Crown

I am curious about your opinions. Here is my current situation. I used to own a 2003 SMGII M3. Although I owned couple of modded fast cars, this car was my entry to the high performance cars. I loved every minute although I experienced some problems with quality, maybe it was my luck. I still miss it alot. The engine, transmission and overall feel was fantastic.

Then a time came when I traded my M3 for a Carrera 4S Tip. Well that is when this all went wrong. Given we pay alot of tax for these cars, there was not any chance for me for a test drive because of the limited availability and my rush with the trade in deal. I was never able to make a connection with this car. The transmission just took it away from me. Piece of juck (the transmission) period. 5 speed that starts at 2nd and cannot comply with any of my driving characteristics. Many of Tip owners may not share my experiences but when you have all the highways free to speed, you can experience what these cars are all about on daily basis and I must admit I have a heavy right foot:) It is not just like speeding on German autobahns, sometimes you have to make your way through and stuff, anyways it is hard to explain but every drive is pure fun, where on daily basis I can go above %70 percent of these cars limits.

Right now I have a car, which consumes more than 20-21 liters of fuel and  that does not give me any driving pleasure. The car maybe brilliant but I do not like the light front and hate the TipS. Only thing I would miss is the proper sports car feel and perfect brakes (much much better than M3)

It is strange that I miss my M3 dearly, however it is interesting that couple of Carrera owners here also shares the same thing for me. Maybe a M3 is much more suitable for my life. I do not care about brand image of Porsche. Also with these forums, I found a chance to somehow learn about the company and its marketing philosophy and I do not like it. I feel cheated. This is really how I feel.

So to get it altogether:

- The fuel cost is 1.8 € for liter in my country.

- I paid above 180K € for the Porsche. I cannot even sell it for 120K € right now. It will depreciate more once facelift model is more common.

- I cannot get the enjoyment - The facelift model should have been first generation of 997, given they manufactured more than 100000 units, the profit is there, they even bought VW. I hate to be screwed, even if it did happen I do not want this to be shown to my face.

 - Driving conditions for performance driving is available where I live - I spend too much time in traffic and I need some of the amenities.

My decision for ditching the C4S is for sure. I am just not sure if I can in this economical climate. Considering all the things I wrote above, do you think a move back to BMW is logical for me. I would either consider a DKG M3 (140K €)or go low profile and get a 635d (150K €) or something. Any other suggesitons? I am 30 and single if that is a decision factor.
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2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

Reading your post my suggestion would be to think of a 997s (not 4s) with PDK.

 PDK is a HUGE improvement over the Tip in the 997: very fast manual shifts, quick reaction to throttle movements in auto mode and still extremely comfortable (as the old Tip). For drivers that don't want a manual gear-box PDK comes closest to the driving pleasure of a manual car. BTW, the DKG of the new M3 is not in the same league as Porsche's PDK (slow upshifts, poor throttle response at low speeds).

Also, compared to the new M3 the 997s has the (slightly) better steering, (slightly) better suspension and the better brakes. The entire feel of the 997s is much more "Sports car" than you can experience in an M3 (we own an M3, thus I know what I am talking about...). 

The benefits of the M3 are: larger interior (though you don't seem to need a 4 seater), understated looks (it is not a Porsche...), price is very competitive.

In summary, the 997s is the better car. You don't seem to need AWD (4s handles not as well as the RWD 997s) and you would make a huge step forward with Porsche's PDK  

From what I understand you hate your car already.

A car is like a woman, if you go off her and think she is not attractive to you anymore, you are at the point of no return. Walk away from the car.

IMO 4WD and tiptronic are not the best companions for a  Carrera, but this cannot be corrected now. You get lacklustre performance and you are only left with the impracticalities of a small coupe without proper seats at the back and no luggage space.

i think you main problem is the transmission: tiptronic.

i drove a manual, a tiptronic and a pdk: you are right that the Tip is horrible.

