 

Of course I agree. But it is not necessary. All you need is a driver that is as least as good as HvS, but is more confident with the car, knows the car the car better and has done a lot more laps with it. Add better conditions (which is probably not needed, but let's say it to try to convince you). Then 9-12 sec sounds very reasonable.
 

It really seems like you are not familiar with the Ring - but I hope that is not true since you're german. 

And..ask HvS about the 98% next time you see him.

No excuses please 

Your argument is not very good. I don't know any professional NBR-NS pilot who would confirm that track conditions within the norm (we are talking of mild differences - not about rain, damp parts of the track etc.) will make up for a difference of 12s between two experienced and skilled drivers. Please don't forget that HvS is a NS pro - he will notice and mention in the test if the track conditions were out of the norm.

And the logic that Suzuki is just 12s faster in the same car in comparable track conditions due to his superb driving skills...  You know, sounds a bit too Japanese 

Orabidoo:

MKSGR:

You probably agree that the chances to be 12s quicker with suspension mods, more boost pressure, special tires are much higher (close to 100% actually) than to be lucky enough to have perfect track conditions which make the car faster by 12s 

 

And..ask HvS about the 98% next time you see him.

BTW, just to put this into perspective: 2% in HHR are approx. 1.5s... 

btw; here's röhrl in the new GT3 on the ring. For anyone who doubt that he can drive a car to its limits anymore:

MKSGR:

And the logic that Suzuki is just 12s faster in the same car in comparable track conditions due to his superb driving skills...  You know, sounds a bit too Japanese 

Speaking of the Japanese...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4CdizEYwyw

The guy was 4 seconds faster than von Saurma in the 993 Turbo.

 Horst von Saurma-Jeltsch (born 28 August, 1954 in Stuttgart, Germany)

There are few professional racers who have continued to win or even to race of this age. Older drivers loose their competitive edge and have too much interest in self preservation

Obviously HvS is not the fastest  driver in the world and his times can be beaten by younger more committed drivers who are being paid to extract 100%.

--

AUM:

 Horst von Saurma-Jeltsch (born 28 August, 1954 in Stuttgart, Germany)

There are few professional racers who have continued to win or even to race of this age. Older drivers loose their competitive edge and have too much interest in self preservation

Obviously HvS is not the fastest  driver in the world and his times can be beaten by younger more committed drivers who are being paid to extract 100%.

--

That's for sure. The question is whether a 12s gap is plausible. It would not make sense to argue that no driver can be quicker than HvS - of course there are faster drivers than him...