Crown

racerx:

 

6 cyl pushing that weight from a company with motto "There is no substitute", especially when it is no beauty pageant winner (most here agree to that)

 

I wonder how many of those who try to "convince" me(or others here) about sales figures and customer acceptance are dealers and how many are actually customers.

There is a saying in German: "trau keiner Statistik, die du nicht selbst gefälscht hast". Meaning: official sales figures are pretty much pointless to me, so are official "registration" figures. Those in the car business should better understand why than me.

Or to end this unholy discussion about the Cayenne: try to sell a used Cayenne and you realize the value of this product. Especially the Turbo and Turbo S are dropping 20-30% in price the moment the car goes to the customer. One or two years later, with not more than 30000 km on the speedo, you can be happy if you get 50% of the initial price tag.

Another hint: try to lease(!) a fully equipped Cayenne Turbo or a Turbo S right now in Germany. Almost impossible. Especially Porsche Leasing but other Lease companies too try to avoid such leases, urging the dealerships to actually SELL the car to the customer.

The reason is pretty easy to understand: after three or four years of lease, these trucks are almost worthless compared to the initial price tag. Look at the many leased Cayenne going back to dealerships all over the world, they almost ruin the dealerships with their high value on paper. Dealers usually need to shave off 20000-30000 EUR to move these Cayenne(mostly Turbo and Turbo S).

Sorry but if somebody want to convince me that the Cayenne is a successful product, I really have to puke. It was successful...until Porsche let customers down by not getting involved in the unholy discussion about the Cayenne Turbo and its fuel consumption.

Right now, no matter how many Cayenne Diesel or even Hybrid Porsche puts on the street, people learned from the media that the Cayenne is the worlds "dirtiest" car. Perfect job, Porsche. One reason why many owners are stuck with their Cayenne and no dealership wants to trade them for new or other models.

To prove to you guys that it was Porsche's mistake(marketing department messed up things): the BMW X6, not really "cleaner" than the Cayenne and not really lighter than the Cayenne has delivery waiting times of a couple of months depending on the model. It sells pretty well. Why? Because BMW gave the X6 a more sporty, less SUV-looking look, making the X6 look smaller, lighter and sportier. "Ordinary" people are dumb, they don't have a clue about cars, they don't know that the X6 is not much different than the Cayenne.

Anyway: yes, as a customer and longtime Porsche owner I'm very mad at Porsche.

For letting us Cayenne Turbo/S owners down, for making an "upgrade" to the Panamera almost impossible(price tag is ridiculous) and for leaving us with the feeling that Porsche is only about profit and high sales figures, not cars anymore. Sorry but this is what I feel and I know a couple of Porsche owners who feel the same.

This morning an X6 crossed in front of me while waiting at a traffic light. I have nor tired of that shape at all, it is very nice.

Tonight, on my way home I went by the back side of the BMW factory,  The expansion is all framed up in steel beams, Very impressive facility, I wonder if the demand is there. It will be interesting to see what the M version will be like.

RC:
....

Or to end this unholy discussion about the Cayenne: try to sell a used Cayenne and you realize the value of this product. Especially the Turbo and Turbo S are dropping 20-30% in price the moment the car goes to the customer. One or two years later, with not more than 30000 km on the speedo, you can be happy if you get 50% of the initial price tag.

.....

Anyway: yes, as a customer and longtime Porsche owner I'm very mad at Porsche.

.....

For letting us Cayenne Turbo/S owners down, for making an "upgrade" to the Panamera almost impossible(price tag is ridiculous) and for leaving us with the feeling that Porsche is only about profit and high sales figures, not cars anymore. Sorry but this is what I feel and I know a couple of Porsche owners who feel the same.

--
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

I completely agree with your sentiments above RC. That is why I will never buy another Cayenne again, the amount I can get for it with less than 30,000km in 4 years is an utter joke. I will drive this thing into the ground and get my monies worth. To be quite frank, that is also why I haven't bought another Porsche since 2005.

Yepp - and this is why I dont upgrade from the 997 to the 997-2 and most probaly not even to the 991....Sad story - they ruined the market!

BTW - have you seen the resell values in the UK? They are even lower as in rest of Europe. Of course - the market is very limited with the steering wheel on the wrong side ;)

1) Cars are depreciating assets.

2) Right now, NEW car sales are crashing around the world "forcing" assemblers to offer more discounts to lure customers. This is putting even more pressure on USED car unit sales that are crashing (as well) AND used car values.

Right now used car values are testing new lows. In the US, the index that is tracking used vehicles values is at the same level as 1995 !!!!

It is therefore no surprise that ALL used Porsche are taking a nose dive ....

EricAlain:

1) Cars are depreciating assets.

2) Right now, NEW car sales are crashing around the world "forcing" assemblers to offer more discounts to lure customers. This is putting even more pressure on USED car unit sales that are crashing (as well) AND used car values.

Right now used car values are testing new lows. In the US, the index that is tracking used vehicles values is at the same level as 1995 !!!!

It is therefore no surprise that ALL used Porsche are taking a nose dive ....

 

I don't blame Porsche for dropping used car values, I blame them for not supporting a product anymore which apparently made it possible to build better products and to buy Volkswagen. Without the Cayenne, Porsche wouldn't be what it is now.

I somehow get the feeling that Porsche wants Cayenne owners to switch to the Panamera, making it much easier for them(Porsche) to reach that 20000 sales figure in the first year of Panamera production. At a heft price tag, I doubt this will be possible. I also get the feeling that Porsche will offer the Panamera at a much more "competitive" price tag in the US and other regions.

Bottom line is: I feel left alone as a customer and this sucks. 

You're right, it is highly likely that the Panamera will be priced much lower than in Europe for example.

Regarding other regions, I honestly don't know. In many countries, prices are very high because of import duties, very high sales tax rates, ....

By the way, all Porsches are much cheaper in the US than in Europe .... but it has been the case for many years.

Just a few of my thoughts about these recent posts:

1.  Cars are not only depreciating assets, but also used assets.  They are not paintings on a wall, they are to be used, and there is a cost for that use. 

2.  One does take a hit on a new car, but seems to me the manufacturers and dealers are entitled to their share, and for crazies like me I will pay a premium for the new car experience.  Unless the car is a classic, I just won't buy a used car.

3.  And I just ordered a Cayenne Turbo S for April Leipzig pick up.  I know I will take a hit when I try to sell or trade it in 4-5 years, but I don't blame Porsche.  There are so many other factors that affect the market at the time--I get dizzy trying to compute it all.

4.  is the Cayenne dead?  Not in my view, and I often remind myself of the late 1970's when gas lines were everywhere, and everyone was trumpeting the value of small cars (including me).  And did the large car die?  You decide, after checking out SUV sales over the last 25 years. 

5.  And here comes my final bias.  I think the Cayenne is the best looking, best built and best handling SUV on the market.  Mercedes has way too many creases and slants and angles, the X6 is grotesquely out of proportion, and the Land Rover still suffers from the lord of the manor/safari design syndrome.  (I  do like the  Audi design, and can't really speak to its performance--so maybe an exception here). 

And just to perhaps deflect the charge that I am a Porschephile, I have owned Corvettes, Acuras, Mercedes and Ferraris in my life and loved each one.  And if I could have the car of my choice now, with the design and appeal I like the most?  Ferrari 599GTB hands down..

^^^ what he said,excluding point 5

Unfotunately now all cars drop their value like snow at sun..

 in Italy after you go out with your new car from the showroom of your dealer, you just burn 20% of value due to tax,then i in the first year you burn again at least another 10%,and the same for every year gone

Also the more a car costs the more you loss,and the more options you put on the worse is,thing that i do usually

 I buy my Cayenne S in 2004,with 18.000 euros of option for a total of 86.000 Euros,i whant to sell it in 2006 and my dealer whant to give me 48.000 Euros...so i decide to take it at home and doesn't sell it,now my car is 5 years old,it has 48.000kms on the speedo,is like new,and for me his value is a lot more of what i can take if i sold it..

I will change it when the all new Cayenne will come in 2010/2011,due i'm happy for this car,and i will NEVER buy a Panamera,first becouse i hate it,is horrible IMHO!

I think the times to change the car every 3 years are gone,if you can't/don't whant to loose too much money,to have a good compromise between money lost and time of ownership you must stay  around 6 years...at least is what it seems now.

And this is for Cayenne,X5,and all cars that costs much and that sell much,the more they sell the worse thay take value

IMO one of the advantages of buying a good car like Porsche (and perhaps a special Mercedes like the SL) ,instead of a good mainsteam car like BMW or Audi, is that you can keep the Porsche for many years and it will perform and look like new. It will retain its prestige, style and enjoyment to the driver even after 10+ years. Go to a Porsche Club gathering and see how many enthusiasts enjoy their air cooled 911s, 944s, 928s, early 986s and 996s that they bought new or used years ago.

The same happens with the Cayenne. A generation1 Cayenne has a more fresh presence now than an early X5 or an early ML, cars that were competing against when new.

With most other brands you have to change cars every 3-4 years because you either get bored with them, or their style looks old or they don't perform adequately after a while. With Porsche you don't need to change. You change only if you want to be with the latest model, provided you can afford to do so. 

So buy a good Porsche enjoy it for many years and don't think about depreciation and values too much.

well, PAG lost me to a BMW. as RC correctly pointed out, the 'look' seems to be more in line with what the car represents. right now I am much more excited at the prospect of the X6M than the Cayenne Turbo 2.

pricewise, the BMW has the edge too........

reginos:

IMO one of the advantages of buying a good car like Porsche (and perhaps a special Mercedes like the SL) ,instead of a good mainsteam car like BMW or Audi, is that you can keep the Porsche for many years and it will perform and look like new. It will retain its prestige, style and enjoyment to the driver even after 10+ years. Go to a Porsche Club gathering and see how many enthusiasts enjoy their air cooled 911s, 944s, 928s, early 986s and 996s that they bought new or used years ago.

The same happens with the Cayenne. A generation1 Cayenne has a more fresh presence now than an early X5 or an early ML, cars that were competing against when new.

With most other brands you have to change cars every 3-4 years because you either get bored with them, or their style looks old or they don't perform adequately after a while. With Porsche you don't need to change. You change only if you want to be with the latest model, provided you can afford to do so. 

So buy a good Porsche enjoy it for many years and don't think about depreciation and values too much.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

in the 911 world, i agree with you.

cayenne, boxster/cayman and panamera have to compete with the competitors offerings directly though.

a friend of mine bought my cayenne turbo. we parked them next to each other yesterday.

everybody passing by gave the X6 the thumbs up.

The X6 is something new to cars so it is natural that it attracts attention even out of curiosity. My compliments to BMW for finding this niche.

However, BMW and Mercedes are mainstream manufacturers with large volumes and they can produce many variations within the same type of vehicle. Porsche don't have this luxury. IMO the GTS handles slightly less than the X6 but has many other advantages in space and off road ability, so for me it is overall a better proposition if you have to own one car. The X6 due to its unusual for now shape has a curiosity value. It will be "famous" for the next 6 months until its novelty fades.

reginos:

The X6 is something new to cars so it is natural that it attracts attention even out of curiosity. My compliments to BMW for finding this niche.

However, BMW and Mercedes are mainstream manufacturers with large volumes and they can produce many variations within the same type of vehicle. Porsche don't have this luxury. IMO the GTS handles slightly less than the X6 but has many other advantages in space and off road ability, so for me it is overall a better proposition if you have to own one car. The X6 due to its unusual for now shape has a curiosity value. It will be "famous" for the next 6 months until its novelty fades.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

The X6 has 20 Lit. more carriage space than GTS. The seats inside are much more spacious in the X6 compared to the GTS. Regarding off-road capability, did you ever try to ride off-road with high-performance tyres mounted on X6 or GTS, ..? When off-road then take a SUV with height adjustment possibilities not a lowered SUV like GTS.

The X6 has two disadvantages compared to the GTS: - the weigth and the consumption in both cases the GTS is positioned higher

AM

ALDO:

reginos:

The X6 is something new to cars so it is natural that it attracts attention even out of curiosity. My compliments to BMW for finding this niche.

However, BMW and Mercedes are mainstream manufacturers with large volumes and they can produce many variations within the same type of vehicle. Porsche don't have this luxury. IMO the GTS handles slightly less than the X6 but has many other advantages in space and off road ability, so for me it is overall a better proposition if you have to own one car. The X6 due to its unusual for now shape has a curiosity value. It will be "famous" for the next 6 months until its novelty fades.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

The X6 has 20 Lit. more carriage space than GTS. The seats inside are much more spacious in the X6 compared to the GTS. Regarding off-road capability, did you ever try to ride off-road with high-performance tyres mounted on X6 or GTS, ..? When off-road then take a SUV with height adjustment possibilities not a lowered SUV like GTS.

The X6 has two disadvantages compared to the GTS: - the weigth and the consumption in both cases the GTS is positioned higher

--

AM

I've taken a Cayenne S off-road on a very demanding course with M+S tyres and it was excellent. As good as a tough japanese off-roader.  Also the GTS can be ordered with height adjustable air suspension too.

The X6 handles little better on the road.

I didn'tknow about the extra luggage space of the X6 but perhaps the shape of the rear makes this extra space less useable.

AM

ALDO:
maybe the space is less usable, I have never tried to carry a fridge or so, but I suppose it will easier fit in a Cayenne.
--

AM

 A friend carried a washing machine in his Cayenne

Guess what I carried in my CTT08 last week...........................? five 35"x12.5x15TL (35" tall) offroad tyres for my jeep wrangler. I obviously was extremely careful not to damage my alcantara (and I didn't) but I have one tire on the front seat and 4x in the back (seats down), amazing in one word. The tyres were supplied in a carbonfibre reenforced bag and I made sure didnt mark. Wish I had taken a picture.

Well, this is actually a Panamera discussion, my bad that it went down to a Cayenne discussion. 

I would however like to make some last comments regarding the Cayenne: I never cared too much about the Cayenne's off-road capabilities, simply because without the right tires, they're pretty much useless. I agree with ALDO that Porsche should have offered a street version of the Cayenne with less off-roading gimmicks and more sportiness minus weight.

Porsche entered a new market with the Cayenne and they wanted to do the impossible, offering a SUV with sportscar capabilities. It was an impossible task but they delivered a pretty good off-roader nobody actually asked for, as weird as this may sound. 

The Cayenne is definetely not the best looking SUV on the market (I like the look of the new BMW X5 and the Range Rover Sport much more)  but after the facelift, it has improved a lot. Too bad that Porsche "forgot" the interior with the facelift.

To actually finish the Cayenne discussion on this forum: I'm upset that Porsche seems to let their customers down, not that their products have a higher loss of value these days. I would love to lease a new Cayenne Turbo S for example but this is almost an impossible task, simply because the lease companies don't want to take the risk. Even worse: dealers don't seem to care about "complicated" deals, they are only after the simple "put the money on the desk" deals, everything else seems to be too much trouble, too much headache and too much asking around. Porsche may to be blamed for this situation, simply because they actually put the dealers(I can talk about Germany only) under a lot of financial pressure(CI, etc.), leaving them no real space for attractive offers for potential customers.

This is a life lesson to be learned I guess. Buying a premium car doesn't mean you stay a premium customer, lesson learned and the logical conclusion from this "lesson" will be drawn as soon as possible.  

RC,

the usage of a car should be predictable. I mean we all expect when pushing the brake that the car will stop according to the speed and terrain after certain distance.

The same has to happen with the price for the usage. They should forget all the lease, buy and finance and ofer us a model like: you pay for the usage. In this usage you get the car. They should take the risk, not us and not the dealer or any bank. The dealer gets some part for their service and that´s it.

AM

ALDO:

RC,

the usage of a car should be predictable. I mean we all expect when pushing the brake that the car will stop according to the speed and terrain after certain distance.

The same has to happen with the price for the usage. They should forget all the lease, buy and finance and ofer us a model like: you pay for the usage. In this usage you get the car. They should take the risk, not us and not the dealer or any bank. The dealer gets some part for their service and that´s it.

--

AM

Sounds interesting but I doubt that a dealer could take the risk, only a manufacturer could really make such an offer.

Porsche needs to get innovative regarding financial and/or distribution models.

I recently saw an ad from Porsche Leasing, offering a special lease for the Cayman/Boxster where you can decide how long you want to lease the car, 6, 8 or 12 months.

This sounds highly interesting but I haven't seen the numbers yet, so I suppose (since Porsche Leasing is involved) that it won't be cheap at all, on the contrary.

If Porsche wants to sell/move more cars, there is a real need for new financial/distribution models. Of course there is a risk involved but why not make a trial with a limited number of vehicles to test such financial "models"?

On the other hand, I would not really like it to sit in a 997 Turbo which has been driven by a stranger before. Have you ever seen how people are climbing boardwalks with their sportscars? I don't care much about engine or gearbox wear/usage on a leased car but when it comes to my safety, I'm pretty much VERY worried. Two friends already had tires blowing up on rented cars (pressure was OK), so this says a lot about how these tires were treated by the previous drivers. This is actually my only concern regarding short term lease/renting models based on usage.

Another thing is: if somebody drives only lets say 3000 km a year, this would be a very expensive experience for Porsche to "rent out" such a car and take it in after two years.

So there is the need for some sort of minimum mileage/time for a rent. Imagine however paying 3000 EUR per month for renting a 997 Turbo for half a year, this isn't acceptable either.

Maybe car manufacturers should learn to build better and nicer cars from the start, keeping a model cycle alive much longer than they do now. The 997 received  a substantial facelift after three years only, what the heck happened to the "youngtimer" 911?

Porsche had some very "fat" years in the past, even if they didn't earn much money with cars. If they want to survive, they can't afford to loose 30-50% of previous sales in a year, something which could very easily happen in 2009.

Right now, I only have the feeling that dealers couldn't care less about the current financial crisis, at least in regards to sales figures and interesting deals. I contacted my dealer twice regarding the 997 Turbo and Cayenne Turbo S and time has passed and he didn't bother to even call with back with a "status update". If I would do the same in my business, I wouldn't be able to afford a Porsche. It happens to me almost every day: customers are asking for a certain deal, mostly deals I don't like too much because they involve huge rebates. On the other hand I know exactly that the customer is going to buy his stuff somewhere else if I don't offer him a similar deal or at least a deal he feels good with. I usually decide on an individual basis, for example I try to weight in our service for this particular customer and how much he seems to appreciate it. If he's a "complicated" customer who needs a lot of service, we usually give less rebate. I know that difficult customers come to us exactly because they get treated differently at my business but sometimes it is REALLY difficult to deal with these people, simply because some of them are just plain nuts. Still...they feed my family, so I shouldn't complaint too much about them. For a small business like mine, I make a good living.

Porsche (and the dealers) should wake up NOW before it is too late.

It is one thing if the general population doesn't have money but right now a lot of rich people lost a lot of money and if they start looking for good deals and if they start to cut back on luxury items (Moscow's financial elite is a very good example, a friend there told me that rich people started to cut back a LOT on luxury compared to the previous years), the industry should be very very worried. 

I don't say that this current financial situation is going to last forever but the next 12-24 months will be critical and a lot of capital will go down the drain, resulting in dramatically high unemployment rates, especially in Europe. I'm not too much worried with the US economy and unemployment rate, the US has a history of getting up on the feet very fast.

The problem is much worse in Europe: our governments move slowly, they need too much time to discuss and "sync" it with the EC and there are a lot of "leftist" parties in Europe waiting to gain control of power as soon as the population decides that they want a different government. With unemployment rates skyrocketting over this year and maybe next year, it will be very hard for conservative and even social democratic governments to stay in power.

To make it short: Porsche could rely on customers like us now, enthusiasts who are not at the brink of a financial bankruptcy but who need to cut down on spending to make sure they don't jeoperdize their financial future. This requires to find new business models to move their cars but I doubt they will be innovative enough to find them. It is also a matter of money, even Porsche doesn't have anything to give away for free.

Interesting post, RC, thanks.  As I was negotiating for my Cayenne Turbo S, my dealer was fair and cooperative.  He did tell me that Porsche was not giving him the profit room he had before, but we did arrive at a fair price (one that was better than I could have negotiated in better financial times).  While I will not be revealing my discount, I was pleased with it.  So I guess my point is that my dealer, at least, was willing to discount to sell a car.

I won't speculate on any creative financing that will be offered by Porsche this coming year, but I would bet they come up with something.  Definitely a terrible economy for purchasing a luxury automobile...

Not sure how much more innovative Porsche can get on financing but leasing already got many more people into a Porsche than could really afford one. If you want to lease a Cayenne for 3 years than the residual would most likely be in the range of 30% today and it would make monthly lease payments really unattractive unless you provide a huge upfront payment.

Cars are most expensive for those who like to change cars frequently. Own the car for 10 years and a Porsche will likely perform better than most. A nice 930 Turbo still commands 40-50k Euro despite being now 20+ years old. How is that for value?

Porsche will have to learn to give sales incentives like BMW, AUDi and others do. Dealers need to make money too. they cant if they have to shoulder the 20% discounts themselves. If they sell more cars then they will have to give discounts. Irrespective of that, the car will still lose 20-30% the first year as the market is aware of the discount schemes. Btw peolpe are getting 12-15% discounts for Cayennes if not more (certainly for dealer spec cars).

So you will need to decide for yourself how much a new car is worth to you. Frankly I would not buy a Porsche right now. Things will get worse and at one point dealers will come to you to try and sell their cars...

FYI, it's official, Panamera will NOT be revealed at Geneva BUT at the Shangai show.

ISUK let's assume your asumption of Panamera = Cayenne + 5.0% is right. It would mean:

Cayenne GTS (405 hp) = € 65,600 (excl. VAT) --> Panamera S = € 68,900 (excl sales tax)

BMW 750i (407 hp) = € 82,400 --> Panamera: -16% vs BMW

S Class 500 (388 hp) = € 91,700 --> Panamera: -25% vs Mercedes

Audi A8 4.2 V8 FSI (350hp) = € 75,700 --> Panamera: -9% vs Audi

Maserati Quattroporte (400 hp) = € 95,350 --> Panamera: -28% vs Maserati.

If your dealer is right: People will wait in line to buy the Panamera and Porsche will sell at least 50-60k units per year OR your dealer is totally depressed and is just dreaming of something that will not happen....

By the way, the Boxster is more expensive than the SLK or the Z4 or the TT. The Cayenne is priced more or less in line with the X5 and the ML ... so why would you want to see Panamera selling at a HUGE discount to its competitors ...

Spain prices...

Cayenne GTS (405hp) 87.300€

Cayenne S (385hp) 75.900€

X5 48i  (355hp) 79.400€

BMW 750i (407 hp) 104.200€

BMW 740i L6 (326hp) 86.400€

ML500 (388hp) 80.500€

S Class 500 (388 hp)  107.600€

Q7 4.2 V8 FSI (350hp) 76.500€

 Audi A8 4.2 V8 FSI (350hp) 92.100€

Maserati Quattroporte 126.000€

Panamera S NEVER under 90.000€

95.000€ for Spain should be a good price, that means 90k€ inc.tax in Germany

Eric,

Only reporting what I was told - never said I believed it

For what it's worth I think my dealer is correct in his assumption that if the Panamera S is going to cost north of £90k in the UK once given a modest spec then it's dead in the water in this market at least.