Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion) - Page2

Mar 2, 2006 9:03:05 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003

Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

I certainly don't have to make up any excuses for picking the Tiptronic.
I would still be my choice if the numbers where reversed.
Initially i was hoping for PDK, but as always Porsche made the best of what they have to offer right now.

I KNOW!!! they could release the Turbo with 550 HP, but this has never been the philosophy of Porsche, financially or technically.

You should know that in the not so distant future you wont even be able to buy a Porsche with a manual gearbox.
Cost of warranty issues vs manual.
Bulk of customers will change to PDK from manual.
Why produce a gearbox so inferior to what is technically possible: Manual vs PDK

To better calculate financial cost/warranty issues I would sell the car with 2 options.

Tiptronic - Normal customer (comfortable,rarely goes to the track)

PSC (PDK) - Sport oriented customer (for a customer that wants a more active driving experience, for track etc) (Option)

The Manual gearbox has reached the end of its technical evolution

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Mar 2, 2006 9:06:50 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Then why can't you get the GT3 with Tiptronic?

Also, what advantage does the Tip have over PDK? They can both shift automatically.

PDK and Manual to me make more sense as transmission choices.

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Mar 2, 2006 9:14:56 PM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:
I certainly don't have to make up any excuses for picking the Tiptronic.
I would still be my choice if the numbers where reversed.
Initially i was hoping for PDK, but as always Porsche made the best of what they have to offer right now.

I KNOW!!! they could release the Turbo with 550 HP, but this has never been the philosophy of Porsche, financially or technically.

You should know that in the not so distant future you wont even be able to buy a Porsche with a manual gearbox.
Cost of warranty issues vs manual.
Bulk of customers will change to PDK from manual.
Why produce a gearbox so inferior to what is technically possible: Manual vs PDK

To better calculate financial cost/warranty issues I would sell the car with 2 options.

Tiptronic - Normal customer (comfortable,rarely goes to the track)

PSC (PDK) - Sport oriented customer (for a customer that wants a more active driving experience, for track etc) (Option)

The Manual gearbox has reached the end of its technical evolution

So after this evaluation you have made, the future of Porsche could also be self driven motors where you would be a copilot, still very fast but not manually operated. No warranty problems with that

Well this means there is a spot open for well made, driver oriented cars in the market for the near future

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Mar 2, 2006 9:15:41 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:
The Manual gearbox has reached the end of its technical evolution

All the more reason to get one while you can

Maybe they'll be worth a mint 15 years from now

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Mar 2, 2006 9:17:51 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: TX 911

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

I said in the not so distant future!

Tiptronic would not have worked so well in the GT3 because of its engine characteristics.
It's a mechanical concept vs the electronic/computerized high torque concept on the Turbo.

PSK (PDK) is the obvious and ONLY transmission choice for the GT3 when introduced.

Tiptronic would of course work on the GT3 engine but wouldn't yield the same advantages as on the Turbo.

Right now, manual is the superior transmission choice for the GT3 concept.

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Mar 2, 2006 9:19:06 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Your prediction is accurate regarding the manual gearbox. It has been on its deathbed for almost 5 years and soon most if not all car manufacturers will perform a mercy killing and do away with it all together.

What you failed to mention is the other anachronism Porsche is clinging to. The rear engine set up. It has been past its usefulness for years yet Porsche continues it because it has an avid base of customers who have not moved on technologically. Clearly Porsche can and does engineer a car which will perform better than the antiquated rear engine.

I suspect they are waiting for the right time to jettison this relic from the past.

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Mar 2, 2006 9:19:57 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

but, again, why not offer PDK or manual rather than Tiptronic vs. PDK? Does the Tip do something that you don't think PDK will be capable of?

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Mar 2, 2006 9:24:29 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
nberry said:
Your prediction is accurate regarding the manual gearbox. It has been on its deathbed for almost 5 years

Don't you think there will always be those who prefer the more direct involvement of a manually shifted car? I understand the numbers may not be great enough to justify it for mainstream cars, but I would think sports cars would always have a manual option.

That's why I was thinking PDK vs. Manual would be a better choice than PDK vs. Tiptronic.

