Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1??? - Page1

Feb 21, 2009 4:57:50 AM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005

Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

After a short stint with Aston Martin, I came back to the Porsche fold last October, jumping into a manual Gen 2 C2S Cab. Trouble is, it isn't living up to memories of my Gen 1 ownership experiences.

Yes, it's more powerful and more economical but neither of these factors are overly important to me.

The biggy for me is the loss of steering feel resulting from the revised steering geometry. They've done a great job of eliminating the nose bob present in previous 911's and making the car feel more planted at speed but at the expense of that nervous steering chatter that makes the 997.1 stand out above all other cars.

I've come to believe that too much competence in a road sports car can undermine the fun. The Gen.2 911 is a more competant car that will no doubt be faster on track. I just remember having more fun at slower speeds in the Gen.1 997. If you agree with me, the best ever 911 could be the 997.1 GT3 as they are sure to use the new steering revisions on the 997.2 GT3.

The second factor is the engine noise. The DFI 3.8 sounds soulless in comparison with the previous engine. No growl on startup, no burbles on tick over and an altogether different sound towards the red line. I'm sure the upcoming sports exhaust will help but will it be enough. Could this be why the 997.2 GT3 is not getting the DFI engine?

To summarise, I would say the 997.2 is more competent but bland in comparison with 997.1. Having never driven a 996 or 993, I am wondering if this has all been said before about previous evolutions in the 911?

I now find myself looking to change to a used gen 1 cab - am I just suffering from another urge to change yet again or is there sense in this madness?

--
Paul - Caterham R400 Superlight / 997.2 C2S Cab

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Feb 21, 2009 7:52:16 AM

intouch1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Red Sea , Egypt; Posts: 5752, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2004; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

personally i love the nose movement of the 911. this is a feeling you only get from a 911. would be a pity if this sensation was engineered away.....
--
Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

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Feb 21, 2009 10:24:11 AM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: intouch1

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

I haven't driven a 997.2 long enough in differing conditions to comment constructively on handling issues. But I completely agree on two points...

Having fun, at lower speeds, on public roads is becoming increasingly difficult with the levels of traffic, conditions of surfaces and speed cameras everywhere. We don't want it undermined any further. Smiley

Most importantly, the sound of the 997.1 with PSE always on, is still one of the most intoxicating elements of the driving experience. I never cease to enjoy starting the car, the burbles, pops and sheer noise volume. Acceleration, even at legal speeds, more burbles on over-run and when you can red-line... well it's classic 911. Smiley Smiley

--
"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

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Feb 21, 2009 1:02:43 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: intouch1

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

intouch1:
personally i love the nose movement of the 911. this is a feeling you only get from a 911. would be a pity if this sensation was engineered away.....
--
Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

Exactly. For me the 997.1 felt numb after owning a few 996. I love the true mechanical steering feed back of 993 and 996.

--
Happy Driving

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Feb 21, 2009 3:04:24 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

My suggestion: try and find a 997 Mk1 with -20mm sports suspension and rear LSD. I have this and it's an absolute gem of a car. No PASM (it's conventionally sprung), razor sharp steering with abundant steering feel. You feel everything with this car...ask SonOfStig what he thought of my car when we met up some time back. He loved it.

The only cars that I MAY prefer over mine is the 997 GT3 Mk1 (not 997 GT3 RS Mk1) or the new 997 GT3 Mk2.... I've asked for brochures of the new 997 GT3 Mk2. It's really tempting....

--

Rennteam Moderator - 997S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

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Feb 21, 2009 5:39:59 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Yes, I would like to try -20mm. I suspect it would be spot on for me.

I'd also like to try Sports PASM available on the Gen 2 911s.

Anyone on the board have Sports PASM? How does it compare with Gen 2 standard PASM in sport suspension mode?

--
Paul - Caterham R400 Superlight / 997.2 C2S Cab

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Feb 23, 2009 6:05:12 AM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

From an AMV8 to a C4S cab?

What are your impressions?

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Feb 23, 2009 10:05:35 AM

cdixon: Senior; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 680, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 27, 2007; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Pink Panther:

Yes, I would like to try -20mm. I suspect it would be spot on for me.

I'd also like to try Sports PASM available on the Gen 2 911s.

Anyone on the board have Sports PASM? How does it compare with Gen 2 standard PASM in sport suspension mode?

--
Paul - Caterham R400 Superlight / 997.2 C2S Cab

I have SPASM on my gen 2 C2S.... I love it, and would never spec a carrera without it. To drive it is very similar to the 997 GT3 MK1.

Some of the UK roads can make it a bit harsh, on a decent A road i love it.

