Crown

Hybrids will be mostly obsolete "soon" i.e. 6 to 10 years.

After reading Luke report and English enthusiasm, it only confirms the trend, I might have bought my last non EV daily driver... With the arrival of Gen 3 Tesla knows they need to deliver better interiors in S and X models to differentiate.

Excellent report and coming from someone who owns a Porsche makes it even more valuable.

A friend of mine who is a diehard car fan drove a i3 and phoned me saying he was blown away by it. I joke and said that what he liked most must have been the amazing engine sound, he laught and said I got to drive the thing because it is really amazing. He has a Porsche 930 Targa with turbo body, 2017 Volvo S90  old RR V8 and 2014 BMW X3 for the wife so he has an ideia of what is talking about. 

J.Seven

SciFrog:

Hybrids will be mostly obsolete "soon" i.e. 6 to 10 years.

 

The only problem: this view is totally inconsistent with all insider's view (in the established car industry)... Of course, they may all be wrong. Unlikely though...

So if someone is religiously charging their electric car to top it off every day, and their daily range is less than 50km, what's wrong with choosing the Panamera Turbo S with the 50km electric range and then plug it in every night?

All hybrids can be driven in pure electric mode, and a hybrid can be plugged in to charge too. Just like pure electric cars.

For myself, because I lived in the city, 50km is plenty enough for my daily usage, hell even 30km is good enough. I could make a tank of gas in the Panamera Turbo S last forever. For longer trips, say if I head to Whistler, then I can open up the car and use the gas engine for the spirited drive and back and use it like a normal car.

Isn't performance hybrids the best of both world right now?

MKSGR:

The only problem: this view is totally inconsistent with all insider's view (in the established car industry)... Of course, they may all be wrong. Unlikely though...

Oh yes, they can be wrong. Secret code: Nokia.

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

Whoopsy:

So if someone is religiously charging their electric car to top it off every day, and their daily range is less than 50km, what's wrong with choosing the Panamera Turbo S with the 50km electric range and then plug it in every night?

All hybrids can be driven in pure electric mode, and a hybrid can be plugged in to charge too. Just like pure electric cars.

For myself, because I lived in the city, 50km is plenty enough for my daily usage, hell even 30km is good enough. I could make a tank of gas in the Panamera Turbo S last forever. For longer trips, say if I head to Whistler, then I can open up the car and use the gas engine for the spirited drive and back and use it like a normal car.

Isn't performance hybrids the best of both world right now?

 

That's a dream combination in my opinion. Drive daily in pure electric mode and drive sporty on curvy roads, autobahn or wherever and whenever you want to enjoy the sound of the glorious V8 and going through the gears.

There will always be sport cars powered by a combustion engine, no matter if every other car has changed to EV. It's just a difference experience, a lifestyle.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a32609/all-mclarens-will-be-hybrids-by-2025/

Wonderful write-up! Thank you for sharing your impressions 

Whoopsy:

So if someone is religiously charging their electric car to top it off every day, and their daily range is less than 50km, what's wrong with choosing the Panamera Turbo S with the 50km electric range and then plug it in every night?

All hybrids can be driven in pure electric mode, and a hybrid can be plugged in to charge too. Just like pure electric cars.

For myself, because I lived in the city, 50km is plenty enough for my daily usage, hell even 30km is good enough. I could make a tank of gas in the Panamera Turbo S last forever. For longer trips, say if I head to Whistler, then I can open up the car and use the gas engine for the spirited drive and back and use it like a normal car.

Isn't performance hybrids the best of both world right now?

 

Who ever said there is something wrong with it? 

Whoopsy:

So if someone is religiously charging their electric car to top it off every day, and their daily range is less than 50km, what's wrong with choosing the Panamera Turbo S with the 50km electric range and then plug it in every night?

All hybrids can be driven in pure electric mode, and a hybrid can be plugged in to charge too. Just like pure electric cars.

For myself, because I lived in the city, 50km is plenty enough for my daily usage, hell even 30km is good enough. I could make a tank of gas in the Panamera Turbo S last forever. For longer trips, say if I head to Whistler, then I can open up the car and use the gas engine for the spirited drive and back and use it like a normal car.

Isn't performance hybrids the best of both world right now?

