Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne - Page1

Apr 2, 2009 4:44:05 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Shakal

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

That transcript proves to me that McLaren not only played it by the book but were also trying their utmost to stay within the letter and spirit of the rules.

From the obvious tone of the language used, McLaren have become so fearful of the FIA from past racing incidents where the FIA has imposed drastic penalties on this team while letting other teams get away with much worse infringements. This is a team that is literally quaking with fear that they will get penalised yet again by the FIA for the slightest issue. This is what the FIA has reduced McLaren to.

They earned 4th place and even that was taken away from them. Shame on the FIA.

I am no McLaren or Hamilton fan. Just a fan of F1.

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Apr 2, 2009 5:38:28 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

This F1 circus is a friggin travesty.

Who in their right mind can disqualify a driver and a team for an incident like that? It is beyond comprehension.

It was just as silly that they penalized Trulli in the first place since the SC period was a mess, but at least that made just a little bit of sense.

Speaking of SC: Seems to me the FIA needs to ban the SC for that first SC episode. D´oh!

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Apr 2, 2009 6:35:35 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

IMO FIA should be headed and ran by ex-drivers and personalities who were active in motorsport. People who did racing at high level and understand the sport and all that it entails.

People like Lauda, Jackie Steward, Schumacher, Prost etc. would have been ideal. It happens in other sports why not in motorsport?

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Apr 2, 2009 7:41:45 PM

Thoma: Veteran; Loc: Vancouver , Canada; Posts: 855, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 5, 2005; Reply to: reginos

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6023406.ece

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Apr 2, 2009 8:37:51 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Thoma

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

FIA's Formula =make a lot of convoluted rules and let the lawyers run the sport and decide the results. Eventually F1 can do without real cars and become a board game! Smiley

I hope audiences fall eventually, if we have lots of penalties and disqualifications in every race and this leads into a serious rethink and most of all fit and proper persons are put in charge of the "sport".

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Apr 2, 2009 8:44:07 PM

Eunice: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Karlsruhe , Germany; Posts: 6155, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2008; Reply to: reginos

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

If I remember correct there was a lot of talk about an alternative F1 several years ago, that day FIA accepted more influence by the teams and they stayed.

I love F1, it's by far the most entertaining series IMO, but it should be run by the teams.

Take DTM for example, it is run by Audi and Mercedes, before every season they sit on a table and agree on the rules.

In a bigger circus like F1 it has to be a bit more complicated, but hey, we can run entire countries based on democracy, why not F1?

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Apr 2, 2009 8:45:34 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: reginos

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

reginos:

... a lot of convoluted rules and ... the lawyers run the sport and decide the results...

Well said Smiley I'm absolutely fed up with the final results being decided by stewards, lawyers, the FIA, appeals to the FIA etc etc... races need to be decided on the track with penalties given on the track during the race itself.

Can you guys remember when was the last time that the actual race order of ALL the finishers actually stayed unchanged? This has become a sad joke. Smiley Smiley

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Apr 2, 2009 9:12:56 PM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

It’s clear from the McLaren and Toyota radio transcripts that both teams sought clarification during the race from the FIA Formula One Race Director.

Charlie Whiting is the FIA’s Formula One Race Director and head of the F1 Technical Department, in which capacities he generally manages the logistics of each F1 Grand Prix, inspects cars before each race, enforces FIA rules, and controls the lights which start each race.

The FIA Formula One Race Director must take responsibility for providing timely feedback to teams requesting clarification during a race to avoid ambiguous results.

Clearly the FIA were aware of the incident at the time and had access to both the McLaren and Toyota team radios during and after the race. If the FIA race stewards had not been provided copies of the radio transcripts prior to making a decision, that oversight is clearly the responsibility of the FIA.

This latest FIAsco demonstrates a gross mismanagement of the Formula 1 sport by the governing body.

The FIA should be able to deal with such ambiguities during an event, but they have again demonstrated that the FIA is not fit for purpose...

Smiley

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Apr 2, 2009 9:48:09 PM

moto: Senior; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 608, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 8, 2005; Reply to: Boxster Coupe GTS

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

What we don't know is what Lewis said to the stewards after the race.

I would have thought the most reasonable solution would be for Trulli to retain 3rd place and Hamilton to retain 4th?

I just feel that FIA always hand McLaren the maximum penalty available!?

