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Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
dhayek:
rossi... after owning my scuderia for 5 months, i am still soooo impreseed with the superfast 2, and i would soooo be happy if they carry it on on the 450, the gearbox is the best part of the scuderia! you so feel you are in a racing car, and thats the impression of each person that comes with me for a ride.. on the opposite, every dct i drove was a total disaster in terms of feeling! GTR, pdk porsche, dsg... all of the were simply sensation free FASTER AUTOMATIC GEARBOX .
i hope ferrari will be able to make on the 450 a dct that gives feeling and mechanical feel.. but i honestly doubt
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09 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
I believe every word you say, Dimitri. I drove the 430 and thought, the F1 is as good as it gets. Well, then I drove the 599. 
No doubt, that the F1 Superfast of the Scuderia is top-notch. It is nearly as fast as Formula 1, so I would say (again 
) it's the best you can achieve with the F1 gearbox.
But and this is a very important but for me, I don't trust in it's reliability. I've read just too many comments about gearbox failure in the Scuderia yet (Kreso knows what I'm talking about) and I really hope you won't be struck by such problems in the future.
For me it makes no sense to have Formula 1 technology in a road legal sportscar, if it comes only at the expense of Formula 1 maintenance costs. Moreover the first hints about the DCT in the California are very, very promising, seems as if Ferrari managed to mate the comfort of an automatic tranny with the rawness of the present F1. I'm very curious how it works in the California.
Anyway, I wait and see what it will be, F1 or DCT and then make my decision. Ferrari produces an awful lot of Scuderias, you can get them at MSRP or even with discount, so need to hurry. Still plenty of time to get one if I want.
All that reminds me a lot at the situation Modena - Challenge Stradale - F430. Ferrari got under pressure by Lamborghini's Gallardo, which was the better car than a Modena in every aspect. Their answer was the Challenge Stradele, but this was not really my type of car. So I decided to wait for the F430, which was the correct decision for sure. I guess it's just the same now, with the F430 - Scuderia - F450 and LP560.
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Back again!
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
Questions about PDK/DCT etc:
- to get 0ms shifts it has to predict the next gear correctly (i.e. shift up or down). How well does it do this? Perfectly, every time?
- if you shift by more than one gear it will take longer. How much longer and how big an issue is this in road/track use?
- why isn't dual clutch used in F1? Regulations or performance?
nick
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
nickt:
Questions about PDK/DCT etc:
- to get 0ms shifts it has to predict the next gear correctly (i.e. shift up or down). How well does it do this? Perfectly, every time?
- if you shift by more than one gear it will take longer. How much longer and how big an issue is this in road/track use?
- why isn't dual clutch used in F1? Regulations or performance?
nick
- DCT takes no time between upshifts because the next gear up is already engaged but the clutch just isn't "on". There's dual electronically controlled clutches in the tranmission - one is on, one is off. Think of the action more or less like a light switc or diverter valve - the power get shut off to one and put on the other, and the one that's off goes ahead and selects the next gear up.
The only lag is on downshifts since the gears have pre-selected UP (until you hit the final gear - the "off" clutch is already resting on the lower gear since there is no next gear higher for it to go to) it has to go through the standard synchro mesh and rev match routine - but then again, you really don't want to go banging down into lower gears like you would going up unless you like twisted up tranmissions and enjoy compression locking your engine. 
- If you're trying to bang out upshifts, you can only do it sequentially (no skip shifting like with manual), and although there's a little tiny fractional power delivery lag the shifts happen nearly as fast as you can pull the paddles or nudge the shifter.
- No use in F1 due to F1 regulations. No other reason other than this. DCT is proving itself to be the superior gearbox (weight penalty aside). I would say its only a matter of time before F1 lifts the ban.
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...the only thing stopping you, is you!
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
dhayek:
stefan, why should you care about reliability when you have 3 years warranty, and you can extend it as much as you want???? let it brake.. they will keep replacing..
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09 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
you wanna enjoy and drive your car or keep dropping it off at the dealership to be fixed.....
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Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
intouch1:
dhayek:
stefan, why should you care about reliability when you have 3 years warranty, and you can extend it as much as you want???? let it brake.. they will keep replacing..
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09 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
you wanna enjoy and drive your car or keep dropping it off at the dealership to be fixed.....
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Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.
if the gearbox issue is true, you will break one every day? every week? my guess would be , IIF the rumor of the gearbox is true, you will change it every two years?
i don't mind personally dropping off the car at the dealer for a day every two years to change the box. especially compared to the pleasure i get from that car .
i have drven my 430 for two years without any issue, i had before that 3 modena's and never had an issue with the gearbox.
i still don't believe the rumor... we heard of one case on a test car, otherwise.. nothing, and the scuderia has been in the market for more than a year now
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09 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
Rossi:
There's also a thread about gearbox failure after only 700km at Fchat.