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Mar 2, 2006 9:24:45 PM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: TX 911

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Why can't you understand that there always be people that want to control the car as much as possible and not pull a paddle to change gear. USA guys should be the first to admit that for the last years the sales of manual cars from enthusiasts has gone up a lot.

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Mar 2, 2006 9:27:05 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
So after this evaluation you have made, the future of Porsche could also be self driven motors where you would be a copilot, still very fast but not manually operated. No warranty problems with that

Well this means there is a spot open for well made, driver oriented cars in the market for the near future

Maybe we should ask Porsche to offer a Delete option for ABS brakes.

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Mar 2, 2006 9:38:27 PM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:

Quote:
So after this evaluation you have made, the future of Porsche could also be self driven motors where you would be a copilot, still very fast but not manually operated. No warranty problems with that

Well this means there is a spot open for well made, driver oriented cars in the market for the near future

Maybe we should ask Porsche to offer a Delete option for ABS brakes.

ABS brakes have nothing to do with driving the car. ABS does not intrude with normal driving until you made the mistake of applying to much force and start locking the wheels.

If you want to achive the best performance from the car buy a tip and hire a racing driver to drive for you, then you should be pretty sure nobody is faster.

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Mar 2, 2006 9:47:08 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Manual steering is OBSOLETE anyway.
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/gadgets/gm-to-launch-auto-pilot-of-sorts-on-2008-opel-vectra-122509.php

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Mar 2, 2006 9:50:46 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
but, again, why not offer PDK or manual rather than Tiptronic vs. PDK? Does the Tip do something that you don't think PDK will be capable of?

Tiptronic will be standard equipment

PDK - offer this to customers who wants a more involving and sporty gearbox at an extra cost of course.

Even you yourself probably dont want a manual once you have tried the new PSK.

Regarding the rear engine concept:

As long as Porsche sells enough cars to justify its continous technical evolution vs developing a completely new product with all its problems, then I guess we wont see any change.

I embrace the moment Porsche decides to produce a midengine "CGT type car" with VTG,PTM,PSM,PDK,PASM,DI and all the electronic wizardry they can come up with.

600 HP+
800 NM+ from low rpm to high rpm!
low weight

All at a price tag of around Euro 250.000 or $ 250.000.

And it doesn't have to be limited in production.

But for now I am very excited what they currently have to offer

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Mar 2, 2006 10:01:57 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:

Quote:
So after this evaluation you have made, the future of Porsche could also be self driven motors where you would be a copilot, still very fast but not manually operated. No warranty problems with that

Well this means there is a spot open for well made, driver oriented cars in the market for the near future

Maybe we should ask Porsche to offer a Delete option for ABS brakes.

You may be onto something

Porsche has moved up the lard chain to mullify the safety concerns of both ageing and unskilled first time buyers. Those customers will spend big money for a toy, but also want electronic security blankets handed out so they can somehow justify their purchase.

I drove without benefit of ABS for years. I really don't
need it now. I never felt vulnerable without it until I
found out it existed

And the same way for lots of other content on modern cars.
Do I need PASM? Not really. PCM? No. Traction Control? No.
Electronic Differential? No. A dual mass flywheel to reduce transmission noise? No. Hydraulic motormounts and a seperate subchassis for the engine to reduce NVH? Dont need that either. Porsche could delete all of that tomorrow and
it wouldnt bother me.

BMW has a telematic system where a operator calls your cell phone to tell you to schedule a oil change. They market it as a psychological assurance. I guess BMW thinks their owners have small minds. Porsche doesnt even bother to include a dipstick to manually check the oil anymore. Nice.

And now we have the 997 VTG. A car with more processing power and capability then the Apollo moon lander. A CAN BUS networked system of sensors and controllers to optimize, choose and decide mechanical and dynamic functions for the driver.

Marvelous on paper but is it really needed? For all of its ability and complexity it eaks past a relatively stone age Corvette by mere tenths of a second.

Is it really worth the cost and reliability issues involved with such a system? I dont think so.

Does it make a sports car more FUN? No.