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Feb 23, 2009 10:12:21 AM

Lars997: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: South , Germany; Posts: 9448, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: intouch1

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

intouch1:
personally i love the nose movement of the 911. this is a feeling you only get from a 911. would be a pity if this sensation was engineered away.....
--
Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

Absolutley the same here! This makes the 911 unique and so different to the mid-engined cars. If they took it away, where is the 911 now? Unfortunatley I didnt drive a 2nd gen yet, so I cant say anything out of own experience.

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Feb 23, 2009 10:21:43 AM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: Lars997

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

I still say the lack of 'always on' PSE is a big mistake with the 997.2 generation. Smiley

--
"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

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Feb 23, 2009 11:13:50 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: John H

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I thought 997 Mk2 PSE has a separate button so it can be used even when one is not in Sport Chrono sport mode. That leaves only 1 complaint: that there is a 30-50 cut-off (for noise reasons).

The more I think about it, I think the Mk1 is better for me and that my car may be a keeper. The only thing I would prefer is the improved PCM and easier iPod connectivity. But I wouldn't base a car choice decision on the gadget advantages/disadvantages.

I myself have several choices:

1) keep my 997 C2S Mk1 with -20mm & LSD
2) keep my 997 C2S Mk1 with -20mm & LSD and get a Gallardo LP560
3) replace my 997 C2S Mk1 with -20mm & LSD with either a 997 GT3 Mk2, 997 TT Mk2, 997 TTS, 991 GT3 Mk1 or 991 TT Mk1.

I'm just biding my time and enjoying my car in the meantime Smiley Smiley

--

Rennteam Moderator - 997S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

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Feb 23, 2009 2:23:35 PM

Italo: Veteran; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 1055, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 29, 2007; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

I had the feeling that you were about to change your car once I noticed that you've removed the slogan "I love this car" from your signature. So why go for an LP560 ? would you consider the forthcoming F450 ?
--
There's only one car, there's only one Porsche

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Feb 23, 2009 2:27:05 PM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

easy_rider911:

That leaves only 1 complaint: that there is a 30-50 cut-off (for noise reasons).

It's the cut-off I was referring to. According to RC there won't be an 'always on mod' for the F/L model... Smiley

--
"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

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Feb 23, 2009 2:44:46 PM

Italo: Veteran; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 1055, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 29, 2007; Reply to: John H

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

John H:

easy_rider911:

That leaves only 1 complaint: that there is a 30-50 cut-off (for noise reasons).

It's the cut-off I was referring to. According to RC there won't be an 'always on mod' for the F/L model...

--
"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

I doubt there will be a cut-off or else Porsche would have specified this when it was released/advertised. For them to assign a separate switch means that you could use it either during spirited driving or while racing in sportsplus mode Smiley

just my 2p

--
There's only one car, there's only one Porsche

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Feb 23, 2009 3:23:16 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Italo

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Italo:
I had the feeling that you were about to change your car once I noticed that you've removed the slogan "I love this car" from your signature. So why go for an LP560 ? would you consider the forthcoming F450 ?
--
There's only one car, there's only one Porsche

Hi Italo, actually I still ADORE my 911. I just revised my signature since it is over 2 years old! Why a Gallardo? Beauty, sound, power, the thrill plus my wife absolutely adores it.

--

Rennteam Moderator - 997S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

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Feb 23, 2009 3:32:17 PM

Italo: Veteran; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 1055, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 29, 2007; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Yeah I agree with you Easy, but don't you reckon Lambo chnages their models too soon. when did we get the SL that within less than 18mths we have the LP 560. I could bet within the next 12moths there would be another Gallardo variation Smiley

Also the depreciation in the UK is too steep for my liking.
--
There's only one car, there's only one Porsche

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Feb 23, 2009 8:43:54 PM

pnoble: Co-Pilot; Loc: Short Hills, NJ , United States; Posts: 231, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 18, 2004; Reply to: Italo

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

I went from 997.1 C2S manual to 997.2 C4S manual so can't make as clean a comparison as Pink Panther but in my view the FL is simply more refined in every way, which this being my daily driver is only a plus.

I don't miss the 'live' steering. I find the C4S FL steering more centered - much of it no doubt due to the AWD, but it doesn't leave me feeling any loss of control. I don't miss the RWD wheel hop either!

Otherwise: the updated PCM is a huge advantage (and the prior one a total disgrace for a car in this price range that was introduced in Q3 of 2004). The improved suspension and slightly wider/lower torque range, not to mention the significantly quieter engine are all pluses for me and my wife when she is in the passenger seat, not to mention those I drive by! And the gear box seems just a bit sweeter.

It is altogether a subtly more refined car to drive and that is all positive for me.

But as separately mentioned, it seems, after close to 4,000 miles to be still less. not more fuel efficient. A mile or so a gallon, driving if anything more frugally since its wider torque band lets one drive in a high gear on the margin.

To me it is just a better car. Period.

--
997 C4S FL

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Feb 23, 2009 11:01:34 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: pnoble

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Hi pnoble,

I agree that the car is more refined. Those wanting the car to grow into more of a GT will be pleased. Those wanting a more raw driving experience will be dissapointed.

SciFrog,

The AMV8 didnt quite do it for me. I prefer the immediacy of the Porsche cars.

--
Paul - Caterham R400 Superlight / 997.2 C2S Cab

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Feb 27, 2009 6:26:36 AM

pnoble: Co-Pilot; Loc: Short Hills, NJ , United States; Posts: 231, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 18, 2004; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

I agree, Pink Panther.

But as a daily driver, from my perspective, it is only improved, give or take the fuel economy. Maybe as a track car it is a step back.

--
997 C4S FL

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Mar 19, 2009 12:13:11 AM

Elijah997: Newbie; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 28, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2009; Reply to: pnoble

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

I am glad I am not the only one who feels in the same way as Paul in regards to the 997.2

I was not too impressed and prefer my current 997. Even on the looks department, I am not overly impressed. The "next" generation is what I will wait for.

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Mar 19, 2009 6:17:31 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Pink Panther:

To summarise, I would say the 997.2 is more competent but bland in comparison with 997.1. Having never driven a 996 or 993, I am wondering if this has all been said before about previous evolutions in the 911?

--
Paul - Caterham R400 Superlight / 997.2 C2S Cab

PP if you had the chance to drive a sequence of previous models you would say the same thing about the 997.1 too. Coming from 993 to 996 to many owners it was step in the wrong direction, and the same from 996 to 997.1 with its variable ratio steering.

People with every generation of 911 complain about the loss of noise, immediacy, steering.

But this is the way to go as all cars become more refined either by market demand or legislation and Porsche just cannot stand still for the sake of nostalgia. Look at how different even the Ferrari california is compared to previous models and this from a very specialised manufacturer aspiring to sell only 10,000 units p.a. at the most.

But for you if you wanted the full driving experience the Cabrio was the wrong choice to begin with.

Anyway, for drivers that want a more wild side to their 911, there is always the GT3/RS that IMO more than satisfies the wilder side of driving. The price of a more basic GT3 is not very far from an oppulently specified C2S cabrio.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

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Mar 21, 2009 4:18:05 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: reginos

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

As a big fan of open top driving, my choice if it existed would be a GT3 cabrio (gen.1)

Perhaps I could transplant a GT3 engine into a Gen 1 cab :)

--
Paul - Caterham R400 Superlight / 997.2 C2S Cab

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Mar 21, 2009 4:24:27 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Everything is possible if you spend $$$$$$ Smiley

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

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Mar 22, 2009 9:11:21 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Pink Panther:

As a big fan of open top driving, my choice if it existed would be a GT3 cabrio (gen.1)

Perhaps I could transplant a GT3 engine into a Gen 1 cab :)

Putting a GT3 engine into a Cab would not give you a GT3 Cab. Smiley

You'd still be missing out on two-thirds of the GT3 experience: the GT3 suspension/brakes and its lower weight. Smiley

--
fritz

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Mar 23, 2009 5:36:26 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

I agree but I would not imagine that the engine, brakes and suspension are all equal contributors to the GT3 experience. I thought the brakes were the same. You can choose steel or ceramic discs on a standard Carrera. Perhaps the biggest omission would be the LSD.
--
Paul - Caterham R400 Superlight / 997.2 C2S Cab

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Mar 23, 2009 6:02:11 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Change from Gen 2 to Gen 1???

Pink Panther:
I agree but I would not imagine that the engine, brakes and suspension are all equal contributors to the GT3 experience. I thought the brakes were the same. You can choose steel or ceramic discs on a standard Carrera. Perhaps the biggest omission would be the LSD.

The reference to "thirds" was artistic license. If I'd intended to be strictly accurate and comprehensive, I would have to mention the transmission, incl. LSD, the shorter shift travel, the reduced sound-insulation measures and a few other nuances, and award percentage weightings to each, since fractions just wouldn't be appropriate. Smiley

The cast-iron brake GT3s have bigger rotors, different pad materials, and a larger pad surface area, so they are not the same as the standard Carrera models.

--
fritz

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