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Back again!
...and I know personally about case were Scud Superfast died after 2800km. That person was(unfortunately) huge Ferrari fan and he waited until gearbox was replaced and sold the car(and lost some money).
BTW, even R8 is not without problems. I have my own issues... NO R8 V10 for me after recent experience...
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
I guess the transmission choice of the 450 will solve which is the faster gearbox conundrum. I still think that F1 is better for track driving. Recently BMW stated that the transmission on their F1 car changes gears in 0.002s!!! Given that there is no such thing as 0 up/down shift time (given the time needed for the processor to give the order, the electrical current to go through the wires, one clitch to engage and the other to dissengage etc) I think that this is as fast if not faster than what a DCT could do in Formula 1.
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FERRARI RULES!!!
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
SciFrog:
BTW, even R8 is not without problems. I have my own issues... NO R8 V10 for me after recent experience...
Mine needed new alternator. And there is very new and not nice at all Drive Shaft problem. In USA all R8s are called to service for techs inspecting the "freeplay" in the prop shaft. Not all R8's need the replacement. Just not something I like on expensive sportscar...
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
REALZEUS:
I guess the transmission choice of the 450 will solve which is the faster gearbox conundrum. I still think that F1 is better for track driving. Recently BMW stated that the transmission on their F1 car changes gears in 0.002s!!! Given that there is no such thing as 0 up/down shift time (given the time needed for the processor to give the order, the electrical current to go through the wires, one clitch to engage and the other to dissengage etc) I think that this is as fast if not faster than what a DCT could do in Formula 1.
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FERRARI RULES!!!
You are confusing the shift time with the shift latency. The shift time is measured (in graphs I've seen From ferrari at least) as the duration that the torque drops below 80% during a shift. This is what is being measured when they quote e.g. 60ms for the scud gearchange.
The shift latency (or perhaps delay) on the other hand would be the time from when you clicked the paddle to when this gear change happens. I don't know what that is but it would include the things you mentioned.
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
nickt:
REALZEUS:
I guess the transmission choice of the 450 will solve which is the faster gearbox conundrum. I still think that F1 is better for track driving. Recently BMW stated that the transmission on their F1 car changes gears in 0.002s!!! Given that there is no such thing as 0 up/down shift time (given the time needed for the processor to give the order, the electrical current to go through the wires, one clitch to engage and the other to dissengage etc) I think that this is as fast if not faster than what a DCT could do in Formula 1.
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FERRARI RULES!!!You are confusing the shift time with the shift latency. The shift time is measured (in graphs I've seen From ferrari at least) as the duration that the torque drops below 80% during a shift. This is what is being measured when they quote e.g. 60ms for the scud gearchange.
The shift latency (or perhaps delay) on the other hand would be the time from when you clicked the paddle to when this gear change happens. I don't know what that is but it would include the things you mentioned.
You have got some valid points there. These new gearboxes are so complicated that are driving us enthusiast mad trying to undertand them...
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FERRARI RULES!!!
Mar 2, 2009 11:16:42 AM
- Georges G. Hayek
- Senior
-
- Loc: Beirut , Lebanon
- Posts: 650, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 1, 2006
- Reply to: REALZEUS
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
If you're searching for DCT "sensations", go play PS3's GT5 Prologue (with the streering wheel ofcourse). Otherwise, nothing, NOTHING could ever be compared to the "sensation” of F1 transmission.
Now, if we're talking about:
1- Reliability
2- Maintenance Cost
3- Even time shifting
The DCT has the edge for sure.
But hey! I'm buying a Ferrari Here! It's no BMW or whatever..! And when you are willing/able to buy a Ferrari, you'll be searching for the ultimate driving "sensation". With no compromise whatsoever..
So from one side, you have the comfort, reliability, saving money ex.... On the other hand, you've got what you've been looking for while shopping for Exotics......................
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2009 430 Scuderia - Rosso Corsa / 2005 997 Carrera - Seal Grey / 2003 996 Carrera (Sold) - Artic Grey / 1998 Z3 2.8 - Montreal Blue
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
dhayek:Well I don't think that many people are too keen on watching their warranty ticking away while the car has to occasionally be repaired due to premature technology.
stefan, why should you care about reliability when you have 3 years warranty, and you can extend it as much as you want???? let it brake.. they will keep replacing..
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09 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
Mule doing winter testing...
http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090316.022/ferrari-f450-test-mule-spied-up-close-during-winter-testing
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There is no try. Just do.
Re: Ferrari F450 out in October
Yes Rossi. But does it look turbo? I believe not. At least not from this picture...
What do you drive these days?
Myself I don't know what to do next, for the first time in my life (with regards to cars of course).
I am tempted by the new GT3 and the future F470, equally.
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There is no try. Just do.
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