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Mar 2, 2006 10:28:06 PM

DamienL: Veteran; Loc: Ontario, Canada; Posts: 890, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 14, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Look at Ferrari. I think at least 80% of their cars are ordered with the F1 transmission (correct me if I'm wrong). The Enzo didn't even have a manual gearbox as an option.
There will always be something to be said about the way a manual transmission gives you total control, but I also believe that its days may be limited.

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Mar 2, 2006 10:33:12 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Lets remember that Porsche sells cars in Europe as well, not only in the US and here if Porsche decides to sell only auto-boxes they are instantly shaving off a part of the market without any mayor benefit. A manual box is not hard to make, or develop, they are not expensive and they will have to offer io as an option since they are many people who cannot think of a real sportcar that does not allow you the pleasure and challenge of a clutch and stick. Not to mention the image they would get

It doesn't matter how good the PDK and nay future auto-tranny is, there is still not clutch and manual engament of the transmission, that to many sportcar enthusiasts is a very challenging, leasurable and integral part of the sportcar driving experience.

And for racecars you have to fit what gives the most performance period, but for a street car you go with what ever gives you more pleasure to drive, and let me tell you a driver with experience driving a manual is just as fast on the streets and mountain roads with a manual than with any auto.

If Porsche does not give the manal as an option I would bve looking else were into my REAL sportcar, its just that important. Poseurs driving to starbucks or stoplight racers are not the only buyers of Porsches. And poeple with legitimate reasons to buy an auto (people with tough communtes, back problems, confort oriented, etc) are not 100% of the market.

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Mar 2, 2006 10:46:45 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Porsche has put the 997TT in competition with Mercedes and BMW to see who can have the most "ABC" 3 letter acronyms for electronic helper systems. Reliability and actual, real usefulness take a backseat to feature matching competitors questionable electronic products.

Its all gotten ridiculous and German automobile marketing departments are to blame for it.

The real rat in the Porsche woodpile is Weidiking. He is ultimately responsible for Porsche jumping into the Mercedes SL swimming pool. I have not seen ONE picture of him actually driving a Porsche. Have you?

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Mar 2, 2006 10:50:12 PM

jcparki: Pilot; Loc: Australia , Australia; Posts: 436, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I have not seen ONE picture of him actually driving a Porsche. Have you?

Your right...all the pics are of him SITTING in his cars....not driving them?

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Mar 2, 2006 11:03:28 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: jcparki

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

No pictures of him driving a Porsche are on the net, and he doesnt even wear a Porsche watch in public.

Is he even a car guy? Ive never seen any PR about him liking cars, collecting cars or driving cars !

I know that Herr Peich is a car nut of the first order.Who
else would demand a 914 with a flat 8 motor be built for him?

Bob Lutz of GM owns his own private jet fighter, collects
Aston Martins, races cars, etc..

But what about Wiediking? Does he even like sports cars himself? Ferry drove Porsches until the very end of his life. I dont see the passion for driving Porsches in
Weidiking.

Anyone have any info at all about him actually behind the wheel of a moving Porsche?

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Mar 2, 2006 11:04:31 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: jcparki

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Can you imagine him driving 997GT3 around Ring?!

I can not!
OK. CF claim that Porsche future is PDK and TIP transmission... But, competition is then better-look at new AMG 7-G Tronic in CLK and CLS 63 AMG, this autobox can handle up to 800Nm and is honestly more advanced then old 5speed MB Tip(new 997 Turbo TIP is based on one of those).
Aston Martin Touchtronic is also excellent autobox(6speed and came from ZF). New 997 Turbo is faster in straight line as TIP only because two reasons(I know, we have good technical explanantion from Porsche allready...):
1.New 997 Turbo was designed as TIP from ground up and manual is just add on thing(although then I do not understand why is Posche offering LSD as manual only option)
2. As RC said TIP is electronically more advanced(Black Box!) and interaction of all gadgets works in synergy in TIP version. Here we have to see first test in auto press...
Will there be(maybe) small turbo leg in manual version?
I do not know and honestly do not care... For me 997 Turbo is manual with optional LSD! Why? I want to control the car as far as possible and to enjoy it at the same time... With TIP(despite the fact that this TIP is awsome) gearbox I have a feeling that AI is controling car more then I do...

