Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest......... - Page3

Feb 20, 2006 8:56:31 AM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: ResB

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
ResB said:
Don't panic people, I know quite a number of M owners and they would all like to have a 911.

Do you really believe that? It's a little sad if you do. There are many nice cars out there and it's great to support one brand so enthusiastically, but don't delude yourself into believing everyone wants to be in your shoes.

When I first started owning Porsches more than 15 years ago I bought cars such as the 944S2, 928GT and 968CS. At the time as an official in the Porsche Club GB I was conscious of the view that the only true Porsche was a 911 and that all other Porsche owners really wanted a 911, but had chosen a poorer substitute. This kept me away from buying a 911 for many years, because it undermined the personal choice of buying one. Clearly anyone buying one was just following the 'herd instinct', rather like buying a red Ferrari. In the end I did buy a 911 and enjoyed many years driving and racing rear-engined Porsches.

It's been a few years since my last 911 and now I hear the same naive comment, this time asserting that anyone owning an M car really wants to own a Porsche instead. No we don't. There are many unique attributes to each brand and because of such competition each company is forced to improve their products to the benefit of us, the customers. Let's not make it easy on them by encouraging blind alegiance, nor be so cynical about other enthusiasts who choose for their own reasons to buy a different model car.

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Feb 20, 2006 7:59:00 PM

Scree: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 32, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 16, 2004; Reply to: SteveD

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
SteveD said:
It's been a few years since my last 911 and now I hear the same naive comment, this time asserting that anyone owning an M car really wants to own a Porsche instead.

Er, he didn't say all M car drivers did, just a few. I know a few as well who would love to upgrade to a 911. Most don't becuase they don't want to lose the practicality of the M3.

The M3 is a great feat of engineering, as are the M5, the Cayenne, the Merc AMG cars, etc. But save for the CSL, they're all cars with lots of compromise for the sake of convenience or comfort. The CSL would never have been built except for homologation requirements.

The GT3 and RS are cars with a singluar purpose, and that's what impresses me the most. Of course all street cars have compromises (radios, airbags, etc.), but I respect the engineering efforts for a company to push the envelope in all areas of performance, with compromise for "sreetability" a far second. That's what, to me, separates the GT3 from the other, undeniably fantastic cars (even Porsches).

~Scree

P.S. I'm not just biased toward Porsche. I think the F430 and Elise/Exige are similar vehicles where race engineering is valued far beyond the other elements.

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Feb 20, 2006 8:29:55 PM

ResB: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Yorkshire, where roads are twisty... , United Kingdom; Posts: 2858, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 19, 2006; Reply to: Scree

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
Scree said:
Quote:
SteveD said:
It's been a few years since my last 911 and now I hear the same naive comment, this time asserting that anyone owning an M car really wants to own a Porsche instead.

Er, he didn't say all M car drivers did, just a few. I know a few as well who would love to upgrade to a 911. Most don't becuase they don't want to lose the practicality of the M3.

The M3 is a great feat of engineering, as are the M5, the Cayenne, the Merc AMG cars, etc. But save for the CSL, they're all cars with lots of compromise for the sake of convenience or comfort. The CSL would never have been built except for homologation requirements.

The GT3 and RS are cars with a singluar purpose, and that's what impresses me the most. Of course all street cars have compromises (radios, airbags, etc.), but I respect the engineering efforts for a company to push the envelope in all areas of performance, with compromise for "sreetability" a far second. That's what, to me, separates the GT3 from the other, undeniably fantastic cars (even Porsches).

~Scree

P.S. I'm not just biased toward Porsche. I think the F430 and Elise/Exige are similar vehicles where race engineering is valued far beyond the other elements.

Thanks Scree, that is entirely the point I was trying to make, albeit not very successful it would appear. SteveD you were a bit quick off the mark there, perhaps a bit naïve.