Try a manual or (i suggest this even more) the PDK, and all your worries will be over.

PDK is also very fuel efficient.

nick

If you like the M3 you will LOVE the CSL.

If you want to stay with Porsche get a GT3. But it has a lighter front than the C4S.

intouch1:
iam too about to switch from a porsche to a bmw. i am selling my cayenne turbo once my x6 50i arrives....but only until the cayenne turbo 2 is available....however, i am still staying loyal as i am keeping my turbo and gt2 and no bmw ever would get me out of these
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Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

I did not get a chance to drove in a PDK car, however I feel like I do not want to buy another 997.  That would be 2 depreciation hits in a row.  I might consider the next generation and the only Porsche could see myself in is the new cayman S with the updated power, PDK and LSD.

MKSGR:  I think there is a new update for M-DKG that really improves response time from the paddles. I do not know if you this update in your car yet.

AUM:  I am pretty sure I would love the CSL, it would have been awesome if they did not cancel the E92 CSL.  GT Porsches are too raw for our roads which in most places are terrible.  The clutch might also be quite heavy for daily use as well. Commuting is terrible here. RWD Carreras might be lighter at the front however I think they are more predictable than C4s. I constantly have to get alignment in a performance shop, otherwise factory settings are horrible and the car tends to understeer.

reginos:  That truely explains how I feel about my car:) I made a bad start to Porsche ownership.

nick1: I also got a chance to drove a friends Carrera S.

intouch1: My brother recently got a X6 35d and I love it, although it is huge.  I like it better than Cayenne.

2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

Queram:

I did not get a chance to drove in a PDK car, however I feel like I do not want to buy another 997.  That would be 2 depreciation hits in a row.  I might consider the next generation and the only Porsche could see myself in is the new cayman S with the updated power, PDK and LSD.

MKSGR:  I think there is a new update for M-DKG that really improves response time from the paddles. I do not know if you this update in your car yet.

AUM:  I am pretty sure I would love the CSL, it would have been awesome if they did not cancel the E92 CSL.  GT Porsches are too raw for our roads which in most places are terrible.  The clutch might also be quite heavy for daily use as well. Commuting is terrible here. RWD Carreras might be lighter at the front however I think they are more predictable than C4s. I constantly have to get alignment in a performance shop, otherwise factory settings are horrible and the car tends to understeer.

reginos:  That truely explains how I feel about my car:) I made a bad start to Porsche ownership.

nick1: I also got a chance to drove a friends Carrera S.

intouch1: My brother recently got a X6 35d and I love it, although it is huge.  I like it better than Cayenne.

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2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

I have been back and forth between BMW and Porsche for 8 years now:

 330Ci, then Boxster(986), then Boxster S(986), then M3(e46), then X5 4.8is, then 997 C2S.

 IMHO, the best of both worlds would be one of each.

 Pro's to the BMW: better value for the money, comfortable and extremely safe, great trade-in value, fantastic build quality, comes with a ton of options as standard and the BMW dealers provide the best service in the industry.

 Pro's to the Porsche: a blast to drive at high speeds, can make it your own with the variety of options and configuration possibilities, provides a more visceral driving experience

 It was between the M6 and the C2S for me. I don't regret buying the 911 but I am in no way brand loyal. I don't think you can go wrong either way but if cost of ownership is a major concern, I'd go BMW.

By the way, after re-reading your post it sounds like your mind is made up. Go with your gut.

The 635d sounds interesting, i just read a review on it and it impressed them a lot. I have no experience with this new diesel tech but it ssem efficient and to have none of the usual downsides. 

The GT layout is much more relaxing especially for commuting. I have sat in the 6 series gas version. Classy car.

here is the review; http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?mnk=221&description=Page%202&featureid=990&pageid=2412

I have an E46 M3 with SMG and also the TT. I had a 997S.

Porsches are like gloves, they are a tight fit. BMW has more space more "luxury."

On the highway, most cars are going 50, 60, 80 mph. If you want to pass BOTH M3 and 997S have the HP to do the job.

The Carrera can run circles around the M3 on a track. On public roads you can't demonstrate the difference in performance. You can't engage the terrific steering and cornering abilities of the Porsches (unless you drive like a crazy person) so the BMW M3 and the Carrera are "equal" on public roads, IMO.

For me both cars (M3 and 997S) were equal FUN to drive. I took the M3 when I needed space or when I was tired and wanted a bit more comfort.

BTW, FWIW: Since I got the TT the M3 gets used less. The TT's 480hp compared to the M3's 333hp makes the cars very different fun-factor-wise given the constraints on public roads.

MKSGR:

intouch1:
iam too about to switch from a porsche to a bmw. i am selling my cayenne turbo once my x6 50i arrives....but only until the cayenne turbo 2 is available....however, i am still staying loyal as i am keeping my turbo and gt2 and no bmw ever would get me out of these
--
Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

If I am allowed to ask one off-topic question: why do you keep your 997TT? Do you still use the car given you own the GT2 

good and fair question, MKSGR.

in all honesty, my turbo has not been clocking many miles since i received the gt2. however, reasons made me keep my turbo which i had contemplated selling when i ordered my gt2. 1- they are too different in character. i appreciate the daily drivr character of the turbo. the gt2 is far more aggressive and tempting to be used as means of transportation. 2- i plan to ship the gt2 here and there every now and then to get the most joy out of it. it is really overkill for our roads and traffic in egypt.

yet, in all honesty.....the cayenne gets the most seat time. i just hop into it on a daily basis without thinking. i simply grab it's key instead of the two other porsches.....guess that speaks for the cayenne turbo's virtues.

It is interesting that I have a completely opposite opinion (different strokes for different folks?).

I currently own a 997 TT with a TIP, modified to a conservative 650 bhp, plus a 997 GT3RS with full cage and track seats, etc. In the past I have owned 2 997 turbos, one was a TIP and the other was a 6 speed. I have driven the PDK cars quite extensively and I believe they are over-rated - another Porsche fad like DTI. For the power I have in the 997TT, the TIP transmission is much, much stronger than a conventional 6 speed could handle. It also shifts faster than the non-PDK 6 speed. With the proper suspension and alignment, it is much faster at technical tracks than is my GT3RS - granted the RS has lower bhp and torque, but the TT is much heavier. And AWD is more forgiving for me, having raced cars like the IMSA 993 GTS-1 turbos...

I would only consider buying a 997 TT with TIP, especially given the lower prices they are fetching these days.

racerx:

The 635d sounds interesting, i just read a review on it and it impressed them a lot. I have no experience with this new diesel tech but it ssem efficient and to have none of the usual downsides. 

The GT layout is much more relaxing especially for commuting. I have sat in the 6 series gas version. Classy car.

here is the review; http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?mnk=221&description=Page%202&featureid=990&pageid=2412

Actually I am seriously tempted with the idea.  There is a very low mileage premium used one in a BMW dealer that is willing to go cheap.  I might just try and see if it fits the bill.  I know it will not be %100 what I want however considering X6 35d (2200kg) is quite nice and sporty, a 1700kg max 635d could work miracles.  Well anyhow I want to sell my car first so this might take longer.

In general, I love 6 series.  The exterior and interior is a true GT car. I was considering 650i when I was selling my M3 but bought the C4S at the time.  I might try 635d and if it does not work out I can sell it anyways, it will not depreciate as much.   

2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

Queram:

racerx:

The 635d sounds interesting, i just read a review on it and it impressed them a lot. I have no experience with this new diesel tech but it ssem efficient and to have none of the usual downsides. 

The GT layout is much more relaxing especially for commuting. I have sat in the 6 series gas version. Classy car.

here is the review; http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?mnk=221&description=Page%202&featureid=990&pageid=2412

Actually I am seriously tempted with the idea.  There is a very low mileage premium used one in a BMW dealer that is willing to go cheap.  I might just try and see if it fits the bill.  I know it will not be %100 what I want however considering X6 35d (2200kg) is quite nice and sporty, a 1700kg max 635d could work miracles.  Well anyhow I want to sell my car first so this might take longer.

 

In general, I love 6 series.  The exterior and interior is a true GT car. I was considering 650i when I was selling my M3 but bought the C4S at the time.  I might try 635d and if it does not work out I can sell it anyways, it will not depreciate as much.   

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2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

I've read a review of the 635d in Autocar some months ago. The conclusion was that it is the best 6-series and a pity that it won't sell as well as petrol engines because people don't associate diesel with a sports coupe. It is a great tourer for long distances.

You will also have the advantage of better fuel consumption with the 635d and considerable savings because as you mentioned your local fuel prices are very high.

Don't buy a 630i though; not powerful enough for the body judging  from driving some friends' cars.

The current 6 is at the end of its cycle and a new one will come out soon. It is better if you buy used so that you don't suffer the whole depreciation yourself.

reginos:

The current 6 is at the end of its cycle and a new one will come out soon. It is better if you buy used so that you don't suffer the whole depreciation yourself.

Work on new 6er has already began, next month will see more prototype's photos, including Coupe. But still debut is far away, it will be on Frankfurt motorshow in 2011, so its almost 3 years away...

635d is very good choice

Possible options IMO:

BMW

1. Used (cheap) E92 M3
2. Used (cheap) E60 M5
3. Used (cheap) M6
4. E46 M3 CSL - possibly BMW's finest sports car to date... Try one!

... Then put the rest of the money away for your next car.

 Porsche

1. Lightly used Manual Boxster S - this may not have enough power for you.
2. Lightly used but cheap 997 Turbo which you can mod and keep for years. 911s have the engine in the WRONG place and you can feel it, but the TT hides that design flaw very well.

I moved from 996 Turbo to E60 M5 when it first came out.

I did miss Porsche's direct handling feeling where you could feel even the pebbles on the road through the steering wheel and the acceleration of the Turbo engine, however, I emensely enjoyed the 500 horsepower V10 sound in a 4 door saloon M5.

Had a love and hate relationship with SMG, dual charactaristic of the M settings, great audio system and SatNav, much more comfortable suspension and a nice size boot.  Just much more useable compared to 911.

I could also drive and park M5 anywhere and nobody really cared as it was just another Bimmer.  I could always find a reason not to drive the Turbo during ownership, while I could drive the M5 for every occasion.

But, you do not get that special feeling that you get with Porsche and you WILL miss it.

You must be nuts, seriously. Ditching a 997 C4S, even with Tip, for a BMW M3 DKG?

My wife owns the M3 Cab DKG and although this baby is fun, it is no comparison to any 911, even the Boxster S my wife misses so much. The only reason we went for the M3 Cab was simple: our 8 year old daughter doesn't fit in the rear anymore without being uncomfortable.

I badly wanted a 997 Carrera Cab for my wife (and she wanted it too) but it wasn't meant to be. I also drove the M3 Coupe for a couple of times to get a feeling for the M3 before we made the buying decision and although the M3 Couple feels much sportier than the Cab (the Cab weights aprox. 200 kg more than the Coupe), it was still far away from the fun I had with the 997.

You're trying to make a rational decision and I understand you very well. When my first child was born, I sold my 996 Turbo RS Tuning for a Mercedes E55 AMG. I regreted that decision a lot and I also lost a lot of money because I sold the E55 AMG after only 8 months, getting a Cayenne Turbo instead.

Like it or not but Porsche builds emotional cars. The M3 is a great fun car for its price tag but if you're looking for a car with a low fuel consumption, the M3 is the wrong car to look for.

I'm also not quite sure why your C4S eats so much fuel, my 997 Turbo usually consumes around 16-19 liters / 100 km, only if I drive at speeds over 270 kph, I see 22 liters / 100 km go through the injection. 

My suggestion: keep your 997 C4S for another two or three years and go for the 997 successor. Or if you really hate Tiptronic, try to trade it in for a 997 Carrera facelift with PDK.

Good luck with your decision, nobody can really help you. 

I am pretty sure I will miss the sports car feeling, handling, brakes but I believe thats it.  I am saying this because since I bought the car there are many of my posts on various forums including here about Tiptronic and I even sometimes got into conflicts with other users on this matter.  Tiptronic is the only reason why I cannot get emotionally involved with this car.  I even hold myself back about getting a new steering wheel(MFSW is too thin), a PSE or a Europipe package.

What has started with the tiptronic now spreaded too new areas like full Sand Beige interior even with the extenden leather.  There is no contrast so it is too beige.  I like two tone much better.  As you see now I am continuously observing and coming up with excuses about this car.  Fuel consumption comes into play here.  I am not enjoying my daily driver which is drinking fuel.  I am not sure mine consumes that much but I have been told that my car is healthy in the service department where I have taken it there twice.  MAybe it is my driving style which is agressive however this car drinks fuel in stop and go traffic..  I would not care much if I were to be able to enjoy myself.

I even taught about a swap with a manual transmission car but traffic is terrible and I will not be able to sell it for a decade.

2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

Queram:

Fuel consumption comes into play here.  I am not enjoying my daily driver which is drinking fuel.  I am not sure mine consumes that much but I have been told that my car is healthy in the service department where I have taken it there twice.  MAybe it is my driving style which is agressive however this car drinks fuel in stop and go traffic..  I would not care much if I were to be able to enjoy myself. 

--

2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

Regarding fuel consumption I can only confirm what RC posted above: my GT2 has a lower average fuel consumption as our M3...

Also, his idea to switch your Tiptronic version for a PDK version (with black interior ) would probably solve the problems you are having with your car  Of course, the M3 is also nice. However, the 997 feels much more like a sports car than any M3.

Queram:

I am pretty sure I will miss the sports car feeling, handling, brakes but I believe thats it.  I am saying this because since I bought the car there are many of my posts on various forums including here about Tiptronic and I even sometimes got into conflicts with other users on this matter.  Tiptronic is the only reason why I cannot get emotionally involved with this car.  I even hold myself back about getting a new steering wheel(MFSW is too thin), a PSE or a Europipe package.

What has started with the tiptronic now spreaded too new areas like full Sand Beige interior even with the extenden leather.  There is no contrast so it is too beige.  I like two tone much better.  As you see now I am continuously observing and coming up with excuses about this car.  Fuel consumption comes into play here.  I am not enjoying my daily driver which is drinking fuel.  I am not sure mine consumes that much but I have been told that my car is healthy in the service department where I have taken it there twice.  MAybe it is my driving style which is agressive however this car drinks fuel in stop and go traffic..  I would not care much if I were to be able to enjoy myself.

I even taught about a swap with a manual transmission car but traffic is terrible and I will not be able to sell it for a decade.

 

--

2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

Like I said before: you're looking for an excuse to get rid of your Porsche. Thats fine to me but you have to realize that sooner or later, you'll be back. Meaning that it will cost you a lot of additional money. Get a 997 Carrera S facelift with PDK, the 4WD isn't really necessary, the 997 has  a fabulous traction. Even a 997 Carrera with PDK would do it.

Regarding PSE: this adds a lot of fun to the car but if you already started to hate the interior/whatever, it may not really solve your problem.

The M3 is a great car but you can't get too emotional with it. Sooner or later you're going to want a Porsche again, trust me.  

Like I said before: you're looking for an excuse to get rid of your Porsche. Thats fine to me but you have to realize that sooner or later, you'll be back. Meaning that it will cost you a lot of additional money. Get a 997 Carrera S facelift with PDK, the 4WD isn't really necessary, the 997 has  a fabulous traction. Even a 997 Carrera with PDK would do it.

Regarding PSE: this adds a lot of fun to the car but if you already started to hate the interior/whatever, it may not really solve your problem.

The M3 is a great car but you can't get too emotional with it. Sooner or later you're going to want a Porsche again, trust me.  

--
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC,

I know I will be back later like many of you say.  C4S is really unnecessary.  My own domestic market is interesting.  For 996 and 997 it has to be a tiptronic and in C4S trim, otherwise no resale.  However its not my style.  I even go to a special shop to get my cambers adjusted so the car tends to act like a CS rather than understeering C4S.  

M3 is not my definitive choice, its just what I was driving before so its the first thing that came to mind.  I may even go to a powerful limusine for a while and get the next generation Carrera with the sport chasis or GT form as a second car.

I know you guys worry about losing me from Rennteam. I like it here tough just because this site is the most European oriented forum  I like to hang around.  I enjoy being here, logging in many times a day to keep track of the threads. 

2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

Suzuki Burgman AN400

So here are my choices if you want a powerful but not to big limousine:

1. new Audi S4...absolutely a bargain

2. M3 Limousine

3. new Audi RS6

Good luck with your decision but I'm afraid you're going to regret it.

Regarding Tiptronic: why not PDK? It offers an automatic mode too (for resale  ) and a pretty good one.

Or put lightweight wheels, exhaust and coilovers on an M3 and see how it feels. 

And some testers prefer the M3 track feel to the 997 Turbo and GTR. RWD and N/a is lots of fun. 

I don't care too much about "feel", I care about track results. 

Anyway: I doubt it that the M3 feels sportier than a 997 Turbo. The 997 Turbo feels more RWD than any RWD car I drove before, this is why people usually don't like the 997 Turbo setup because they don't expect so much oversteer from a 4WD car.  

The high rev engine of the M3 is also a pain in the a.. below 6000 rpm, I prefer the turbo charged engine of the 997 Turbo or the n/a engine of the 997 GT3/RS.

The M3 has one advantage over any 997: its price tag. I would always prefer the M3 over the Cayman for example, even if the updated Cayman S should give the M3 a run for its money. The M3 Cab was also a pretty interesting alternative to the 997 Cab but to be honest: if the 997 Cab would have had the same rear seat space like the M3, my wife would never had bought the M3.

BMW builds very competitive and price-wise very interesting cars but unfortunately they still lack some of the passion Porsche cars provide. It may change, the new M3 is the right step forward but not enough. 

The OP does seem to care about feel and still misses his e46 M3. He does not like his C4S. I would chose a Turbo or a GT3 over an M3 but maybe the OP has different priorities.  

And it is worth noting (for the benefit of the OP) that some testers prefer the M3 to the Turbo.
--

AUM:

The OP does seem to care about feel and still misses his e46 M3. He does not like his C4S. I would chose a Turbo or a GT3 over an M3 but maybe the OP has different priorities.  

And it is worth noting (for the benefit of the OP) that some testers prefer the M3 to the Turbo.
--

A tester who claims that he prefers the new M3 over the 997 Turbo should have his head checked. The M3 is a great car but it plays in a completely different league.

I can see the new Cayman S and the 997 Carrera/S as competitors for the M3 but not the Turbo.     

RC:

AUM:

The OP does seem to care about feel and still misses his e46 M3. He does not like his C4S. I would chose a Turbo or a GT3 over an M3 but maybe the OP has different priorities.  

And it is worth noting (for the benefit of the OP) that some testers prefer the M3 to the Turbo.
--

The OP also mentioned that the M3 E46 was his entry into the high performance car world, so I guess he may suffer from the "first woman" phenomenon, meaning that he keeps a highly positive memory of this event, even if it may not have been that great.