Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Sportscar Philosophy - Page3

Feb 28, 2006 12:06:05 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3995, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: TX 911

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
TX 911 said:
I would think a lot of the satisfaction of a 6spd is the fact that it is more challenging to drive well. Sure, if all the actions of driving were taken over by a computer, you could drive around a track or whatever in perfect precision and maximum speed every time.

...but, if that were the case, would you want to?

If Porsche continues to insist that only the Teo Fabis of this world may be allowed enough pedal box room to operate at high efficiency, then the answer is a resounding YES!!!!!

If, on the other hand, the console delete option (foot room saving device) were available on the TT, then I might be able to operate a 6-speed with the required grace.

Get a grip man, not everybody that buys a Porsche is 5'5" in height!

Why restrict enjoyment of the 6-speed to the lower quartile of stature?

BTW, I have a short shift kit installed in my TT Cab and it does nothing for the length of my legs nor the size of my feet.

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Feb 28, 2006 12:33:18 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
rhino said:
I don't think they are forgetting how to build a good manual, but as engines are becoming so advanced the six speed is becoming obsolete...?

This has nothing to do with advanced engines. The problem is that everybody wants to be Schumacher without putting in the effort and the factories gladly oblige, by making auto trannies (yes, F1 and SMG included), which are faster shifting than a 6-speed. It sells, that's all.
Why do we make babies the old-fashioned way, when we could do it artificially?
Same question applies to handling a "stick" ( ).

I am not sure I agree with your comment. We are talking about performance here, and if a transmission provides better performance (quicker shifts), why not exploit that system. I am sure Mr. Schumacher never says the enjoyment factor is missing from this type of tranny lets go for the "stick".

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Feb 28, 2006 12:45:43 AM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: rhino

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
I am sure Mr. Schumacher never says the enjoyment factor is missing from this type of tranny lets go for the "stick".

Of course he doesn't...he gets paid to win races, not to have the maximum fun.

I don't race for a living, I just want my car to be fast, involving, and fun.

The Tiptronic may be a bit quicker, but the passion just isn't there for me.

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Feb 28, 2006 12:54:19 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: TX 911

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

I here you; I am still undesided on which trans to pick.

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Feb 28, 2006 12:56:31 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: TX 911

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
TX 911 said:
Quote:
I am sure Mr. Schumacher never says the enjoyment factor is missing from this type of tranny lets go for the "stick".

Of course he doesn't...he gets paid to win races, not to have the maximum fun.

I don't race for a living, I just want my car to be fast, involving, and fun.

The Tiptronic may be a bit quicker, but the passion just isn't there for me.

Exactly. Unless you do lots of drag racing, I don't see why you'd want a Tip (although Mike Valentine makes a pretty convincing case for it - but then again, no LSD with it). I want to feel involved in driving and Autos aren't conducive to that feeling of involvement. If it were all about raw performance or common sense, we'd all have been driving SMG/F1 or DSG transmissions for quite some time now.
Also, from what I understand, Schumacher likes his cars MANUAL.

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Feb 28, 2006 1:00:22 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Porsche has put a very tough decision in front of many car enthusiasts. I wonder how I will order the 997TT???, but I think it's kind of cool that an auto is actualy tempting.

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Feb 28, 2006 11:38:40 AM

Walter: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 453, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: rhino

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
rhino said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
rhino said:
I don't think they are forgetting how to build a good manual, but as engines are becoming so advanced the six speed is becoming obsolete...?

This has nothing to do with advanced engines. The problem is that everybody wants to be Schumacher without putting in the effort and the factories gladly oblige, by making auto trannies (yes, F1 and SMG included), which are faster shifting than a 6-speed. It sells, that's all.
Why do we make babies the old-fashioned way, when we could do it artificially?
Same question applies to handling a "stick" ( ).

I am not sure I agree with your comment. We are talking about performance here, and if a transmission provides better performance (quicker shifts), why not exploit that system. I am sure Mr. Schumacher never says the enjoyment factor is missing from this type of tranny lets go for the "stick".

Michael Schumacher would choose the stick because he can use the engine for braking.A Tip can't do that,even with a Michael Schumacher behind the wheel.

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Feb 28, 2006 12:40:07 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Walter

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

I am curious what kind of trans has Michael Schumacher been racing with the past 4 years???

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Feb 28, 2006 12:42:58 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
Avantgarde said:
Well sum up, Mike! You're the second person after RC that's ever written anything positive about the tip

And the 997 Turbo Tip has been improved a lot over the 996 Turbo Tip, a difference like day and night, especially in combination with the Sport Chrono package.
This is the advantage of the networked black box design, all involved units (Tiptronic, AWD, PSM, PTM, engine incl. VTG chargers) are permanently communicating with each other, sorting out the perfect shifting/handling/traction/boost setups.

Of course the Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo isn't DSG/PDK but it comes pretty close to it.

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Feb 28, 2006 12:53:36 PM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: rhino

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
rhino said:
I am curious what kind of trans has Michael Schumacher been racing with the past 4 years???

One that has nothing to do whith the F1 box ferrari sells on road cars.
Road car sequential are the same as normal manual with a computer and hydraulics controlling clutch operation and gear lever operation. This is why 360 F1 was a little bit slower than a well driven manual, same goes for the E46 M3. DSG makes more sense with automated shifting (clutch operation) as there is no need to de-clutch to change gear.

In my opinion if manual and Tip numbers are correct I do not see PDK improving Tip times on straight acceleration

Race cars use "straight teeth" (personal translation

) gearboxes where there is no need to de-clutch to change gears except for start moving the car. Well this was some years ago, only god knows what they are ussing now.

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Feb 28, 2006 1:11:15 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: rhino

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
rhino said:
I am curious what kind of trans has Michael Schumacher been racing with the past 4 years???

Rhino,

what Schumacher has been RACING for four years, has NOTHING to do with what he ENJOYS driving. I can't believe this has been stated three times now and you still don't get the difference

. One is his JOB. If the regulations say SEQUENTIAL, it's sequential, no matter what he actually wants.

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Feb 28, 2006 2:47:23 PM

Avantgarde: Senior; Loc: City State; Posts: 708, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
RC said:
This is the advantage of the networked black box design, all involved units (Tiptronic, AWD, PSM, PTM, engine incl. VTG chargers) are permanently communicating with each other, sorting out the perfect shifting/handling/traction/boost setups.

It is physically and mentally impossible for any one human to perform all those functions accurately all the time too.

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Feb 28, 2006 4:08:11 PM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
Avantgarde said:
Quote:
RC said:
This is the advantage of the networked black box design, all involved units (Tiptronic, AWD, PSM, PTM, engine incl. VTG chargers) are permanently communicating with each other, sorting out the perfect shifting/handling/traction/boost setups.

It is physically and mentally impossible for any one human to perform all those functions accurately all the time too.

But it is possible for a computer to help the manual change by fitting sensors that detect the intention of changing gear, and help it.

To have an idea of what I mean is like DSG, it preselects the gear it thinks you are going to change too, but only changes when pulling the paddle.

The manual box could use all the benefits of the Trip regarding VTG chargers and engine management (the only two variables that could significally improve accelartion times) to anticipate the drivers gear change. For example when pressing the clutch using a by-pass system to keep turbo boost at a constant level, something that the triptronic achives with out any by-pass system

But they prefer to charge 4000Euro for an Auto than work a little on the manual and keep happy real enthusiasts (less than 10% of buyers, I suspect)

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Feb 28, 2006 5:44:37 PM

Ziggy: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1600, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Rafael from Spain

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
But they prefer to charge 4000Euro for an Auto than work a little on the manual and keep happy real enthusiasts (less than 10% of buyers, I suspect)

Amongst the things I love about Rennteam is that you are hardcore Porsche fans, but not blind, who watch carefully what Porsche is doing and never hesitate to critisize.

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Feb 28, 2006 7:28:48 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: Ziggy

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

It is our only weapon of any value against the powers of corporate capital

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Feb 28, 2006 7:33:27 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
Avantgarde said:
Well sum up, Mike! You're the second person after RC that's ever written anything positive about the tip

And the 997 Turbo Tip has been improved a lot over the 996 Turbo Tip, a difference like day and night, especially in combination with the Sport Chrono package.
This is the advantage of the networked black box design, all involved units (Tiptronic, AWD, PSM, PTM, engine incl. VTG chargers) are permanently communicating with each other, sorting out the perfect shifting/handling/traction/boost setups.

Of course the Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo isn't DSG/PDK but it comes pretty close to it.

Have you driven the new Tiptronic?

P.S.: I am sure that Porsche wants us to believe what you wrote. However, I doubt that the Tip will be satisfactory in real life

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Feb 28, 2006 9:03:09 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3995, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Have you driven the new Tiptronic?

P.S.: I am sure that Porsche wants us to believe what you wrote. However, I doubt that the Tip will be satisfactory in real life

Well, then, I guess that ends the discussion.

There's no possibility that Porsche engineers could make any torque converter equipped vehicle of which you would approve.

Did I get it about right?

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Feb 28, 2006 10:13:05 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
Avantgarde said:
Quote:
RC said:
This is the advantage of the networked black box design, all involved units (Tiptronic, AWD, PSM, PTM, engine incl. VTG chargers) are permanently communicating with each other, sorting out the perfect shifting/handling/traction/boost setups.

It is physically and mentally impossible for any one human to perform all those functions accurately all the time too.

That isn't quite true. What has been achieved by the 997 TT VTG Tiptronic could easily be replicated by a good driver with a manual transmission. The driver would just need to have three feet: one each to finely control clutch, brake and accelerator!

A lot of BS has been written in the past weeks about the 997 TT manual car's performance having been artificially castrated to push the sales of Tiptronic cars.
If you study the published information closely, you'll realize that the Tip's good acceleration figures are just a lucky break resulting from a combination of the characteristics of the slush pump auto tranny and the VTG engine. This resulted in a disproportionate improvement in the acceleration figures for the TT Tip model, not a lack of improvement in the manual car.

So what should Porsche have done on recognizing the outcome of this lucky break - castrate the Tip car in favor of the manual model, maybe?

I don't know if some of the heated discussions of this subject qualify as "funny" or just "pathetic".

Oooops! Did I just say that?

I've been thinking it for a while now.

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Feb 28, 2006 10:32:46 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
Avantgarde said:
Quote:
RC said:
This is the advantage of the networked black box design, all involved units (Tiptronic, AWD, PSM, PTM, engine incl. VTG chargers) are permanently communicating with each other, sorting out the perfect shifting/handling/traction/boost setups.

It is physically and mentally impossible for any one human to perform all those functions accurately all the time too.

That isn't quite true. What has been achieved by the 997 TT VTG Tiptronic could easily be replicated by a good driver with a manual transmission. The driver would just need to have three feet: one each to finely control clutch, brake and accelerator!

A lot of BS has been written in the past weeks about the 997 TT manual car's performance having been artificially castrated to push the sales of Tiptronic cars.
If you study the published information closely, you'll realize that the Tip's good acceleration figures are just a lucky break resulting from a combination of the characteristics of the slush pump auto tranny and the VTG engine. This resulted in a disproportionate improvement in the acceleration figures for the TT Tip model, not a lack of improvement in the manual car.

So what should Porsche have done on recognizing the outcome of this lucky break - castrate the Tip car in favor of the manual model, maybe?

I don't know if some of the heated discussions of this subject qualify as "funny" or just "pathetic".

Oooops! Did I just say that? I've been thinking it for a while now.

Fritz,

One of the fascinating technological advances with the 997TT-TipS that Porsche described in their press release via PCNA is that the updated TipS uses "pre-boost" (presumably spooling up the turbo's even before gearchange and throttle application in a higher gear at lower rpm's) to help maintain power and torque during gearchange (which I assume the 996TT-TipS did not benefit from), so that along with the communication between PTM on the new AWD transaxle and the tranny, the new TipS acts like an automatic "speedshift" driving technique in a manual tranny. Is this a correct analysis of the TipS "pre-boost" effect? If so, I wonder if a PDK tranny could use the same turbo programming with faster shiftchange (plus the presumed advantage of better downshifting of PDK) for even better (than Tippy) performance?

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Feb 28, 2006 11:22:10 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Crash said:

This has nothing to do with advanced engines. The problem is that everybody wants to be Schumacher without putting in the effort and the factories gladly oblige, by making auto trannies (yes, F1 and SMG included), which are faster shifting than a 6-speed. It sells, that's all.
Why do we make babies the old-fashioned way, when we could do it artificially?
Same question applies to handling a "stick" (

).

this is where all this started from your reply to my statement. If what I am saying is not true and manuals are not becoming obsolete than why is the tip faster. Why are more and more super/performance cars evolving this way? The automatic has been around for a very long time and you think now they are starting to market them in sportscars to sell more to the "Schumacher" wanabees? I dont think so the auto trannies are becoming more efficient and better performers. These are high performance machines and the competition is incredible. They better bring on the very best if not its closing time. Just like the races, these are the big league.

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Feb 28, 2006 11:39:45 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: rhino

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
rhino said:
Crash said:

This has nothing to do with advanced engines. The problem is that everybody wants to be Schumacher without putting in the effort and the factories gladly oblige, by making auto trannies (yes, F1 and SMG included), which are faster shifting than a 6-speed. It sells, that's all.
Why do we make babies the old-fashioned way, when we could do it artificially?
Same question applies to handling a "stick" ( ).

this is where all this started from your reply to my statement. If what I am saying is not true and manuals are not becoming obsolete than why is the tip faster. Why are more and more super/performance cars evolving this way? The automatic has been around for a very long time and you think now they are starting to market them in sportscars to sell more to the "Schumacher" wanabees? I dont think so the auto trannies are becoming more efficient and better performers. These are high performance machines and the competition is incredible. They better bring on the very best if not its closing time. Just like the races, these are the big league.

The automatic transmission has been around for decades and it has NEVER replaced the manual. The only reason the Tip achieves better times is because of pre-boosting. You could achieve the same or better times by keeping the gas pedal on the floor while shifting with a manual.
Now I don't understand why Porsche didn't program the manual in a way that would pre-boost at each shift.
For example: if WOT throttle is followed by pressing the clutch, it would automatically pre-boost the turbos, so that when you released the clutch, you'd already bee at full boost. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just not sure why Porsche didn't do it. I still feel that they wanted to sell more Tiptronics. $5000 extra per car at several thousand cars does leave an impression.
Regarding the Schumacher wannabees, I was referring to fast sequentials (and in this car's case, the Tip).
Automated isn't always better. Do you want your throttle, steering and brakes to be computer-operated? It will certainly be a faster and more competitive car, with you out of the equation. But would you be willing to sacrifice the fun factor, in order to enjoy it?
PDK is as far as I would go, with a preference of the manual still.
Oh, and one more thing: F1 is going back to manual, clutch operated transmissions real soon. I'd say they're in as big a league as it gets.

And to answer why all performance ccars are this way: it's because the average human is an immediate-gratification-seeking dummy, who doesn't want to put in any of the work and just wants to be perceived as "a racer". The factories also get a substantial margin on every such transmission they sell. That's it.

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Mar 1, 2006 12:05:26 AM

Ziggy: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1600, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
rhino said:
Crash said:

This has nothing to do with advanced engines. The problem is that everybody wants to be Schumacher without putting in the effort and the factories gladly oblige, by making auto trannies (yes, F1 and SMG included), which are faster shifting than a 6-speed. It sells, that's all.
Why do we make babies the old-fashioned way, when we could do it artificially?
Same question applies to handling a "stick" ( ).

this is where all this started from your reply to my statement. If what I am saying is not true and manuals are not becoming obsolete than why is the tip faster. Why are more and more super/performance cars evolving this way? The automatic has been around for a very long time and you think now they are starting to market them in sportscars to sell more to the "Schumacher" wanabees? I dont think so the auto trannies are becoming more efficient and better performers. These are high performance machines and the competition is incredible. They better bring on the very best if not its closing time. Just like the races, these are the big league.

The automatic transmission has been around for decades and it has NEVER replaced the manual. The only reason the Tip achieves better times is because of pre-boosting. You could achieve the same or better times by keeping the gas pedal on the floor while shifting with a manual.
Now I don't understand why Porsche didn't program the manual in a way that would pre-boost at each shift.
For example: if WOT throttle is followed by pressing the clutch, it would automatically pre-boost the turbos, so that when you released the clutch, you'd already bee at full boost. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just not sure why Porsche didn't do it. I still feel that they wanted to sell more Tiptronics. $5000 extra per car at several thousand cars does leave an impression.
Regarding the Schumacher wannabees, I was referring to fast sequentials (and in this car's case, the Tip).
Automated isn't always better. Do you want your throttle, steering and brakes to be computer-operated? It will certainly be a faster and more competitive car, with you out of the equation. But would you be willing to sacrifice the fun factor, in order to enjoy it?
PDK is as far as I would go, with a preference of the manual still.
Oh, and one more thing: F1 is going back to manual, clutch operated transmissions real soon . I'd say they're in as big a league as it gets.

And to answer why all performance ccars are this way: it's because the average human is an immediate-gratification-seeking dummy, who doesn't want to put in any of the work and just wants to be perceived as "a racer". The factories also get a substantial margin on every such transmission they sell. That's it.

Crash, about the return of the clutch pedal in F1, may be, may be not.

Mosley made some extrem propositions to the teams, and one of them was the return of a manuel gearbox, but these are mainly political propositions: by doing so and knowing the teams won't accept them in the first place, he then will bring more reasonable propositions to be accepted.

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Mar 1, 2006 2:29:32 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
Crash said:
The automatic transmission has been around for decades and it has NEVER replaced the manual. The only reason the Tip achieves better times is because of pre-boosting. You could achieve the same or better times by keeping the gas pedal on the floor while shifting with a manual.
Now I don't understand why Porsche didn't program the manual in a way that would pre-boost at each shift.
For example: if WOT throttle is followed by pressing the clutch, it would automatically pre-boost the turbos, so that when you released the clutch, you'd already bee at full boost. I'm sure it can be done, I'm just not sure why Porsche didn't do it. I still feel that they wanted to sell more Tiptronics. $5000 extra per car at several thousand cars does leave an impression.

Crash,

I am sympathetic to your theme that Porsche COULD pre-boost the 6-speed manual-equipped 997TT, but I do NOT think that the marketing department commanded the 997TT team to INTENTIONALLY engineer the TipS with this program to surpass the manual (in an attempt to boost Tippy sales

), rather I think they were simply attempting to develop the TipS to improve its performance versus the 996TT-TipS (and the competition)-and they were simply quite successful at it.

I do think there is plenty of room to improve the manual tranny's performance (as well as the TipS's since BOTH tranny versions are factory-limited as I have stated ad nauseum ), including pre-boosting mods. to the engine mapping/throttle response as suggested. Hopefully, Porsche is working on this with their powerkit and S upgrades for the manual, in addition to the PDK.

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Mar 1, 2006 10:15:45 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Quote:
W8MM said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Have you driven the new Tiptronic?

P.S.: I am sure that Porsche wants us to believe what you wrote. However, I doubt that the Tip will be satisfactory in real life

Well, then, I guess that ends the discussion.

There's no possibility that Porsche engineers could make any torque converter equipped vehicle of which you would approve.

Did I get it about right?

You got one thing right: All current Porsche cars with Tiptronic are inacceptable to me (as they are not fun to drive). I doubt that the 997TT should be the first exception.

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Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

Re: Sportscar Philosophy

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