Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic! - Page3

Mar 2, 2006 11:55:27 AM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003

I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Just went from a Tiptronic Audi to DSG Audi.

I can tell you, the conventional automatic transmission is on deck to become the most outdated and obsolete gearbox on the planet. DSG is amazing.

I'm afraid all of you ordering Tiptonic for a few extra tenths of second straight-line speed will be sorely disappointed once PDK comes out.

Of course, Porsche knows this, which is why they want to sell all of their Tips now!

FWIW...

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Mar 2, 2006 12:33:28 PM

guy2: Junior; Loc: germany; Posts: 149, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2006; Reply to: TX 911

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

which modell from audi do you own now?

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Mar 2, 2006 12:54:19 PM

BD 997: Veteran; Loc: Boston, MA USA; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 16, 2005; Reply to: guy2

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

im confused now... what should I do....

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Mar 2, 2006 1:01:09 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: BD 997

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
BD 997 said:
im confused now... what should I do....

Manual perhaps? Or wait until the PDK comes out.

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Mar 2, 2006 1:08:45 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: TX 911

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
TX 911 said:

I'm afraid all of you ordering Tiptonic for a few extra tenths of second straight-line speed will be sorely disappointed once PDK comes out.

You should have added: "for a few extra tenths of second straight-line speed BELOW 160kph"

(as above 160kph manual is quicker anyhow).

P.S.: I agree 100% with your post - plus any cancelled or unplaced Tip order forces Porsche to introduce PDK asap.

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Mar 2, 2006 1:10:06 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: BD 997

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
BD 997 said:
im confused now... what should I do....

If I were you, I would wait. Manual is too slow (slower even than some competitors today, slower than most competitors in 2-3 years time). No good deal for that kind of money.

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Mar 2, 2006 1:10:27 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: BD 997

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

guy2...it's an A3 3.2

Quote:
BD 997 said:
im confused now... what should I do....

I'm sorry BD...I didn't mean to make an already tough decision more difficult.

I just think people should go into this with an open mind. The PDK will combine the best of automatic and manual, so, in a sense, supercedes both.

But, IMO, it eclipses the Tip even more, because there is nothing a Tip can do that PDK can't. With, the manual, at least you get a little extra level of driving involvement.

Just go with you heart. You could wait for PDK, but, since we don't know how long it will be until PDK is released (do we?), it makes things more difficult.

Overall, I think it sucks that this decision has to made at all. Now, if we were deciding between manual and PDK, that would be OK. I just can't help but think that Porsche has a reason for not releasing PDK yet, because I think the technology is there. Maybe to get rid of tips? I just don't know.

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Mar 2, 2006 1:28:58 PM

Jay: Pilot; Loc: Earth , Eritrea; Posts: 346, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 6, 2002; Reply to: TX 911

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

spend and extra 'x' on PDK and save 10 times 'x' on early depreciation.

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Mar 2, 2006 1:47:18 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3996, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Jay

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
Jay said:
spend and extra 'x' on PDK and save 10 times 'x' on early depreciation.

In the USA, I think you're dreaming, unless you're planning on flipping a very early car for a profit. 3 to 5 year depreciation will hardly be effected.

Only if the PDK is as fast or faster than the Tip will there be any effect at all.

If the PDK comes out between the Tip and 6-speed in performance (my prediction), nothing much will change

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Mar 2, 2006 2:11:03 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: W8MM

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

I suggest trying, if possible, to testdrive a TipS 997TT before rejecting it, the 997TT with TipS is blazingly fast, to me the only question is how it down shifts, and how quick and easy are the gearchanges controlled with the steering wheel-mounted buttons. I suspect that PDK could be even a little faster than TipS (rather than in between TipS and manual), BUT the speed difference will be minor. The key point is that the 997TT-TipS is purportedly entirely different even from the 996TT-TipS, let alone the Tip on other Porsche models and other brands.

Wouldn't you rather see and feel your blind date before rejecting her? You might just regret your hastiness.

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Mar 2, 2006 2:28:03 PM

MattTheCarNut: Pilot; Loc: Austin, Texas; Posts: 329, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 12, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

My friend's new Jetta GLI (Such a fun car!) has DSG transmission. It is so awesome! The shifts in automatic and manual mode are so lightening quick, that the tach looks like it's on crack when it shifts...it's amazing. Shifts in manual mode are 10X faster than Tipronic.

That coolest part is that it rolls backwards on an incline just like a manual.

Would I order it? No. But I'd order it over a tiptronic.

All you Tippy guys, I would wait.

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Mar 2, 2006 2:37:29 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: MattTheCarNut

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

That's it...your tach on crack!

DSG is simply incredible. The shifts are instantaneous. This gearbox cannot be described...it must be experienced.

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Mar 2, 2006 2:37:30 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: TX 911

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
TX 911 said:
Just went from a Tiptronic Audi to DSG Audi.

I can tell you, the conventional automatic transmission is on deck to become the most outdated and obsolete gearbox on the planet. DSG is amazing.

I'm afraid all of you ordering Tiptonic for a few extra tenths of second straight-line speed will be sorely disappointed once PDK comes out.

Of course, Porsche knows this, which is why they want to sell all of their Tips now!

FWIW...

I didn't know the Audi uses the same Tiptronic Porsche uses.

A little hint: testdrive a 997 Carrera/S with Tiptronic and Sport Chrono and then tell me if it is similar to your Audi experience.

And another hint: the Audi Tiptronic and Porsche Tiptronic are not from the same manufacturer/developper. And a last hint: due to the networked CAN system on the new 997 Turbo, the Tiptronic has certain "dynamic" functions which other Tiptronic versions (like the one on the 997 Carrera) don't have.

This is why I said: let Porsche surprise you. If the fact that a Tiptronic equipped 997 Turbo is faster on a tight track than a manual equipped Turbo doesn't give you the last and most important hint, I really don't know what to say anymore.

And a last word to MKSGR: I don't know why you always make the same (false!) claim that the manual 997 Turbo is faster above 100 mph (160 kph). From 0-100 mph and from 0-125 mph, the 997 Turbo with Tiptronic is always 0.6 seconds faster.
Above 125 mph, the manual is only faster by around a second up to top speed and ONLY if you do a perfect shifting.

So please...give us a break, you're not the only one who has wished for more.

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Mar 2, 2006 2:39:18 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

RC...where did I claim that the Audi Tip was the same as Porsche?

All I'm saying is I will never own a car with a conventional automatic after driving with DSG.

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Mar 2, 2006 2:41:11 PM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002; Reply to: TX 911

audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

I own a Audi S4 with slushbox and an Audi 3.2TT DSG. Yesterday, I got about an hour behind the wheel of 997 C4 with tiptronic. I can tell you that the Audi tiptronic and the Porsche tiptronic are not in the same class. The Porsche tiptronic is so much better and is essentially as good as the DSG in street driving. Unless the PDK offers better performance than the Porsche tip (and I'm not sure why it would given all the computer optimization and integration that Porsche has incorporated in the tip turbo) if you don't want to shift manually, I think you'd be very happy with the 997tt tip.

I'm still getting the manual 6 speed, though. Still more fun, IMO.

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Mar 2, 2006 3:03:20 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: TX 911

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
TX 911 said:
RC...where did I claim that the Audi Tip was the same as Porsche?

All I'm saying is I will never own a car with a conventional automatic after driving with DSG.

I drove DSG too, in a Golf. I liked it and it is nice but don't let the conventional "stick" fool you. The new Passat V6 DFI has actually a DSG which looks the same like the Tiptronic, including auto mode, manual mode, etc.
Yes, DSG shifts faster in manual mode (but only by a little margin) and it works much better in auto mode (funny) but let me assure you that the new (not so conventional) 997 Turbo Tiptronic works great since it is part of a very clever networked system. Of course I have to rely on our sources but in the past, they have been very accurate.

And I never heard such high praise for the Tiptronic version of a 911, even if in the past when Tiptronic was introduced on the 996/986 and testdrivers were "told" to praise the Tiptronic.

The reason for the new electronically controlled visco AWD system was actually the advantage of the networked design of all involved parts (engine, turbo chargers, PSM/PTM, AWD, Tiptronic, PASM, etc.). All are communicating with each other in a networked environment, making the Tiptronic experience a much more dynamic one than people are used from automatic trannies. But like I said in some older posts: I can't force people to go against their beliefs and I can't force people to believe me.

Time will tell and everybody has to live with his own decisions.

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Mar 2, 2006 3:13:21 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
Turbo Al said:
I suggest trying, if possible, to testdrive a TipS 997TT before rejecting it, the 997TT with TipS is blazingly fast

Please do not forget: it is fast only up to 160kph. Above that level it is slower than manual.

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Mar 2, 2006 3:17:13 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
TX 911 said:

And a last word to MKSGR: I don't know why you always make the same (false!) claim that the manual 997 Turbo is faster above 100 mph (160 kph). From 0-100 mph and from 0-125 mph, the 997 Turbo with Tiptronic is always 0.6 seconds faster.
Above 125 mph, the manual is only faster by around a second up to top speed and ONLY if you do a perfect shifting.

What is the source of the "1 second difference to top-speed"? I hope that it is not CF's earlier post. Because he agreed that his estimates were wrong...

My guess is: several seconds (maybe five) up to top speed. Simple reason: different gearing.

Buy the Tip, but please do not tell me later that I didn't try to warn you

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Mar 2, 2006 3:17:50 PM

Avantgarde: Senior; Loc: City State; Posts: 708, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
RC said:
A little hint: testdrive a 997 Carrera/S with Tiptronic and Sport Chrono and then tell me if it is similar to your Audi experience. And another hint: the Audi Tiptronic and Porsche Tiptronic are not from the same manufacturer/developper. And a last hint: due to the networked CAN system on the new 997 Turbo, the Tiptronic has certain "dynamic" functions which other Tiptronic versions (like the one on the 997 Carrera) don't have.

Wow, the 997 Carrera indeed has the best tiptronic like no other on this planet

...the 997 turbo's would be a blast

Having driven other tip cars of various makes, the 997 certainly shifts and responds very quickly in between gears like its 'locked' with little or no slip in the torque converter

....that's what I perceive

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Mar 2, 2006 3:21:29 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
I suggest trying, if possible, to testdrive a TipS 997TT before rejecting it, the 997TT with TipS is blazingly fast

Please do not forget: it is fast only up to 160kph. Above that level it is slower than manual.

It actually achieves an identical time as the Turbo from 160 to 200 km/h, but above that, it starts losing ground.
Regarding the Porsche Tiptronic, it's a very good transmission, much better than the Audi's, but it's still an automatic.
I'll say it: AUTOMATIC GEARBOX in a 911???!!!

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Mar 2, 2006 3:30:05 PM

JMShrink: Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 395, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
I suggest trying, if possible, to testdrive a TipS 997TT before rejecting it, the 997TT with TipS is blazingly fast

Please do not forget: it is fast only up to 160kph. Above that level it is slower than manual.

It actually achieves an identical time as the Turbo from 160 to 200 km/h, but above that, it starts losing ground.
Regarding the Porsche Tiptronic, it's a very good transmission, much better than the Audi's, but it's still an automatic.
I'll say it: AUTOMATIC GEARBOX in a 911???!!!

Or how about this: A WATER COOLED ENGINE IN A 911?

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Mar 2, 2006 3:39:50 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
RC said Time will tell and everybody has to live with his own decisions.

Truer words have not been spoken.

But, I'll say again, for those of you who have not driven DSG or similar gearbox...try it out before you go with Tiptronic.

You say Porsche tiptronic better than Audi...no argument here.

If Porsche PDK is also better than Audi DSG...manna from Heaven.

You cannot change the fact that, no matter how optimized, tweaked, refined, and improved the Tiptronic is...it is still a slushbox with a torque converter.

You can try to convince people that PDK will not be much better than the Tiptronic S...I don't believe it. I can hear the same words coming from every Porsche salesman.

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Mar 2, 2006 3:47:15 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Please do not forget: it is fast only up to 160kph. Above that level it is slower than manual.

Sometimes I really wonder if you read my posts.

Again (I can send you a fax if you wish so

): the 997 Turbo Tiptroninc is FASTER than the Manual, even up to 160 kph and even up to 200 kph! From 0-200 kph, the Tiptronic is 0.6 seconds FASTER than manual.

I'm not sure where CF stated that he was wrong with his "estimates" (which btw weren't his "estimates" but claims from Porsche employees

), maybe you could direct me to the post where CF made this statement.

I heard about one second difference (in favor of manual) from 200 to top speed or from standstill to top speed, I don't remember anymore precisely. Sorry.

You are disappointed? Well, so be it. The 997 Turbo is faster than your 996 Turbo S, so I'm not sure what you expected. Carrera GT performance? You got it, buddy. One second faster on the Weissach track...with Tiptronic.

And while you and others are bragging about this and that, I'll enjoy my ride starting this summer. And don't tell me you want one when you "encounter" the first cars on the street, I would only tell you "I told you so".

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Mar 2, 2006 3:54:11 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3996, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
I own a Audi S4 with slushbox and an Audi 3.2TT DSG. Yesterday, I got about an hour behind the wheel of 997 C4 with tiptronic. I can tell you that the Audi tiptronic and the Porsche tiptronic are not in the same class. The Porsche tiptronic is so much better and is essentially as good as the DSG in street driving.

Hip, hip, hooray!

Finally, an actually informed post about tip and DSG

The former, tedious, uninformed, dogmatic speculations really have the cart before the horse. A test drive report from an experienced individual is all it takes!

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Mar 2, 2006 3:54:36 PM

guy2: Junior; Loc: germany; Posts: 149, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

in germany most 996 turbos were sold with tiptronik.
rc do you have concrete numbers?
so there are many people who will be very pleased with the new tiptronik!

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Mar 2, 2006 4:00:35 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Please do not forget: it is fast only up to 160kph. Above that level it is slower than manual.

Sometimes I really wonder if you read my posts.
Again (I can send you a fax if you wish so ): the 997 Turbo Tiptroninc is FASTER than the Manual, even up to 160 kph and even up to 200 kph! From 0-200 kph, the Tiptronic is 0.6 seconds FASTER than manual.

I'm not sure where CF stated that he was wrong with his "estimates" (which btw weren't his "estimates" but claims from Porsche employees ), maybe you could direct me to the post where CF made this statement.

I heard about one second difference (in favor of manual) from 200 to top speed or from standstill to top speed, I don't remember anymore precisely. Sorry.

You are disappointed? Well, so be it. The 997 Turbo is faster than your 996 Turbo S, so I'm not sure what you expected. Carrera GT performance? You got it, buddy. One second faster on the Weissach track...with Tiptronic.

And while you and others are bragging about this and that, I'll enjoy my ride starting this summer. And don't tell me you want one when you "encounter" the first cars on the street, I would only tell you "I told you so".

RC, what MKSGR meant was, that the Tiptronic accelerates faster than the 6-speed only to 160 km/h.
When you look at the 0-160 km/h and 0-200 km/h times, you can see that the difference in times is the same (0.6 seconds), which means that the TipS is no longer faster than the manual after 160 km/h (if we both floor it at 160 km/h, I in a 6-speed and you in a Tip, we'll be tied to 200 km/h).
On another note, I'm glad you're happy with the car you're getting and I hope you can enjoy it as much as possible (but please, no "Scheisse" videos, as was the case with the out-of-control E55

).
Hope to see pictures in May

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Mar 2, 2006 4:19:28 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Quote:
W8MM said:
I own a Audi S4 with slushbox...The Porsche tiptronic is so much better

ummm, the point was not to compare Audi and Porsche, it was to compare tiptronic to DSG/PDK.

everything we know to this point about direct shift gearboxes would suggest that PDK will be better than Tiptronic S.

This would make me wary of getting a Tiptronic with the possibility that it will be an outdated transmission in a year or two.

I'm sure with a little electronic wizardry you can make a Tiptronic shift very quickly, pre-boost, etc. etc.

But it still has a torque converter. I would think the PDK will put more power to the road.

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Mar 2, 2006 4:22:38 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3996, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: TX 911

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Quote:
TX 911 said:
I would think the PDK will put more power to the road.

This sounds educated to say, but just how MUCH more power to the road?

1%?

10%?

50%?

Lets have a precise number so we can talk intelligently.

P.S. Check this link before you answer

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Mar 2, 2006 4:29:39 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Quote:
W8MM said:
Quote:
TX 911 said:
I would think the PDK will put more power to the road.

This sounds educated to say, but just how MUCH more power to the road?

1%?

10%?

50%?

Lets have a precise number so we can talk intelligently.

After 1000rpm the torque converter on the Tiptronic is 100% locked-up, so how can the PDK put "more" power down???
That's why the Tip is faster, after 1000rpm it's fully locked and the shifts are faster than a manual plus it's optimized with the AWD and engine mapping.

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Mar 2, 2006 4:31:05 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: TX 911

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Quote:
TX 911 said:
Quote:
W8MM said:
I own a Audi S4 with slushbox...The Porsche tiptronic is so much better

ummm, the point was not to compare Audi and Porsche, it was to compare tiptronic to DSG/PDK.

everything we know to this point about direct shift gearboxes would suggest that PDK will be better than Tiptronic S.

This would make me wary of getting a Tiptronic with the possibility that it will be an outdated transmission in a year or two.

I'm sure with a little electronic wizardry you can make a Tiptronic shift very quickly, pre-boost, etc. etc.

But it still has a torque converter. I would think the PDK will put more power to the road.

Since it is widely accepted that Porsche is working on its version of the DSK does it not stand to reason that Porsche feels it is an improvement over its present Tiptronic?

If that wasn't the case why would they be developing the sequential transmission?

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Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: I'm begging you...don't order Tiptronic!

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

Re: audi tiptronic v. audi dsg v. porsche tiptronic

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