Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Cargraphic Stage 2 - Page1

Dec 5, 2008 2:14:42 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006

Cargraphic Stage 2

This past year I installed a Cargraphic exhaust, IPD plenum and BMC filter and the result was noticeable. I'm planning to go to stage 2 package this coming summer together with a bilstein pss10 suspension upgrade. Does the Cargraphic ecu upgrade(544bhp) elevate the redline? Does a 7000 rpm redline stress the engine to a level where it compromises its longevity? I'd really like to have a little more synphony out of the flat 6, but not if it produces excessive wear. Any guidance would be very much appreciated. Smiley

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997TT Coupe, sil/blk,pccb's,sc,lsd, cargraphic exhaust, IPD plenum and other goodies.

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Dec 5, 2008 3:15:20 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

Welcome to the club!

No the redline is not affected to my knowledge.

After the powerkit you won't need to redline the car anyway as all that torque is available so low down and SO MUCH SMOOTHER. When you get to above 5500-6000rpm the car just screams though - especially through tunnels! You won't want louder above this rev range.

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Dec 5, 2008 3:24:22 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

Thanks Alex, I like the idea of being able to keep it at stock redline. Where did you have the work done on the ECU. It's not practical for me to take the car to California to have it done. Can my dealership swap out the ECU, they are a dealer for cargraphic. If Cargraphic is advised of the upgrades performed prior to shipping the ECU, will this suffice in optomizing the result.
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997TT Coupe, sil/blk,pccb's,sc,lsd, cargraphic exhaust, IPD plenum and other goodies.

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Dec 5, 2008 3:33:26 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

The ECU has to be shipped to Germany as far as I am aware - usually via a local reseller (Parr in my case here in the UK). Takes about 10 days I recall.

I am not sure that advising CG what you have mod'ed on your car will make any difference to the remap. This is why I haven't had the IPD plenum done yet. The ECU is optimized for the CG exhaust and BMC air-filer combination. I don't think having the plenum will be a problem as such, but perhaps as not optimized as it could be if RS-Tuning had developed with that combination.

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Dec 5, 2008 3:37:40 PM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2280, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

Alex_997TT:

The ECU has to be shipped to Germany as far as I am aware - usually via a local reseller (Parr in my case here in the UK). Takes about 10 days I recall.

I am not sure that advising CG what you have mod'ed on your car will make any difference to the remap. This is why I haven't had the IPD plenum done yet. The ECU is optimized for the CG exhaust and BMC air-filer combination. I don't think having the plenum will be a problem as such, but perhaps as not optimized as it could be if RS-Tuning had developed with that combination.

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The ECUs actually go back to RS Tuning via Cargraphic for the file uploading AFAIK..... Their line on the plenum is that it adds zilch power/torque and they don't use them on any of their kits - nuff said Smiley

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Dec 5, 2008 4:03:12 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

TB993tt:
Their line on the plenum is that it adds zilch power/torque and they don't use them on any of their kits - nuff said

Not technically true Toby ...

CG use the IPD Plenum on their Kit 4 (624PS/826Nm), Kit 5 (645PS/855Nm),and Kit 6 (680PS/867Nm).

But these go from 35k EURO up to 70k EURO - so I guess they throw everything they can into these kits. As Tecco's says "every little helps" Smiley

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Dec 5, 2008 4:55:39 PM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2280, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

Not technically true Toby ...

CG use the IPD Plenum on their Kit 4 (624PS/826Nm), Kit 5 (645PS/855Nm),and Kit 6 (680PS/867Nm).

But these go from 35k EURO up to 70k EURO - so I guess they throw everything they can into these kits. As Tecco's says "every little helps"

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Technically true I think Alex Smiley I am talking about RS Tuning's house offerings NOT CG's versions.....

Unfortunately even CG can get seduced by offering profit enhancing "add ons" , another example is the "Motorsport" intercooler they offer for the 993tt which is actually worse than stock.....

Whilst I like CG and would not want to say negative things about them, there are plenty of errors in their tuning kits and graphs. For example the pricing for kits above 800NM should include fitting Carrillo rods and LWFWs and clutches. If you (are sad enough to Smiley ) look at the power/torque graphs there are loads of errors where the torque is incorrect when extrapolated from the power line - fortunately they sell VERY few 600+hp engines so it never becomes a problem...

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Dec 7, 2008 6:37:25 PM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

TB993tt:

Not technically true Toby ...

CG use the IPD Plenum on their Kit 4 (624PS/826Nm), Kit 5 (645PS/855Nm),and Kit 6 (680PS/867Nm).

But these go from 35k EURO up to 70k EURO - so I guess they throw everything they can into these kits. As Tecco's says "every little helps"

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Technically true I think Alex I am talking about RS Tuning's house offerings NOT CG's versions.....

Unfortunately even CG can get seduced by offering profit enhancing "add ons" , another example is the "Motorsport" intercooler they offer for the 993tt which is actually worse than stock.....

Whilst I like CG and would not want to say negative things about them, there are plenty of errors in their tuning kits and graphs. For example the pricing for kits above 800NM should include fitting Carrillo rods and LWFWs and clutches. If you (are sad enough to ) look at the power/torque graphs there are loads of errors where the torque is incorrect when extrapolated from the power line - fortunately they sell VERY few 600+hp engines so it never becomes a problem...

Toby, the RS Tuning website does not have details on any 997 TT tuning package, while the CG packages are marketed as CG/RS tuning packages on their site. The addition of the plenum and the secans seems to add less than 30 hp in an already tuned car so the plenum by itself is responsible for a small part, I agree.