Seriously though, us fans don't really have enough influence in all this at all have we?

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Apr 2, 2009 10:10:16 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Boxster Coupe GTS

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Clearly the FIA were aware of the incident at the time and had access to both the McLaren and Toyota team radios during and after the race. If the FIA race stewards had not been provided copies of the radio transcripts prior to making a decision, that oversight is clearly the responsibility of the FIA.

This latest FIAsco demonstrates a gross mismanagement of the Formula 1 sport by the governing body.

The FIA should be able to deal with such ambiguities during an event, but they have again demonstrated that the FIA is not fit for purpose...

+1 Smiley

--
fritz

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Apr 2, 2009 10:15:35 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: moto

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

moto:

Seriously though, us fans don't really have enough influence in all this at all have we?

My TV remote control has an "On/Off" button - the ultimate veto for a business like F1 which depends on viewer numbers for its success.

Any more crap like this and I will be using what little influence I have.

--
fritz

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Apr 2, 2009 10:19:27 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Eunice

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Eunice:

I think that's really hard punishment, but then again, McLaren is not innocent, they did some fair amount of cheating in the past.

Only if you look upon the phrase "there is no smoke without fire" as adequate proof of guilt. Smiley

--
fritz

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Apr 2, 2009 10:26:30 PM

Eunice: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Karlsruhe , Germany; Posts: 6155, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2008; Reply to: fritz

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

fritz:

Eunice:

I think that's really hard punishment, but then again, McLaren is not innocent, they did some fair amount of cheating in the past.

Only if you look upon the phrase "there is no smoke without fire" as adequate proof of guilt.

I wasn't referring to the last race, I can't see what they did wrong this time.

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Apr 2, 2009 11:31:07 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Eunice

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Soon FIA will punish Hamilton for being British, or Black, or being a man, or wearing pants, or driving an F1 car.

Really feel bad for Hamilton driving a MacLaren, if he's in a Ferrari, there would be no punishment what so ever for ANYTHING he does.

FIA knew MacLaren is faster than Ferrari this year, and if they do not do a thing to stop/slow MacLaren down, Ferrari would be so out of it no one would watch F1. Too bad MacLaren is not THE car to beat this year, because FIA might not looks as stupid as they are now.

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Apr 3, 2009 12:23:14 AM

Gladstone: Expert; Loc: Kansas City, MO , United States; Posts: 1813, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 27, 2008; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Is everyone so sure the FIA is in favor of Ferrari, or does Brawn have something on Mosley and Eccelstone??? (Where Brawn goes, so do the favors of the FIA) Smiley

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Apr 3, 2009 7:23:28 AM

Shakal: Expert; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 1375, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2006; Reply to: Gladstone

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Also FIA said that McLaren can be disqualified from a championship this year. I think they want to make sure that McLaren won't appeal.

And this is second time McLaren was in truble because of Charlie Whiting . Last year in SPA he said two times that Hamilton move on Raikkonen is correct, later Hamilton lost points. This time for 2 minutes he couldn't answer McLaren if Hamilton can finnish on P3 or P4, so at the end of the race, they still didn't get answer from Charlie Whiting.

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Apr 3, 2009 9:10:56 AM

Misha011: Veteran; Loc: Dubai , United Arab Emirates; Posts: 1234, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 28, 2007; Reply to: Shakal

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

They lied and got cought ( again ) . McLaren can't do anything honestly !!

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Apr 3, 2009 9:16:39 AM

Eunice: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Karlsruhe , Germany; Posts: 6155, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2008; Reply to: Misha011

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Misha011:
They lied and got cought ( again ) . McLaren can't do anything honestly !!

That's what they say, but when did the lie and what did they tell?

The incident on the track can't be the reason for the disqualification IMO.

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Apr 3, 2009 9:32:35 AM

blueflame: Expert; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 1700, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 28, 2005; Reply to: Eunice

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Eunice:

Misha011:
They lied and got cought ( again ) . McLaren can't do anything honestly !!

That's what they say, but when did the lie and what did they tell?

The incident on the track can't be the reason for the disqualification IMO.

The important case was after the race:

http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/motorsport/2009/04/03/lewis-hamilton/luegen-weltmeister-von-mclaren-mercedes.html

Blueflame Smiley

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Apr 3, 2009 10:02:10 AM

Eunice: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Karlsruhe , Germany; Posts: 6155, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2008; Reply to: blueflame

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Thanks blueflame, it's a hard punishment nonetheless.

