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Feb 21, 2006 1:51:23 AM
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Turbo Al
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- Loc: Rochester, New York , United States
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- Registered on: Apr 3, 2005
- Reply to: faterikcartman
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Thanks faterikcartman,
To me, the most important statement is the point that when "brake-torquing" the transmission, the updated TipS enables and allows earlier ramp-up of boost pressure and thus increased torque build-up (in addition to reduced shifting and reaction times). This contrasts with the 6-speed manual in which engine boost pressure needs to build after clutch engagement. My questions are:
1. How much different is that from the Bosch-Motronic setup on the 996TT? Was the 996TT-Tippy not sophisticated enough to "pre-boost" the turbos and with the VTG's is that difference also exaggerated?
2. Is there something in the 997TT-Bosch Motronic programming with the AWD/PTM/VTG's that (?unintentionally) doesn't allow the turbo's to "pre-boost" or is it inherent to manual trannies with dual mass flywheels that doesn't allow this-or could the manual tranny be re-programmed to minimize turbo-lag during shift changes that seems to be less problematic in the new Tippy?
3. While clutch- and wheel-slip when launching from standstill to 60mph/100kph might limit manual times, the latter would be less important from 60mph/100kph to 100mph/160kph and to the quarter, yet Tip lengthens its lead over manual. This again suggests that the Tip is "pre-boosting" during gear changes, but the manual is not. I again wonder if the ECU could be programmed better/differently in the manual, or is it impractical? Presumably a sensor would be needed to detect clutch engagement/disengagement to feedback to signal the turbo's to spool. This sounds complicated to say the least. Assuming the new TipS isn't a double clutch tranny but is simply an upgrade on the torque converter model, can we expect if a PDK/PDCS makes it into the 997TT, that accel. times could get even faster?
Comments gents?
To me, the most important statement is the point that when "brake-torquing" the transmission, the updated TipS enables and allows earlier ramp-up of boost pressure and thus increased torque build-up (in addition to reduced shifting and reaction times). This contrasts with the 6-speed manual in which engine boost pressure needs to build after clutch engagement. My questions are:
1. How much different is that from the Bosch-Motronic setup on the 996TT? Was the 996TT-Tippy not sophisticated enough to "pre-boost" the turbos and with the VTG's is that difference also exaggerated?
2. Is there something in the 997TT-Bosch Motronic programming with the AWD/PTM/VTG's that (?unintentionally) doesn't allow the turbo's to "pre-boost" or is it inherent to manual trannies with dual mass flywheels that doesn't allow this-or could the manual tranny be re-programmed to minimize turbo-lag during shift changes that seems to be less problematic in the new Tippy?
3. While clutch- and wheel-slip when launching from standstill to 60mph/100kph might limit manual times, the latter would be less important from 60mph/100kph to 100mph/160kph and to the quarter, yet Tip lengthens its lead over manual. This again suggests that the Tip is "pre-boosting" during gear changes, but the manual is not. I again wonder if the ECU could be programmed better/differently in the manual, or is it impractical? Presumably a sensor would be needed to detect clutch engagement/disengagement to feedback to signal the turbo's to spool. This sounds complicated to say the least. Assuming the new TipS isn't a double clutch tranny but is simply an upgrade on the torque converter model, can we expect if a PDK/PDCS makes it into the 997TT, that accel. times could get even faster?
Comments gents?
Feb 21, 2006 2:29:36 AM
- faterikcartman
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- Loc: SoCal USA
- Posts: 17, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 17, 2006
- Reply to: Turbo Al
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
Thanks faterikcartman,
To me, the most important statement is the point that when "brake-torquing" the transmission, the updated TipS enables and allows earlier ramp-up of boost pressure and thus increased torque build-up (in addition to reduced shifting and reaction times). This contrasts with the 6-speed manual in which engine boost pressure needs to build after clutch engagement. My questions are:
1. How much different is that from the Bosch-Motronic setup on the 996TT? Was the 996TT-Tippy not sophisticated enough to "pre-boost" the turbos and with the VTG's is that difference also exaggerated?
2. Is there something in the 997TT-Bosch Motronic programming with the AWD/PTM/VTG's that (?unintentionally) doesn't allow the turbo's to "pre-boost" or is it inherent to manual trannies with dual mass flywheels that doesn't allow this-or could the manual tranny be re-programmed to minimize turbo-lag during shift changes that seems to be less problematic in the new Tippy?
3. While clutch- and wheel-slip when launching from standstill to 60mph/100kph might limit manual times, the latter would be less important from 60mph/100kph to 100mph/160kph and to the quarter, yet Tip lengthens its lead over manual. This again suggests that the Tip is "pre-boosting" during gear changes, but the manual is not. I again wonder if the ECU could be programmed better/differently in the manual, or is it impractical? Presumably a sensor would be needed to detect clutch engagement/disengagement to feedback to signal the turbo's to spool. This sounds complicated to say the least. Assuming the new TipS isn't a double clutch tranny but is simply an upgrade on the torque converter model, can we expect if a PDK/PDCS makes it into the 997TT, that accel. times could get even faster?
Comments gents?
You made me think about the technique of hitting the gas and brakes at the same time to keep the rpm's up and not lose boost pressure; when (already?) will Porsche program the car to keep boost pressure up while braking into turns?
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
Assuming the new TipS isn't a double clutch tranny but is simply an upgrade on the torque converter model, can we expect if a PDK/PDCS makes it into the 997TT, that accel. times could get even faster?
Comments gents?
I think it would be very difficult to "brake torque" without using a torque converter. My guess is the Tip will remain slightly faster than any PDK/DSG implementation when talking about straight-line numbers.
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Usually, brake torque starts cause the rear wheels to spin while the front brakes hold the car stopped. How can you do this with AWD?
Are you talking about just putting the engine under load with the gas while all four wheels are stopped? I guess that would produce a better start.
My thinking is that the Tip will be better for drag racing (for this reason and since you won't need to replace the clutch with this kind of abuse), but I think the 6-speed will provide much more enjoyment for people who like every other aspect of driving, besides drag racing...
Are you talking about just putting the engine under load with the gas while all four wheels are stopped? I guess that would produce a better start.
My thinking is that the Tip will be better for drag racing (for this reason and since you won't need to replace the clutch with this kind of abuse), but I think the 6-speed will provide much more enjoyment for people who like every other aspect of driving, besides drag racing...
Feb 21, 2006 7:31:32 AM
- turbolite
- Veteran
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- Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland
- Posts: 1012, Gallery
- Registered on: Jul 26, 2004
- Reply to: faterikcartman
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Quote:
faterikcartman said:Quote:
Turbo Al said:
Thanks faterikcartman,
To me, the most important statement is the point that when "brake-torquing" the transmission, the updated TipS enables and allows earlier ramp-up of boost pressure and thus increased torque build-up (in addition to reduced shifting and reaction times). This contrasts with the 6-speed manual in which engine boost pressure needs to build after clutch engagement. My questions are:
1. How much different is that from the Bosch-Motronic setup on the 996TT? Was the 996TT-Tippy not sophisticated enough to "pre-boost" the turbos and with the VTG's is that difference also exaggerated?
2. Is there something in the 997TT-Bosch Motronic programming with the AWD/PTM/VTG's that (?unintentionally) doesn't allow the turbo's to "pre-boost" or is it inherent to manual trannies with dual mass flywheels that doesn't allow this-or could the manual tranny be re-programmed to minimize turbo-lag during shift changes that seems to be less problematic in the new Tippy?
3. While clutch- and wheel-slip when launching from standstill to 60mph/100kph might limit manual times, the latter would be less important from 60mph/100kph to 100mph/160kph and to the quarter, yet Tip lengthens its lead over manual. This again suggests that the Tip is "pre-boosting" during gear changes, but the manual is not. I again wonder if the ECU could be programmed better/differently in the manual, or is it impractical? Presumably a sensor would be needed to detect clutch engagement/disengagement to feedback to signal the turbo's to spool. This sounds complicated to say the least. Assuming the new TipS isn't a double clutch tranny but is simply an upgrade on the torque converter model, can we expect if a PDK/PDCS makes it into the 997TT, that accel. times could get even faster?
Comments gents?
You made me think about the technique of hitting the gas and brakes at the same time to keep the rpm's up and not lose boost pressure; when (already?) will Porsche program the car to keep boost pressure up while braking into turns?
Hi Al
I'm pretty confident the PDK would be faster than the new tip. reason beiing that there is no converter which inherently uses up energy and the gearchanges happen without the rev coming down again. so if you are on full acceleration with the turbos pumping they will not loose any revs during the shift unlike a manual shift. so there is no need to 'preboost' like with the tip. and unlike the manual where i dont think preboosting is possible at all, this can only be done in a 'prearranged' shifting environment like the tip or PDK (where u dont need it though). the loss of pressure in the turbos and revs are the reason why a manual is so obsolete IMO. One tries to get every extra horsepower tuning the car but then looses some tenths on every gearchange! think of the GT3rs beiing faster than the tt, that's amazing and I'm sure that 0.5 seconds of that extraperformance to 160kmh come from the PDK!