I understand your point, but it isn't what I was attempting to say. Just to reiterate, a good friend of mine has an M3, albeit very practical he wishes he was in the lucky position to buy a 911. Okay that's just one, but he has a number of friends, one with an M5 and an M3 CSL and although he too love's his M's the M5 is going...and being replaced for...you guessed it...a 911.

Not everyone's taste but most enthusiasts at some point in their life aspired to own a 911 I'm sure.

Cheers,

Rich

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Feb 20, 2006 8:47:23 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: ResB

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Rich, my reaction was not naive. You made the point (albeit in a manner that was open to interpretation). What you seem to now be saying is that some people 'you know' with M cars would like to own a 911. Fine. That's entirely reasonable, just as some people I know with 911s would like to own an M car (usually an M3 CSL) and in fact many of them own both. I myself normally own both, and have done for more than a decade, so see no reason to consider one lesser or greater than the other.

The original thread was started on the comment that M engines were better than Porsche engines, but that's not my experience. My 996 GT3 engine was at least as good as that in my CSL - in fact I'd find it hard to pick a winner between two excellent pieces of engineering. Although clealry Porsche's handywork has been proven more so in international competition, so that's not exactly something to feel down about.

Anyway, I'm sorry if we've misunderstood eachother.

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Feb 20, 2006 8:53:38 PM

ResB: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Yorkshire, where roads are twisty... , United Kingdom; Posts: 2858, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 19, 2006; Reply to: SteveD

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
SteveD said:
Rich, my reaction was not naive. You made the point (albeit in a manner that was open to interpretation). What you seem to now be saying is that some people 'you know' with M cars would like to own a 911. Fine. That's entirely reasonable, just as some people I know with 911s would like to own an M car (usually an M3 CSL) and in fact many of them own both. I myself normally own both, and have done for more than a decade, so see no reason to consider one lesser or greater than the other.

The original thread was started on the comment that M engines were better than Porsche engines, but that's not my experience. My 996 GT3 engine was at least as good as that in my CSL - in fact I'd find it hard to pick a winner between two excellent pieces of engineering. Although clealry Porsche's handywork has been proven more so in international competition, so that's not exactly something to feel down about.

Anyway, I'm sorry if we've misunderstood eachother.

I completely agree. In fact, you'll like this. As I could not afford an M5 well I convinced myself at the time I couldn't but really wanted a new car it quickly turned into what seems an age old question, is it a Pounds50k Cayman or Standard Carrera? Before I knew it the friendly types on here convinced me from spending Pounds50k to over Pounds70k and ordering a new C2S! I really don't know what happened to the M5 in between. Tunnel vision perhaps.

[edit]

No need to apologise, I perhaps wasn't as clear as I should have been. Just for the record, I like "M" cars too and I could never get one as my good friend with the M3 would say I was copying him.

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Feb 20, 2006 9:25:43 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: ResB

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

You can't fit 5 pounds of gear into a 3 pound bag. The Porsche 911 is a packaging nightmare by design. To compare front-engined Bimmers against it is a bit unfair.

For those who don't know what to do with, or have no desire to enjoy, more than 300-320 horsepower, I'm baffled.... I guess it's all in what you're used to..

As chassis engineering improves, so do power expectations, as the chassis puts the power down ever more controllably. For $90K, my car better handle AND accelerate like hell's spawn. If I wanted a one-trick pony, I'd buy a Miata and leave the rest of my money in the bank.

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Feb 20, 2006 9:32:38 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: ResB

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
I completely agree. In fact, you'll like this. Before I knew it the friendly types on here convinced me from spending Pounds50k to over Pounds70k and ordering a new C2S! I really don't know what happened to the M5 in between. Tunnel vision perhaps.

It's so easy to be tempted..

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Feb 20, 2006 9:55:05 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mish

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
mish said:
M5 vs M6.....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-997803908557772668

M6 vs 966 Turbo.... Embarassing

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7456973188046837883

M5 vs 996 Turbo with X50 510 hp

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1554545651231980506

How come we have to have to pay such ridiculously high prices for completely inferior engines! Why aren't our S comparable in straightline performance? And it's not good enough to say "997 Turbo is our answer" as the car costs a 1/3 more than an M5!