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Apr 3, 2009 10:18:21 AM

blueflame: Expert; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 1700, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 28, 2005; Reply to: Eunice

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

More news:

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/formel1/0,1518,617189,00.html

McLaren´s team manager Dave Ryan ist suspended.

Blueflame

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Apr 3, 2009 10:34:29 AM

Eunice: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Karlsruhe , Germany; Posts: 6155, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2008; Reply to: blueflame

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

So Ryan is responsible for Hamilton lying?

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Apr 3, 2009 11:39:40 AM

gangajas: Senior; Loc: Spain , Spain; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 8, 2004; Reply to: Eunice

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Eunice:

So Ryan is responsible for Hamilton lying?

Isn't Hamilton a grown man? It's easier to suspend a member of the staff than your star driver, isn't it?

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Apr 3, 2009 11:50:05 AM

Misha011: Veteran; Loc: Dubai , United Arab Emirates; Posts: 1234, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 28, 2007; Reply to: Eunice

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

In my country , we say : "Fish is smelly from the head , but cleaned from the tail"

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Apr 3, 2009 1:35:54 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: Misha011

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Hamilton admits lying...

Looks like you guys were too quick defending him.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090403145018.shtml

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Apr 3, 2009 1:37:54 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Guys - I think the crucial difference is what happened on the track and what McLaren told the stewards afterwards.

On the track, McLaren played it 100% by the book. In fact, while LH was discussing whether the rules required him to let Jarno Trulli re-pass or not, Jarno took the position back anyway!

I completely stand by what I wrote above - i.e. about how McLaren has become such a fearful team that they are literally trembling with fear that they will get penalised for the most tiny issue.

The issue here is about the post-race stewards' meeting. LH and David Ryan gave the stewards the impression that the team had not ordered LH to let Jarno re-pass. However, radio transcripts show that McLaren and LH were discussing this and afterwards, LH told a TV channel that the team had ordered him to let Jarno re-pass. It is not clear that McLaren actually did give the order - it looks more like they were just talking about whether it was necessary.

This gave the impression that LH had not been completely upfront with the stewards about what discussions took place.

It looks to me like this was a relatively minor discrepancy and the FIA has clobbered McLaren taking away all of LH's points - even for 4th place with a further threat of an all-season disqualification!

Disqualification for the whole of 2009 would be extremely, extremely harsh. It is bad enough that, by implication, LH is being branded as a "liar".

His mind is clearly affected - he even had a pit lane speeding fine today in Friday Practice in Sepang. Not 100% mentally focussed - for obvious and understandable reasons.

The FIA seems determined to bash McLaren any chance it can get. It is IMHO Max Mosley getting revenge on Ron Dennis. This is not sport - it is schoolboys fighting in the school playground.

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Apr 3, 2009 1:49:11 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

Minor discrapency?

Read the link above, LH feelings indicate it was quite a big lie...

The current sanction is perfectly adequate IMHO.

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Apr 3, 2009 1:59:02 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

It comes down to the facts of what LH said to the stewards. He is claiming not to be a "liar or a dishonest person":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7980593.stm

He is claiming that he was just following team orders...

It's clear from the transcript that LH and his team were still discussing the issue of letting Jarno re-pass. Whether they actually gave the order or not, I don't know.

If they did and LH told the stewards this wasn't the case, then LH deserves severe punishment.

If they did and LH was vague about it with the stewards, then LH deserves some minor punishment.

If they didn't actually give the order but were merely discussing it - and LH told the stewards that the team hadn't given the order, then that is not a lie.

Anyway - this whole situation has developed into a farce.

We are discussing in-car radio chats and stewards' enquiries like this was a court of law.

F1 isn't decided on the track anymore - it's decided by bureaucrats behind closed doors. Smiley

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Apr 3, 2009 2:16:33 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

I agree they should have decided on the spot, or right after the race.

But there has to be some sort of rule enforcement...

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Apr 3, 2009 2:23:54 PM

gangajas: Senior; Loc: Spain , Spain; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 8, 2004; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: 2009 Australian F1 Grand Prix from Melbourne

When Toyota/Trulli were punished they handled the situation like gentlemen, McLaren on the other hand...well, they handled the situation in a McLaren way (which is not good).

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