 

Weight, price and trunk space are the issues.

MKSGR:

SciFrog:

Hybrids will be mostly obsolete "soon" i.e. 6 to 10 years.

 

The only problem: this view is totally inconsistent with all insider's view (in the established car industry)... Of course, they may all be wrong. Unlikely though...

They also said Musk could not build the car he did...

MKSGR:

SciFrog:

Hybrids will be mostly obsolete "soon" i.e. 6 to 10 years.

 

The only problem: this view is totally inconsistent with all insider's view (in the established car industry)... Of course, they may all be wrong. Unlikely though...

Insiders are often wrong, especially the old guard.

6 years is definitely too soon for hybrids to be obsolete, but 10 years is definitely a possibility.

At least for sports cars, hybrid is the best from both worlds. Reason: sound or the lack of it.

Lighter batteries is mandatory of course...

Milanno:

MKSGR:

The only problem: this view is totally inconsistent with all insider's view (in the established car industry)... Of course, they may all be wrong. Unlikely though...

Oh yes, they can be wrong. Secret code: Nokia.

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

I've heard that the batteri pack in the Tesla don't last so long. Numerous changes in a cars lifetime and all on the manufactures cost. Hopefully Musks money last for the years comming for the sake of all current testa owners....

i once drove the Panamera hybrid and my personal view is that the only electric car I will drive is on the golf course... But then I am trouly a dinosaur in this matters 

My new diesel is scheduled for a weekend 14 built, But the delay from the planed December delivery is going to be troublesome due to the fact that it will arrive at the same time as when I will have to break in the new motor in the GT3 in time for the track season This is of course what we call a "Ferrari problem" and hopefully I can cope and the world survive.....

MKSGR:

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Of course the traditional car manufacturers speak positive about Hybrids. It would be madness otherwise. They must sell something the coming 5 years and hybrids are their only option since they can squeeze that into existing platforms. Unfortunately by adding weight and decrease luggage capacity.

And also, why do the traditional car manufacturers invest boot loads of money in their future full EV platforms if they don't believe in the tech? Would't they instead skip that full EV-train and put full focus on hybrids if that was the future  

lukestern:

MKSGR:

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

 

Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Of course the traditional car manufacturers speak positive about Hybrids. It would be madness otherwise. They must sell something the coming 5 years and hybrids are their only option since they can squeeze that into existing platforms. Unfortunately by adding weight and decrease luggage capacity.

And also, why do the traditional car manufacturers invest boot loads of money in their future full EV platforms if they don't believe in the tech? Would't they instead skip that full EV-train and put full focus on hybrids if that was the future  

To date, most OEM investments have been into hybrid strategies. Also, don't forget that it would be easy for the OEMs to build fully electrical cars. Actually, some of them did (BMW etc.) and the success has been very limited so far as customers just don't buy these electrical cars... 

It is very simple: the traditional OEMs could easily build fully electrical if the market asked for it. Tesla, however, can build nothing but fully electrical. This shows you who will win the game 

MKSGR:

lukestern:

MKSGR:

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

 

Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Of course the traditional car manufacturers speak positive about Hybrids. It would be madness otherwise. They must sell something the coming 5 years and hybrids are their only option since they can squeeze that into existing platforms. Unfortunately by adding weight and decrease luggage capacity.

And also, why do the traditional car manufacturers invest boot loads of money in their future full EV platforms if they don't believe in the tech? Would't they instead skip that full EV-train and put full focus on hybrids if that was the future  

To date, most OEM investments have been into hybrid strategies. Also, don't forget that it would be easy for the OEMs to build fully electrical cars. Actually, some of them did (BMW etc.) and the success has been very limited so far as customers just don't buy these electrical cars... 

It is very simple: the traditional OEMs could easily build fully electrical if the market asked for it. Tesla, however, can build nothing but fully electrical. This shows you who will win the game 

Of course BMW i3 don't sell because 1. It does not have enough range 2. it's a small city car 3.There is no valid charging infrastructure.

"If the market asks for it". How can you explain 400k pre-orders of Tesla Model 3? That I call demand from customers if anything.... I can bet that the other car manufacturers wan't a piece of that cake.