If there is anyone with a scanner, could he kindly post the comparison from sportauto a couple of months ago of the edo competition and the donky record runs?? thanks!!looking at the acceleration diagrams there it becomes so clear what a loss of performance the manual causes!! totally inacceptable in a car which defines itself over performance!!
btw: PDK would be lighter than the tip.
cheers
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Quote:
turbolite said:
I'm pretty confident the PDK would be faster than the new tip. reason beiing that there is no converter which inherently uses up energy and the gearchanges happen without the rev coming down again. so if you are on full acceleration with the turbos pumping they will not loose any revs during the shift unlike a manual shift. so there is no need to 'preboost' like with the tip. and unlike the manual where i dont think preboosting is possible at all, this can only be done in a 'prearranged' shifting environment like the tip or PDK (where u dont need it though). the loss of pressure in the turbos and revs are the reason why a manual is so obsolete IMO. One tries to get every extra horsepower tuning the car but then looses some tenths on every gearchange! think of the GT3rs beiing faster than the tt, that's amazing and I'm sure that 0.5 seconds of that extraperformance to 160kmh come from the PDK!
cheers
Turbolite,
Yes, that is one reason I hope PDK makes it to the 997TT, either as an option in the near future or as part of the "S." I would think that the double clutch setup would add at least a couple tenths of a second over the torque converter, especially when accelerating 0-100mph/160kph, with at least 2 or 3 gear changes required. I hope those rumours of no PDK on the 997TT are wrong.
Plus with the downshifting ability of the PDK/PDCS, and ideally with a LSD, some of the drawbacks of Tip would be avoided.
I'll simply have to hold on to my 996TTS with its "out-moded" 6-speed manual, rather than trade it in: BTW, the 600HP upgrade on the 996TTS is finished, I pick her up from my mechanic this Thursday.
I had him install a Sachs GT-1 level 2 clutch to handle the 850+Nm torque. He "tested" it and his quote was: "That car is f------ sick fast!" 
Can't wait for some warmer weather with good traction so I can push it. 
So my 997TT hopefully would be: TCab with PCCB, PDK, Sports Chrono Turbo with overboost, LSD. ? by 2007 or 2008.
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
My dealer told me yesterday "If you want the most driving pleasure get the manual, fastest acceleration TipS (but you will not notice it unless in a drag race), and in regards to the PDK or SMG style Trannies (they have a tendancy to shift like Mario Andretti and most people dont want to shift like that all the time and feel their heads snap back with every gear change)" Any thoughts?
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Quote:
rhino said:
My dealer told me yesterday "If you want the most driving pleasure get the manual, fastest acceleration TipS (but you will not notice it unless in a drag race), and in regards to the PDK or SMG style Trannies (they have a tendancy to shift like Mario Andretti and most people dont want to shift like that all the time and feel their heads snap back with every gear change)" Any thoughts?
Actually, I enjoy the parabolic (non-linear) torque curve of the KKK turbo's and resultant whiplash effect when flooring the throttle revving the engine from 2,000-5,000rpms.
And the woooooWOOOOO sound as the turbo's spool up sounds cool too. I bet a Porsche PDK would be relatively smooth between gear changes. As a comparison, I remember my father's old 1964 Merc 250S auto tranny used to clunk so hard, it felt like a novice manual driver.
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
Quote:
rhino said:
My dealer told me yesterday "If you want the most driving pleasure get the manual, fastest acceleration TipS (but you will not notice it unless in a drag race), and in regards to the PDK or SMG style Trannies (they have a tendancy to shift like Mario Andretti and most people dont want to shift like that all the time and feel their heads snap back with every gear change)" Any thoughts?
sorry, your dealer hasnt got a clue, those guys are all useless. no wonder carsales guys have a bad reputation..
DSG doesnt lead to head snapback because there is no thrust interruption!
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
I went to the local porsche dealer today..and much to my surprise he told me that a fully loaded 911 turbo is estimated to come in @ $173,000 and that the base model was $120,000. what is also surprising to me is that he says that ceramic brakes aren't standard!!! He got me confused so i decided to come to you guys for info....do you know how much the Turbo costs???
Re: Discuss the Official 997 Turbo Pictures and Info HERE
There are countless posts re: price. U.S. $122,900.00 base. Ceramic brakes are an option; about $10k. Full leather, Bose, dimming mirrors, Nav., Xenon lights, are standard. Sports chrono plus: must have option; $1800.00+. Nicely equipped about $130,000.00 give or take.
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