Aren't you missing a few facts?

1. the 996 Turbo is a year 2000 technical design car.
When did BMW release the M6?

2. the 997 Turbo provides impressive performance figures with 480 HP "only" and right now I'm talking straight line performance because on the track, even the 355 HP "only" Carrera S is faster than the M5 and M6...something which should actually tell you a lot about these two models (bling bling, V10 bla bla engine but otherwise...)

3. the M launch control is a funny thing: it shuts off after usage for a few minutes (up to 10 minutes?) to avoid too much stress to the engine. Also the switchable power says a lot about this engine, especially since the base setup doesn't seem to be the most powerful one.

Yes, the new BMW M5 is a bang for the buck...if you need/want a limousine. But if not, what choices do I have?

Guys, stop comparing apples to oranges, I really start to doubt that some of you know the difference between a limousine and a sportscar.

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Feb 21, 2006 5:21:43 AM

tooner: Veteran; Loc: SF-Bay Area; Posts: 832, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 8, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Thanks everyone... wonderful thread y'all helped in my decision on my next stable of cars...

Daily Driver - BMW M3 - might as well since everyone wants the "Its good to know I have a Sh%@#t load of power that I may or may not need"

Family Car - BMW M5 - well it's a friggin limo [

RC] sits 5 nice trunk can be driven by my wife

Lastly....

MY CAR -

Porsche 997S Cab on TechArts... to be frank... I just loooove the living heck of out it!!! Oh and by the way I bought it so I have a sports car... one built to serve one purpose... BE A SPORTS CAR and none of this multi purpose whateverthefu$#$ks...

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Feb 21, 2006 7:10:46 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: tooner

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Consider this lap rime for a 1990 model car....

7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- Jaguar XJ220, John Walton (EVO magzine 07/200), >>> http://www.jwhubbers.nl/ring/docs/evo-0007-7.jpg

For a 1990 model car, that was actually designed in the early 80's, that had hardly any development budget or sales
user feedback (due to the then worldwide financial climate)The Jag XJ220 is a remarkable sportscar.

Its a impressive design for so little actual development budget. Its V6 engine of 3.5 liters made 540hp!

For sheer talent and genius, I rate it the best performing supercar ever made.

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Feb 21, 2006 9:26:56 AM

mish: Pilot; Loc: World; Posts: 421, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 16, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

RC, isn't it time for us to stop running to that boring old safety net of 'well even a Boxster can out run an Mxx on THE TRACK'....?

I mean seriously, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have never even been near a damn track.

Our 997 models are marketed not so much as "Sports cars" - but as quick and nimble everyday drivers - like the M series. You yourself, for example, talk about how you don't want anyone to notice that you drive a 'Turbo' to WORK!...Something has to give here, surely??

Bang for the buck, Porsche can do much better than this, and I'm afraid to say - we are not pushing them to take affirmative action in this matter because they (like you

) run back to this boring old 'track performance' number.

If I am at a redlight in my so called 'sports car', I want to know that I can absolutely SMOKE that 'limosine' (with 3 kids in the back) - not hang my head in shame - and point directions out to the nearest local RACE TRACK!

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Feb 21, 2006 9:36:41 AM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: mish

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
mish said:
RC, isn't it time for us to stop running to that boring old safety net of 'well even a Boxster can out run an Mxx on THE TRACK'....?

Today's edition of Autocar (in the UK) compared the Porsche Cayman S, Audi RS4, Merc SLK55 and BMW M3 CS (Competition Pack in the US). On the track the M3 was fastest followed by the Cayman S. I quote "Result? With a bit of manhandling the M3 laps even quicker than the Porsche (nope, I couldn't believe the data either, even though I generated it) and just for good measure beats it by half a second in the 0-100mph contest as well (11.5sec v 12.0sec)". The driver was aclaimed racer Steve Sutcliffe.

So there's no harm in comparing M cars and Porsches on track, they often both achieve similar results through different means.

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Feb 21, 2006 10:15:35 AM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: SteveD

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
SteveD said:
Quote:
mish said:
RC, isn't it time for us to stop running to that boring old safety net of 'well even a Boxster can out run an Mxx on THE TRACK'....?

Today's edition of Autocar (in the UK) compared the Porsche Cayman S, Audi RS4, Merc SLK55 and BMW M3 CS (Competition Pack in the US). On the track the M3 was fastest followed by the Cayman S. I quote "Result? With a bit of manhandling the M3 laps even quicker than the Porsche (nope, I couldn't believe the data either, even though I generated it) and just for good measure beats it by half a second in the 0-100mph contest as well (11.5sec v 12.0sec)". The driver was aclaimed racer Steve Sutcliffe.

So there's no harm in comparing M cars and Porsches on track, they often both achieve similar results through different means.

Could anybody scan?

About your comments. It depends also on the type of track. Both are great cars. I just sold my E46 M3 and have a 997S on order, but I will stick to my first comment. The M3 is the best they can do with an everyday chassis (3-series) and the 911 is a "no compromise" design (ok engine boxer 6 behind the car) but it has not to share platform with a 2 litre diesel.

So in the end when you just want emotions, the origins of both are present.

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Feb 21, 2006 2:11:25 PM

AJVIP: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1862, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2005; Reply to: SteveD

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
SteveD said:
Quote:
mish said:
RC, isn't it time for us to stop running to that boring old safety net of 'well even a Boxster can out run an Mxx on THE TRACK'....?

Today's edition of Autocar (in the UK) compared the Porsche Cayman S, Audi RS4, Merc SLK55 and BMW M3 CS (Competition Pack in the US). On the track the M3 was fastest followed by the Cayman S. I quote "Result? With a bit of manhandling the M3 laps even quicker than the Porsche (nope, I couldn't believe the data either, even though I generated it) and just for good measure beats it by half a second in the 0-100mph contest as well (11.5sec v 12.0sec)". The driver was aclaimed racer Steve Sutcliffe.

So there's no harm in comparing M cars and Porsches on track, they often both achieve similar results through different means.

I wonder how BMW's in general did at the 'Ring ..... hmm ...

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Feb 21, 2006 2:18:02 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: AJVIP

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

7.50min for M3CSL with semi-slicks(Michelin Sports).

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Feb 21, 2006 2:19:16 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

The X5 Le Mans did pretty well too (7:49) IIRC.

http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=51F08AD2-A549-43F0-AD1B-E91F288808EB

http://www.carpages.co.uk/bmw/bmw_x5_le_mans_record_28_06_01.asp?switched=on&echo=811267112

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Feb 24, 2006 8:06:36 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: mish

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

I personally do not believe that a M5 or M6 can outrun a 996tt with the X50 upgrade -much less a 510 horse tt. I don't care what the vid shows. It's fixed.
How can a stock M5 (4100 lb. plus), 500 hp car decidedly walk away from a 510 hp turbo that weighs roughly 3500 lbs.
Furthermore several road tests reveal that a M5 runs about a 10 second 100 mph sprint and a mid twelve quarter. The 996tt -without X50 and, 414 hp outperforms the M5. The vid is a fix.
The 997tt with crush the M5 or M6. A 997S should run with the M5.

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Feb 24, 2006 9:32:53 PM

advevo: Newbie; Loc: holland; Posts: 15, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2005; Reply to: devo

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

i found this on pistonheads.

According to recent press releases Porsche are making Pounds2.5 mln per day which makes them the most profitable car company in the world.Does anyone else think this sums up the way this company is going?They nearly went bust in 1993 and supposedly according to most experts produced their best cars then..is there a correlation between quality and cost?Obviously there is..