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Mar 2, 2006 11:16:07 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: jcparki

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Instead of focusing on this manual vs Tiptronic issue, you should all direct your attention to the new innovations by Porsche/Weissach.

PTM

VTG and the new PASM

I hope you all start to focus on what's really important about this new Turbo soon.

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Mar 2, 2006 11:25:07 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:
Instead of focusing on this manual vs Tiptronic issue, you should all direct your attention to the new innovations by Porsche/Weissach.

PTM
VTG and the new PASM

I hope you all start to focus on what's really important about this new Turbo soon.

...soon Porsche will become BMW or Mercedes. At least they'll have the shape that makes them look like sports cars.
PDK is one thing however, Tip is far from being PDK.
Like I said Tip is for old men, women and (this one's for you Mike) people that are really tall or have extraordinarily large feet.

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Mar 2, 2006 11:25:47 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:
Instead of focusing on this manual vs Tiptronic issue, you should all direct your attention to the new innovations by Porsche/Weissach.

PTM
VTG and the new PASM

I hope you all start to focus on what's really important about this new Turbo soon.

Sorry to say, Porsche has no innovations there.

Porsche merely adapted to passenger car use what has been
on military and commercial verhicles for some time.

Those classes of vehicles have heavy duty and redundant systems. The 997TT does not.

Good luck getting home~!

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Mar 2, 2006 11:36:44 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: DamienL

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
DamienL said:
Look at Ferrari. I think at least 80% of their cars are ordered with the F1 transmission (correct me if I'm wrong). The Enzo didn't even have a manual gearbox as an option.
There will always be something to be said about the way a manual transmission gives you total control, but I also believe that its days may be limited.

It is closer to 90%.Also, ferrari is on record stating that the ultimate perf. of the car can ONLY be had with a F1 type transmission. The 430 was built with the F1 in mind.

Also, fair warning. I would wager that those that end up buying a Tip. will drive in automatic mode most of the time. The buttons on the wheel are not conducive for daily driving. They are not comfortable to use. I do understand the buttons on the wheel for track work because you can engage them eaiser as you turn compared to the paddles which do not turn with the wheel. However, paddles in daily driving are a blast and I never use the auto mode.

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Mar 2, 2006 11:38:54 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

I give up.
Why do I even divulge information which you dont seem to appreciate and understand.

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Mar 2, 2006 11:51:52 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

I agree that manual is on the way out (look at Ferrari).

With this assumption made CF's original post makes perfect sense:
tip for casual driver
PDK with LSD for sportier driver, assuming it is faster.

Of course, it only makes sense if the PDK is more expensive, else everybody would get the PDK instead of the tip.

Actually I wish Porsche woul release the 997TT ONLY with PDK, concentrate on that gearbox and sportiness even using all the electronic gizmos they want.

Maybe an S version with PDK only and carbon brakes standard!
Make mine a guards red cab

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Mar 3, 2006 12:00:02 AM

RonnieC6Z: Co-Pilot; Loc: california; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:
I give up.
Why do I even divulge information which you dont seem to appreciate and understand.

What a childish attitude you have. In your eyes, Porsche can do no wrong!

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Mar 3, 2006 12:01:24 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: CF

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
CF said:
I give up.
Why do I even divulge information which you dont seem to appreciate and understand.

Don't give up.

People do understand the impact of the changes to the Turbo. Liking them is another matter.

Not all users are technology driven. Some prefer more skill based individual and visceral driving dynamics instead of
depending on lines of code.

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Mar 3, 2006 12:10:41 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: RonnieC6Z

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Quote:
RonnieC6Z said:
Quote:
CF said:
I give up.
Why do I even divulge information which you dont seem to appreciate and understand.

What a childish attitude you have. In your eyes, Porsche can do no wrong!

Dont stink up the joint with personal accusations.

For most of the people here English is a second language with vernacular and nuances they do not know perfectly.

So take a chill pill.

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Mar 3, 2006 12:12:05 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2875, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)

Yeah Ronnie

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