Problem is if Tesla can deliver or not, but saying that the demand is not there 

MKSGR:

lukestern:

MKSGR:

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

 

Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Of course the traditional car manufacturers speak positive about Hybrids. It would be madness otherwise. They must sell something the coming 5 years and hybrids are their only option since they can squeeze that into existing platforms. Unfortunately by adding weight and decrease luggage capacity.

And also, why do the traditional car manufacturers invest boot loads of money in their future full EV platforms if they don't believe in the tech? Would't they instead skip that full EV-train and put full focus on hybrids if that was the future  

To date, most OEM investments have been into hybrid strategies. Also, don't forget that it would be easy for the OEMs to build fully electrical cars. Actually, some of them did (BMW etc.) and the success has been very limited so far as customers just don't buy these electrical cars... 

It is very simple: the traditional OEMs could easily build fully electrical if the market asked for it. Tesla, however, can build nothing but fully electrical. This shows you who will win the game 

In fact it stands to reason that once electric cars become practical enough for mainstream, Tesla will be out of business as I doubt they will be able to compete with the huge manufacturer's resources, infrastructure, experience, R&D, etc. and their products. So Tesla should be grateful that the market is not there yet.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

MKSGR:

lukestern:

MKSGR:

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

 

Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Of course the traditional car manufacturers speak positive about Hybrids. It would be madness otherwise. They must sell something the coming 5 years and hybrids are their only option since they can squeeze that into existing platforms. Unfortunately by adding weight and decrease luggage capacity.

And also, why do the traditional car manufacturers invest boot loads of money in their future full EV platforms if they don't believe in the tech? Would't they instead skip that full EV-train and put full focus on hybrids if that was the future  

To date, most OEM investments have been into hybrid strategies. Also, don't forget that it would be easy for the OEMs to build fully electrical cars. Actually, some of them did (BMW etc.) and the success has been very limited so far as customers just don't buy these electrical cars... 

It is very simple: the traditional OEMs could easily build fully electrical if the market asked for it. Tesla, however, can build nothing but fully electrical. This shows you who will win the game 

In fact it stands to reason that once electric cars become practical enough for mainstream, Tesla will be out of business as I doubt they will be able to compete with the huge manufacturer's resources, infrastructure, experience, R&D, etc. and their products. So Tesla should be grateful that the market is not there yet.

I don't care about Tesla per say and have no interest in the company, but saying that they're out of business in a few years is just crazy. I don't understand why would anyone wish them bad luck? I think in general this is strange and just imply that Tesla is onto something that is a threat to the traditionalists. If they weren't it would not have created those emotions.

Teslas charging infrastructure is in place (and growing) and they sold 80k cars 2016. Take a look at the gigafactory that is now up and running and at what stage in development the Model 3 is and how many pre-orders they have. Isn't that an advantage? How do you mean that e.g. VW group has an advantage in R&D when it comes to charging infrastructure and building EV-plaftorms? Tesla is behind still with manufacturing speed, but they catch up each month and are very efficient right now delivering Model S/X.

Actually, I believe the traditional car manufacturers will have a hard time just like Nokia and Ericsson had back in the days. The traditional car manufacturers have a lot of structural legacy that just is a hurdle. Just look at the much simpler business model Tesla have invented by selling directly to consumers. The software platform is also something that the others can dream about right now. Brilliant and efficient!

I find this whole discussion very interesting.

My wife has driven a Tesla Model S as her daily driver for the last 5 years.  It's very convenient to never stop to refuel.  We "gas up" at night just like a cell phone.  There are zero problems in daily use because we have other vehicles if we want to travel long distances.  In fact, it's sort of silly.  We use longer distance travel to break in new Porsches before I can take them to the track 

I would also be a Tesla Model S driver if I didn't need to occasionally drive to Chicago or Cleveland from Cincinnati, something I prefer to accomplish without stopping.  Since I'm a 1%er, I can drive anything I wish and I am very excited to see what Porsche has up their sleeve for Mission E.

In the mean time, I am all in on a 2017/18 Panamera Turbo S hybrid.  As Whoopsy points out, I may be able to use it almost totally in electric mode in my daily travels.  Cutting down on gas stops would thrill me to no end.  The 918 doesn't have enough energy storage to go very far on pure electric, but it will get to the edge of town without startling the neighbors.  The Panamera Turbo S should go 4 to 5 times as far on a charge.