I know a guy who's an Autos equity analyst at a big bank who went along to the anouncement of the Cayman to investors. When they announced the suggested price he, being a cynic and not liking cars much, asked. "Erm aren't hard tops cheaper to make than soft tops." To which someone at porsche said "yes. In this case about euro8,500 less" He was surprised at this honest response for a car they were proposing to sell for 5k more so asked them to justify the difference. They did. People buy Porsches they said because they are a luxury good not just because they are a good car, as a result they will pay whatever Porsche charge them.

He wasn't wrong and the analyst agreed. He tells me to think of it this way. Porsche make good profits but nothing like Louis Vuitton who don't have to engineer F*^K all but still charge thousands for a bag!

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Feb 24, 2006 9:57:22 PM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: advevo

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Already 5 thread-pages for all this BS

Come on M-fellows - Wake up to reality.
I can make you a video in which my wife's SUV smokes a my 911.

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Feb 24, 2006 10:15:07 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: devo

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
devo said:
I personally do not believe that a M5 or M6 can outrun a 996tt with the X50 upgrade -much less a 510 horse tt. I don't care what the vid shows. It's fixed.
How can a stock M5 (4100 lb. plus), 500 hp car decidedly walk away from a 510 hp turbo that weighs roughly 3500 lbs.
Furthermore several road tests reveal that a M5 runs about a 10 second 100 mph sprint and a mid twelve quarter. The 996tt -without X50 and, 414 hp outperforms the M5. The vid is a fix.
The 997tt with crush the M5 or M6. A 997S should run with the M5.

If you are truly interested in examining for yourself whether the video was 'fixed' as you claim, then why not go onto http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/ examine the other videos (there are about 8-9 videos IIRC comparing against all different kinds of car). And by all means ask the forum owner how he conducted the tests. His name is Gustav, he's a friendly and well-meaning Swedish student who happens to be pretty well connected with other entusiasts in his country. They took all the cars they compared to the Koenegsigg factory and used their private airfield to conduct the tests. It's all well documented so you can then properly judge for yourself if the performance was genuine.

Being the well informed enthusiast that you are I'm sure you are aware of the well published dyno tests (by EVO magazine no less) showing that the M5 actually produces around 530bhp from its V10 engine. Given that it weighs around 110kg (250lbs) more than the 911TT, it's not unreasonable that their performance would be as close. Road tests that I've seen published for the M5 seem to indicate around 9.2 seconds to 100mph and certainly considerably less than the 10 seconds you mention.

As I say, have a look at the source of these videos before dismissing the comparison. Many of the owners on m5board also own 996TTs so there's no agenda or axe to grind that would cause them to falcify the evidence.

I assume you've actually driven an M5 to be able to comment on its performance?

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Feb 24, 2006 10:59:36 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: SteveD

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Thank you for your condescending attitude. I meerly posted my opinion. Thank you again.

In fact, being an informed enthusiast that you proclaimed me to be, I must admit, that I am unaware

that a M5 actually produces 530 hp. With that said, I got my other data from various rags.
Remarkably, I actually haved owned two E46 M-3's and do believe that BMW makes the some of the best engines.
And lastly, no I have not driven an M5, however, what would that prove. Unless I drove it with a reference point, the ride would be pointless.
I can truely appreciate what BMW has done. Just because I now own a P-car doesn't make me dislike M cars. With the information I had, I didn't believe what I saw and, frankly, still don't.

Sorry, but isn't the weight diff. much greater than the 250 lbs. you mention?

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Feb 24, 2006 11:04:27 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: SteveD

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

And come on, the M5 outrunning a 510 pony tt, that weighs less. Recent rags post the M5 at 10 sec. 0-100, but of course, I haven't driven it.
If the car is that fast, maybe I should look at a M-6 rather than a 997tt. I just can't believe it, sorry.

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Feb 24, 2006 11:09:17 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

What kind of SUV does your wife own?

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Feb 25, 2006 12:04:28 AM

Scott in Houston: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 1, 2004; Reply to: devo

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Hey guys. Long time since I posted here.
I sold my 996 TT and got an M5. I am going to get a dedicated track car b/c I'm getting afraid of running such high speeds in the turbo, and I needed the practicality of the M5.

There is no question, that in a straight line, my M5 is faster than the turbo. 0-60 it's close, 0-100 it's still close but M5 is faster and beyond that it's a run away for the M5.

Now that's a straight line. There's no way I'm as fast around the track in the M5. I haven't run it at a track yet since it's so new, but I'm willin got bet at my local haunt: Texas World Speedway, I'll be a good 5-7 seconds slower on the 2.9 mile 15 turn circuit.

The M5 is the best all-around car I've ever owned. It's a highway rocket and still handles amazingly well for a 4000 lb sedan. It feels a lot lighter and smaller than it is, but it's still a big ole sedan. It's not a aports car.

I know it's hard to watch what was once Porsche's pinnacle of cars lose to this sedan, but as has been said: it's a straight line and it's 6 year old technology in the Porsche.

I'm loving my M5. I do not regret my decision. In 4 years I'll probably get a 997 TT... who knows. But on the track I'll run a $13K miata or something and not worry about hurting it... And I'll get to drive there in a sweet sedan that hauls @ss. For every day driving, there is nothing currently better than the M5.

And as for the 997 C2S... it gets absolutely dusted in a straight line by the M5. I've witnessed this first hand. it's hard to compete with 507 bhp and a fast shifting SMG in that car. At speed, the extra weight means nothing.

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Feb 25, 2006 6:50:53 AM

Jean: Veteran; Loc: Seoul , South Korea; Posts: 1033, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2002; Reply to: Scott in Houston

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Hi guys,

I too have recently sold my 996 Turbo and got an M5 for the same reason as Scott did. I want my track only car, which will be 997GT3RS.

Although I miss the effortless acceleration of the turbo power sometimes, I am thoroughly enjoying the sound of the V10 as well as the M variable rear differential set up.

I also want you to know that I'm not into drag racing as my heart always follows the apexes of beautiful corners. In no way, M5 sedan is a good comparison to the 996 Turbo as these are much different cars, but I can also confirm that in a straightline it's a close race up to 100mph and from there the horsepower plays. Now the 997 Turbo is a whole different story.

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Feb 25, 2006 9:19:22 AM

kauai_diver: Junior; Loc: SF Bay Area, Ca; Posts: 93, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2004; Reply to: CF

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Agree with Rafael from Spain,

Check out:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4514271070439299421&q=top+gear+7

A race on the Isle of Mann, an AstonMartin, BMW M6, and a 997S. The aston has 381 hp, the BMW M6 pumps out 500 and the 997s with a measly 355...guess who won? and it wasnt by a small margin either.

Its not just about how much horsepower you got its about how much you can actually use...

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Feb 25, 2006 9:36:29 AM

Walter: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 453, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Consider this lap rime for a 1990 model car....

7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- Jaguar XJ220, John Walton (EVO magzine 07/200), >>> http://www.jwhubbers.nl/ring/docs/evo-0007-7.jpg

For a 1990 model car, that was actually designed in the early 80's, that had hardly any development budget or sales
user feedback (due to the then worldwide financial climate)The Jag XJ220 is a remarkable sportscar.

Its a impressive design for so little actual development budget. Its V6 engine of 3.5 liters made 540hp!

For sheer talent and genius, I rate it the best performing supercar ever made.

The article says that the Jag nearly did 200mph,which is approximatly 320km/h.The CCR did 313km/h with nearly 250hp more.

I just noticed that.

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Feb 25, 2006 12:14:05 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: devo

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
devo said:
Thank you for your condescending attitude. I meerly posted my opinion. Thank you again.
In fact, being an informed enthusiast that you proclaimed me to be, I must admit, that I am unaware that a M5 actually produces 530 hp. With that said, I got my other data from various rags.
Remarkably, I actually haved owned two E46 M-3's and do believe that BMW makes the some of the best engines.
And lastly, no I have not driven an M5, however, what would that prove. Unless I drove it with a reference point, the ride would be pointless.
I can truely appreciate what BMW has done. Just because I now own a P-car doesn't make me dislike M cars. With the information I had, I didn't believe what I saw and, frankly, still don't.
Sorry, but isn't the weight diff. much greater than the 250 lbs. you mention?

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending, but having driven all the cars you mentioned it was hard to understand where you'd gained your insight from.

In answer to your question about weights, Porsche and BMW quote their weights to different standards. Porsche quote a DIN weight and an EC weight (DIN + 68kg +7kg), whereas BMW only quote what they call an EU weight which is DIN + 68kg + 7kg + 90% of fuel in tank. Given that fuel weighs around 750g for every litre, this means that a 90% tank of fuel in an M5 weighs around 50kg. So given that Porsche quote a DIN weight of 1590kg for the 996 Turbo. BMW quote 1830kg, from which you need to subtract 50kg for fuel, 68kg for an average person and 7 kg for luggage leaving a DIN weight of 1705kg for the M5. So therefore the M5 is 115kg heavier than the 996 Turbo which is equivalent to 258lbs.

I've never seen an M5 being measured at 10 seconds 0-100mph. Having driven both M5 and M6 many times I'm in no doubt that their performance in a straight line is fully supercar compliant, I believe I noted an M6 being tested at 8.7 seconds 0-100 and I can believe that. My own M3 CSL will go from 0-100mph in 10 seconds flat and both M5 and M6 feel clearly quicker. But the M3 CSL is still the fastest production car BMW have ever built for going around a track, and by quite a margin.

There was a group test performed a few months ago when M5, 911TT X50 and a Noble M400 were driven to the Nurburgring. The 911TT won (if there can be a winner from amongst such capable cars) because it provided the most impressive capability on track 'combined' with stunning road pace and comfort. It wasn't quite as capable as the M5 on the road, but it was more capable on track and overall the more stunning package.

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Feb 25, 2006 12:20:52 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: kauai_diver

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

Quote:
kauai_diver said:
Agree with Rafael from Spain,

Check out:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4514271070439299421&q=top+gear+7

A race on the Isle of Mann, an AstonMartin, BMW M6, and a 997S. The aston has 381 hp, the BMW M6 pumps out 500 and the 997s with a measly 355...guess who won? and it wasnt by a small margin either.

Its not just about how much horsepower you got its about how much you can actually use...

That was a very misleading test. I've driven on the Isle of Man and there are some great roads, but they become very slippery when wet and they are very twisty and narrow. They're not the place that 'any' 500bhp+ car would thrive, apart from a 911TT. The M6 has no problem putting down its 500+ horses, in fact that's probably one of it's most appealing revelations, how usuable all that power actually is. But a 997S is faster around a lap than either M5 or M6, which simply weigh too much. Weight is the enemy of performance on a track and any such test would be a foregone conclusion for that reason. But on the road, the M6 is a very agile car (considering it's size) and deeply rewarding to drive. It's also highly entertaining to slide from the rear. But the M6 is a GT car (comparable in purpose with a Ferrari 612) whereas the 911 is a sports car. Each with very different aims, although clearly there is a degree of overlap in what they can achieve.

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Feb 25, 2006 4:49:22 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: SteveD

Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

I wonder where the 997tt will place in a side by side race with the M6. Some U.S. mags do indicate a roughly 10.00 sec. 0-100 run and a 12+sec. 1/4 for the M5, however, I must admit their accuracy could be suspect.
It's not that I don't believe that the M 's are fiece street competitors. I have a hard time believing that they beat the modified ttP-car by such a decisive margin.
All great cars. Different aggendas.
Maybe, I'm somewhat disappointed that Porsche didn't make the 997tt a LITTLE more powerful.

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