Do you have any info about RS tuning 997 TT packages and what they would include? and how come none of the european tuners mention the effect of gas octane on the hp/tq numbers, while we know that these cars are hugely affected by octane rating given the right tune.

2007 997 TT Protomotive

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Dec 7, 2008 11:13:10 PM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2280, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

AAHTT:

Toby, the RS Tuning website does not have details on any 997 TT tuning package, while the CG packages are marketed as CG/RS tuning packages on their site. The addition of the plenum and the secans seems to add less than 30 hp in an already tuned car so the plenum by itself is responsible for a small part, I agree.

Do you have any info about RS tuning 997 TT packages and what they would include? and how come none of the european tuners mention the effect of gas octane on the hp/tq numbers, while we know that these cars are hugely affected by octane rating given the right tune.

2007 997 TT Protomotive

There may be a bit of a clue in why CG don't offer the plenums on the lower power kits, if they give guaranteed extra power then for the money surely they would be a no brainer ?

RS told me that the plenums did not do anything for torque on the engine dyno Smiley

I think I would be correct in saying that CG sells very few kits other than 1 and 2 as they represent best value and all the others need Carrillos (and break the 997tt gearboxes !) which is a much bigger job which most people don't want or need really for the performance difference so the CG kits 3 upwards I would treat as "indicative" of what is on offer since if one ordered one there would undoubtably be scope for "options" - the kits RS would do for you would be very similar but would end up costing a lot more than the advertised CG prices as Carrillos, LWFWs and clutches would be fitted...

Your comment about the "less than 30hp" is against a background of bolt on goodies with their chassis dyno proven 20, 30 or more hp - the engine dyno set up is much more harsh and every RS hp costs mega bucks, but it is "Porsche real" and still be with you when things get hot !

I would guess that the answer to the fuel is to do with the fact that commonly in Europe people race with commercially available 98/100RON but I know they can and do also tune race engines for race fuel when requested certainly for road cars the unavailability of higher octane juice is such that everyone sticks with the pump stuff 98/100RON...

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Dec 8, 2008 1:18:14 AM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

Interesting, I thought CG used an engine dyno like RS Tuning since they share marketing for those packages, but good to know.

Regarding octane, thanks for the clarification I did not know that european tuners only offer gas pump tunes. The extremely popular use of race fuel in th US and the easy availability explains some of the discrepency in power/torque numbers between the US and European tuners since I suspect most tuners here use the higher numbers (using race fuel) to market their packages, even when the tune is switchable for the lesser gas.

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2007 997 TT Protomotive

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Dec 8, 2008 11:38:08 AM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2280, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

Only a few have bespoke Porsche turbo engine dyno set ups, Ruf being another and this guy another http://www.spezialmotorer.com - actually how the final DIN power number is arrived at is another area of "interpretation" in particular with these turbo motors since the size of the number depends hugely of the correction factor applied which depends on the intake air temp number used which itself depends on the dyno rig's cooling set up and capabilities and whether they are representative of the road/track for example Ruf doesn't use the expensive Secan technology so IMO some of his higher power numbers are not as accurate as they used to be in the days when the CTR was rated at 469PS DIN yet still managed 213mph.....

I know the US hp thing is always a fun debate but I am fairly convinced now days that it is simply the way the cars are used which leads to the majority of Euro cars having lower power ratings - 9ff likes to build the mega hp stuff but will readily advise customers of hefty "maintenance" schedules needed if the cars are used properly on the autobahn (and these can be serious schedules like new heads etc) the opportunity to stress an engine like even a day's play on De's public motorway network can never happen in the US hence the 700+hp road engines can last a fair time (although I suspect that we don't get to hear of the ones which have serious problems).

Also how many "700hp" US engines could actually hit maximum revs in top gear without issues or race engine maintenance schedules ? This is what the better Euro cars can do and reliably. I know RS are building an 800hp motor for a 997GT2 client and the cost in in excess of 100K Euro - this is the true cost of a 800hp Porsche turbo motor......

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Dec 8, 2008 12:09:18 PM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2280, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

As an illustration of the measurement of Porsche turbo power on dynos here is my absolute favourite.

It is a Gemballa 996GT2 and it has been power tested on a Maha LPS3000, same as operated my Manthey and producer of accurate DIN power measurements right ?

Not when someone wants to screw the measurements !

They have done two things to get bigger numbers firstly they have put too high an air intake number by either manual input or just finding a nice hot place for the sensor it shows 75DegC - now maybe this is the post intercooler temperature but for a true DIN measurement this temp should be the temp of the air ingested at the airfilter.

The second thing they have done is somehow they have produced a large amount of drag during the coastdown phase - they got 135.9PS worth for 2WD 996GT2 ! for reference my 993tt in 2WD mode had 90PS on the same type of dyno !

The drag gave a fantasic HP at the motor number of 611PS and then the IAT boosted the DIN correction factor to give a whopping 699PS DIN....

How mad is this ? Well my 993tt is engine dynoed at 577PS DIN and Manthey's Maha got it virtually spot on but the killer for the Gemballa is that the wheel hp measured was virtually identical for my 577PS car and the Gemball 700PS car - both around 475 RWHP

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Dec 8, 2008 12:47:22 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

great sleuthing Toby. I know of many instances where domestic shops will "prove" power gains by monkeying with correction factors so their customers are initially happy. I am afraid this happens more often than not. It is a dirty little secret in the motorsport world.
--

track vid

0-300kph

chasing a 997GT2

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Mar 18, 2009 6:23:36 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: eclou

Re: Cargraphic Stage 2

Loran - how you getting on with your CG stage II powerkit? Managed to give it a proper exercise yet?

I am still loving mine - it's not missed a beat since I had it and getting some pretty good fuel ecomony figures on top!!

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