Interestingly, my Porsche dealer has heard some rumblings about a special lease deal on Panamera hybrids that would include pre-ordering a Mission E and having the lease terminate as soon as the Mission E was delivered.  I'm tempted.

Mike

918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

lukestern:

Carlos from Spain:

MKSGR:

lukestern:

MKSGR:

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

 

Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Of course the traditional car manufacturers speak positive about Hybrids. It would be madness otherwise. They must sell something the coming 5 years and hybrids are their only option since they can squeeze that into existing platforms. Unfortunately by adding weight and decrease luggage capacity.

And also, why do the traditional car manufacturers invest boot loads of money in their future full EV platforms if they don't believe in the tech? Would't they instead skip that full EV-train and put full focus on hybrids if that was the future  

To date, most OEM investments have been into hybrid strategies. Also, don't forget that it would be easy for the OEMs to build fully electrical cars. Actually, some of them did (BMW etc.) and the success has been very limited so far as customers just don't buy these electrical cars... 

It is very simple: the traditional OEMs could easily build fully electrical if the market asked for it. Tesla, however, can build nothing but fully electrical. This shows you who will win the game 

In fact it stands to reason that once electric cars become practical enough for mainstream, Tesla will be out of business as I doubt they will be able to compete with the huge manufacturer's resources, infrastructure, experience, R&D, etc. and their products. So Tesla should be grateful that the market is not there yet.

I don't care about Tesla per say and have no interest in the company, but saying that they're out of business in a few years is just crazy. I don't understand why would anyone wish them bad luck?

Woa, hold them horses!... Wish them bad luck? Where the hell does it say i wish them to go out of business? I just stated that when the big car companies decide to go into the EV market, Tesla will have a lot of difficulty to compete anymore as time goes by and they are likely to either disappear or get bought and absorved. Thats all.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

lukestern:

Carlos from Spain:

MKSGR:

lukestern:

MKSGR:

For them being right, however, there are thousands of examples. So chances are clearly against fully electrics... If I was  you I would not buy Tesla stock - will be a bad investment.

 

Can you elaborate a bit more about this? Of course the traditional car manufacturers speak positive about Hybrids. It would be madness otherwise. They must sell something the coming 5 years and hybrids are their only option since they can squeeze that into existing platforms. Unfortunately by adding weight and decrease luggage capacity.

And also, why do the traditional car manufacturers invest boot loads of money in their future full EV platforms if they don't believe in the tech? Would't they instead skip that full EV-train and put full focus on hybrids if that was the future  

To date, most OEM investments have been into hybrid strategies. Also, don't forget that it would be easy for the OEMs to build fully electrical cars. Actually, some of them did (BMW etc.) and the success has been very limited so far as customers just don't buy these electrical cars... 

It is very simple: the traditional OEMs could easily build fully electrical if the market asked for it. Tesla, however, can build nothing but fully electrical. This shows you who will win the game 

In fact it stands to reason that once electric cars become practical enough for mainstream, Tesla will be out of business as I doubt they will be able to compete with the huge manufacturer's resources, infrastructure, experience, R&D, etc. and their products. So Tesla should be grateful that the market is not there yet.

I don't care about Tesla per say and have no interest in the company, but saying that they're out of business in a few years is just crazy. I don't understand why would anyone wish them bad luck?

Woa, hold them horses!... Wish them bad luck? Where the hell does it say i wish them to go out of business? I just stated that when the big car companies decide to go into the EV market, Tesla will have a lot of difficulty to compete anymore as time goes by and they are likely to either disappear or get bought and absorved. Thats all.

Why focus on just that part of my comment? If you read again I didn't say particularly that you wish them out of business. I said that it is crazy to make that statement. Which I think given what they have achieved, proven and delivered so far.  My appologies if I misinterpreted that comment from you 

But time will tell and as a car customer that gladly jump between brands depending on their offering I'm with interest looking forward to the different  alternatives to be launched the coming years. And to be a bit more on topic I'm looking forward to see what the Panamera Turbo S has to offer in terms of specs and if Porsche can improve the driving dynamics regardless of the increased weight. Would be bad press if it handles worse than the standard Turbo.

Could we start a new thread about the future of EV.

To answer the last question:

Turbo 0-100 km/h 3,6 s, max speed 306 km/h

Turbo S 0-100 km/h 3,5 s, max speed 310 km/h (from my memories)

AM

ALDO:

Could we start a new thread about the future of EV.

or the discussion of Tesla will be banned from Rennteam

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

This is really a funny bunch.

Raise the range by 50%, reduce charge times by half and battery weight by 30% and finally the battery price by half and you can say goodbye to mainstream combustion AND hybrid cars. Many skeptics around but the progress of the last 10 year has been much better than these metrics. Why people dont see this is beyond me.

Of course there will still be a good number of applications for combustion engines like German autobahn and people driving for very long distances in rural areas and maybe the top segment of the sports cars. But the masses will go electric. Look at LED bulbs vs incandescent, LED are now cheaper, last 10 times longer and use 10 times less energy... Prgress marches on. We are a couple of breakthrough away from a car revolution in a field where billions are spent in R&D. The only reason we aren't further is the reluctance of old guard car manufacturers to move beyond what they already have. That has already changed.

SciFrog:

This is really a funny bunch.

Raise the range by 50%, reduce charge times by half and battery weight by 30% and finally the battery price by half and you can say goodbye to mainstream combustion AND hybrid cars. Many skeptics around but the progress of the last 10 year has been much better than these metrics. Why people dont see this is beyond me.

Of course there will still be a good number of applications for combustion engines like German autobahn and people driving for very long distances in rural areas and maybe the top segment of the sports cars. But the masses will go electric. Look at LED bulbs vs incandescent, LED are now cheaper, last 10 times longer and use 10 times less energy... Prgress marches on. We are a couple of breakthrough away from a car revolution in a field where billions are spent in R&D. The only reason we aren't further is the reluctance of old guard car manufacturers to move beyond what they already have. That has already changed.

You have missed out one major metric which is price. The top of the range Model S in the U.K. Is well over £100k. It doesn't look like,smell like, feel like, or handle like a car at that price should. In fact it's ludicrous .

crayphile:

SciFrog:

This is really a funny bunch.

Raise the range by 50%, reduce charge times by half and battery weight by 30% and finally the battery price by half and you can say goodbye to mainstream combustion AND hybrid cars. Many skeptics around but the progress of the last 10 year has been much better than these metrics. Why people dont see this is beyond me.

Of course there will still be a good number of applications for combustion engines like German autobahn and people driving for very long distances in rural areas and maybe the top segment of the sports cars. But the masses will go electric. Look at LED bulbs vs incandescent, LED are now cheaper, last 10 times longer and use 10 times less energy... Prgress marches on. We are a couple of breakthrough away from a car revolution in a field where billions are spent in R&D. The only reason we aren't further is the reluctance of old guard car manufacturers to move beyond what they already have. That has already changed.

You have missed out one major metric which is price. The top of the range Model S in the U.K. Is well over £100k. It doesn't look like,smell like, feel like, or handle like a car at that price should. In fact it's ludicrous .

Hmm, that's why the top of the range Model S have a Ludicrous mode! 

Carlos:

 

Of course BMW i3 don't sell because 1. It does not have enough range 2. it's a small city car 3.There is no valid charging infrastructure.

"If the market asks for it". How can you explain 400k pre-orders of Tesla Model 3? That I call demand from customers if anything.... I can bet that the other car manufacturers wan't a piece of that cake.

Problem is if Tesla can deliver or not, but saying that the demand is not there 

Carlos what is the range on the i3 ?

J.Seven

J.Seven:

Carlos:

 

Of course BMW i3 don't sell because 1. It does not have enough range 2. it's a small city car 3.There is no valid charging infrastructure.

"If the market asks for it". How can you explain 400k pre-orders of Tesla Model 3? That I call demand from customers if anything.... I can bet that the other car manufacturers wan't a piece of that cake.

Problem is if Tesla can deliver or not, but saying that the demand is not there 

Carlos what is the range on the i3 ?

Hi J. That was actually luke's post but somehow my name appeared in the quote, I wouldn't know about the range of the i3, hopefully someone else here knows 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS