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    Feb 19, 2006 2:57:23 PM

    mish
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    M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    M5 vs M6.....

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-997803908557772668




    M6 vs 966 Turbo.... Embarassing

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7456973188046837883





    M5 vs 996 Turbo with X50 510 hp

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1554545651231980506



    How come we have to have to pay such ridiculously high prices for completely inferior engines! Why aren't our S comparable in straightline performance? And it's not good enough to say "997 Turbo is our answer" as the car costs a 1/3 more than an M5!

    Feb 19, 2006 3:07:18 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: mish

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Old v New ,, not fair ..

    Time to bring in the big n bad tip , it'll be ..

    Feb 19, 2006 3:14:07 PM

    mish
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    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Lol Throt...that's RC's car... Where's the Granny by the way? That's the best PS ever!!

    Well, that's the problem here - why should we have to bring in the $130k 997 Turbo to even stand a chance against the M?

    I would be embarassed to try to race any M with a 997 's'....can you imagine what would happen given that the 996 TT got s.m.o.k.e.d.....


    Come on Porsche, it's time to give us 'S' Owners a foothold against the M engines WITHOUT having to fork out an arm and a leg. Our 'S' cost more than an M but without the same performance...that's not right!!

    Feb 19, 2006 3:18:07 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: mish

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Different philosophies, these M5/6 are made for drag racing, not the 997S. Around the track, the BMWs have no chance.

    Feb 19, 2006 3:22:05 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Different philosophies, these M5/6 are made for drag racing, not the 997S. Around the track, the BMWs have no chance.



    The biggest prob for the 997S is going to be the all new M3 with the new 8 engine and 400 + ponies ,, plus it'll be cheaper . Can you compare ?? , buyers will ...

    throt...

    Feb 19, 2006 3:23:36 PM

    mish
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    I guess that depends on how many of us want to / or even have raced on the tracks!

    It's all very well saying Porsche are better on the twisties - but surely there can be a happy medium without having to always look up to the Turbo as the saviour?


    I don't know about you, but for me it's more satisying for me to pull away from another car on the street - than it ever would be on the track....

    Feb 19, 2006 3:28:57 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: mish

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    The 911 (non turbo) is supposed to be a low HP, light weight ( ), great traction, superb handling and package, that can take sedans with high HP in the twisties.

    If that is not what you want, get a BMW or Mercedes AMG, you will be more happy

    BTW I am sure this Cayenne does a good job on the straights

    Feb 19, 2006 3:32:25 PM

    Rafael from Spain
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    Reply to: mish

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    mish said:
    Lol Throt...that's RC's car... Where's the Granny by the way? That's the best PS ever!!

    Well, that's the problem here - why should we have to bring in the $130k 997 Turbo to even stand a chance against the M?

    I would be embarassed to try to race any M with a 997 's'....can you imagine what would happen given that the 996 TT got s.m.o.k.e.d.....


    Come on Porsche, it's time to give us 'S' Owners a foothold against the M engines WITHOUT having to fork out an arm and a leg. Our 'S' cost more than an M but without the same performance...that's not right!!





    Look at the Top Gear episode where the 997S simply smokes an M6 in a real road.

    Drag racing is for dragsters, not cars. Get a shopping trolley and fit it with a rocket, there you have straight line performance at a cheap price.

    Come on is time to forget about straight line times and think about overall performance.

    The new M3 will be a good car but not a real sports car. At the end no matter how you look at it is a 3-series coupe with better engine, brakes, diff and suspension. It is not design from scratch to make the best possible sports car. It is just the best they can do with the 3 series platform.

    Cheers

    Feb 19, 2006 4:11:43 PM

    doc2s
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    Reply to: Rafael from Spain

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    how about the M3CSL vs. 996 GT3. at the ring times are 7min:50s vs. 7min:54s. both are track oriented cars.

    source: http://www.track-challenge.com

    Feb 19, 2006 4:16:41 PM

    CFM
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    Reply to: doc2s

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    The M3CSL had Michelin Sport Cup tires for that test!!!!

    Enormous difference..it gained at least 15 seconds by doing so!

    Feb 19, 2006 4:26:29 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: CFM

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    That much for the tires? I thought 10 secs only.

    Feb 19, 2006 4:47:47 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: CFM

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Geez, I got an 04M3 and an 06 997S.

    I was thinking I'd keep the M3 and trade the 997S for a 997 Turbo. Now maybe I should trade the old M3 in for a new M5 and just keep the current 997S for "show." Are y'all listening over there at Porsche?

    Feb 19, 2006 4:51:26 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Ask instead ...

    Why are BMW M engines NOT known for their longevity?

    Why is the vaunted new BMW M V10 weaker than a Chevy V8?

    Why do BMW M engines have such a lousy reputation with BMW service departments for all of sorts of electical faults?

    Why has every 8 cyl M engine had head problems?

    Why do BMW M engine parts cost almost double of Porsche parts?

    Would anyone in their right mind keep a M V10 after its warranty has expired?

    Why in the US, is the M3 the darling of spoiled high school kids suffering from "AF-Fluenza" ?

    Feb 19, 2006 4:56:38 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: mish

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    mish said:
    M5 vs M6.....

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-997803908557772668




    M6 vs 966 Turbo.... Embarassing

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7456973188046837883





    M5 vs 996 Turbo with X50 510 hp

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1554545651231980506



    How come we have to have to pay such ridiculously high prices for completely inferior engines! Why aren't our S comparable in straightline performance? And it's not good enough to say "997 Turbo is our answer" as the car costs a 1/3 more than an M5!





    These videos are rather old.

    For your information: we did a comparison of a regular 996TT x50 vs M6 on a German Autobahn.

    Up to ca. 240kph both cars were (approximately) equally quick, above 240kph the 996TT was gaining ground.

    Thus, even though I am also disappointed by the new 997TT, the 997TT should be faster than M5 or M6. Even in the manual shift version.

    Feb 19, 2006 5:05:30 PM

    stanwan
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    After accounting for engine size, there really isn't much between the new M engines and the latest flat-6. Of course, porsche could enlarge to a flat-8 but the increased weight, coupled with additional packaging problems, might render this solution a non-starter.

    Feb 19, 2006 5:08:36 PM

    CFM
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Rest assured that on the German Autobahn the 997 TT will be King, I guarantee that!

    Feb 19, 2006 5:25:13 PM

    mish
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    Reply to: Rafael from Spain

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    Rafael from Spain said:
    Quote:
    mish said:
    Lol Throt...that's RC's car... Where's the Granny by the way? That's the best PS ever!!

    Well, that's the problem here - why should we have to bring in the $130k 997 Turbo to even stand a chance against the M?

    I would be embarassed to try to race any M with a 997 's'....can you imagine what would happen given that the 996 TT got s.m.o.k.e.d.....


    Come on Porsche, it's time to give us 'S' Owners a foothold against the M engines WITHOUT having to fork out an arm and a leg. Our 'S' cost more than an M but without the same performance...that's not right!!





    Look at the Top Gear episode where the 997S simply smokes an M6 in a real road.

    Drag racing is for dragsters, not cars. Get a shopping trolley and fit it with a rocket, there you have straight line performance at a cheap price.

    Come on is time to forget about straight line times and think about overall performance.

    The new M3 will be a good car but not a real sports car. At the end no matter how you look at it is a 3-series coupe with better engine, brakes, diff and suspension. It is not design from scratch to make the best possible sports car. It is just the best they can do with the 3 series platform.

    Cheers





    Rafael, I saw that TG episode, however, I am a little dubious as to the results because of the pelting rain! The conditions were horrific and certainly not useful when properly comparing the 2 cars.

    I would like to see the real results when the conditions are normal.


    Feb 19, 2006 5:41:45 PM

    Walter
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Why is the vaunted new BMW M V10 weaker than a Chevy V8?



    Displacement

    I can't answer the other questions.I have 2 relatives that own a BMW and none of them have problems with the car.

    Feb 19, 2006 5:52:51 PM

    Walter
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    Reply to: Rafael from Spain

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    Rafael from Spain said:
    Look at the Top Gear episode where the 997S simply smokes an M6 in a real road.

    Drag racing is for dragsters, not cars. Get a shopping trolley and fit it with a rocket, there you have straight line performance at a cheap price.

    Come on is time to forget about straight line times and think about overall performance.

    The new M3 will be a good car but not a real sports car. At the end no matter how you look at it is a 3-series coupe with better engine, brakes, diff and suspension. It is not design from scratch to make the best possible sports car. It is just the best they can do with the 3 series platform.

    Cheers



    I totally agree.

    I don't care about straight line performance.I don't know for most of you guys but for me 300hp is already a lot.

    Feb 19, 2006 5:54:20 PM

    SoCal Alan
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    Reply to: throt

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    throt said:
    Old v New ,, not fair ..

    Time to bring in the big n bad tip , it'll be ..



    That looks bad ass! I want one, just like it. Except for the tip.

    Feb 19, 2006 5:56:48 PM

    SteveD
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    Reply to: CFM

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    CF said:
    The M3CSL had Michelin Sport Cup tires for that test!!!!

    Enormous difference..it gained at least 15 seconds by doing so!



    No it does not. Being a former GT3 Mk1 owner and present M3 CSL owner, I regularly drive with my old pals in the latest GT3 Mk2 and GT3 RS, there's a couple of seconds in it around a twisty track with 'both' cars wearing Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. Also bear in mind the increased footprint of the GT3 compared to the CSL, just fitting wider tyres to the front of the CSL allows the CSL to take whole seconds off it's lap time. The reason the CSL is quick is because of it's extremely poised chassis. It can brake later and carry more speed into corners. The GT3 can accelerate earlier from the apex to corner exit, so it depends on the circuit. Around Nurburgring it's all about stability and confidence so this plays to the CSLs strengths, as do circuits with lots of high-speed corners.

    Feb 19, 2006 6:20:33 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: Walter

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:

    I don't care about straight line performance.I don't know for most of you guys but for me 300hp is already a lot.



    Same here

    Thing is I'd rather have great feedback from the car vs power as I cannot exploit the 320hp of my 996 (rarely full throttle). That is also my rationale for cab vs coupe (more senstions with the open top )

    Straight line is fun a for couple of times, but when you have to stop at 100mph, it wears down a bit. It is fun to see the face of people getting smoked by a CTT though

    Feb 19, 2006 6:27:38 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: Rafael from Spain

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    Rafael from Spain said:
    Get a shopping trolley and fit it with a rocket, there you have straight line performance at a cheap price.




    I try that when I'm in Lidl next ,, erRrRrRrRr I mean M & S .. ...

    throt..

    Feb 19, 2006 7:14:47 PM

    CFM
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    Reply to: throt

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    That must be one hell of a chassi since the car gained about 30 seconds, and with only 15 HP more.

    Feb 19, 2006 7:20:03 PM

    SteveD
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    Reply to: CFM

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    CF said:
    That must be one hell of a chassi since the car gained about 30 seconds, and with only 15 HP more.




    In practice the S54 engine in the M3 CSL develops around 360bhp, some nearer 370bhp, whereas the M3 tends to develop somewhat less than the claimed 343bhp (usually nearer 330bhp). Then in practice the CSL weighs between 110-140kg less than the M3 (250-300lbs). Drive both cars back to back and it's clear why the CSL would be much quicker on track... The CSL has a chassis that is very benign and you can concentrate on keeping the pedal to the floor more of the time than in the GT3. Driving a GT3 fast is more of a technical exercise in optimising its weight balance, braking in a straight line, then using the brakes to quell understeer before using the superior traction out of the curve. The CSL can brake much later without destabilising the car, trail-brake into the corner and require nothing more than swift steering correction on the way out.

    Anyway, back to the subject of this thread. I'm currently waiting for my dealer to contact me to confirm my order on the 997 GT3, but I've also placed an order for the next M3 CSL in 2008 which is likely to have a 440-450bhp 4L V8 in a 'hopefully' comparably weighted bodyshell. Knowing BMW it will be an excellent engine and I'm really spoilt for choice.

    Feb 19, 2006 7:35:00 PM

    mish
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    Reply to: SteveD

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    RING times....

    (Jimflat6's post)



    7:28 --- 166.652 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl,(Autobild July 2004)

    7:32.44 163.911 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, definitive time Horst Von Saurma (sport auto 01/2004)

    7:32.52 163.882 km/h -- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (sport auto 2001) >>> http://www.gemballa.com/news/gtr6002.html

    7:36 --- 162.631 km/h -- AC-Schnitzer M3 CLS II E36, 350 hp, Michelin Sport Cup R , Mattias Ekblom

    7:36 --- 162.631 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)

    7:39 --- 161.575 km/h - Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1180 kg, >>> http://www.koenigsegg.com/news/articles.asp?news=91&page=&type=news

    7:40* -- 161.217 km/h - Corvette Z06 Blue Devil, 600 PS/ 1419.7 kg (estimated), Jan Magnusen (AutoBild 7/2005) (*mfr.), >>> http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=0&tID=44953

    7:40* -- 161.217 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, *cold and partially wet track (sport auto 12/2003)

    7:40 --- 161.217 km/h -- Porsche GT3 RS, stock but Pirelli P Zero Corsa, Mattias Ekblom (ams)

    7:40 --- 161.217 km/h -- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig (Autobild 07/2004)

    7:41 --- 160.868 km/h - Manthey Porsche GT3 M410, 413hp (AutoBild 07/2004) >>> http://www.manthey-motors.de/nextshopcms/cmspdf.asp?id=217

    7:42 --- 160.519 km/h -- Mosler MT900S Photon, Joao Barbosa, 2004 (according to dailysportscar.net)

    7:42 --- 160.519 km/h -- Radical 1500 SR3, 230 PS/510 kg (2002)

    7:43 --- 160.173 km/h -- TechArt Porsche GT Street, 620 PS/1453 kg, (sport auto 08/2002)7:43 --- 160.173 km/h --
    Porsche 996 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Röhrl (MOTOR Magazine)

    7:43.5 - 160,000 km/h -- Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine 2002)

    7:44 --- 159.828 km/h -- Pagani Zonda C12 S, 580 PS/1820 kg (sport auto 07/2002)

    7:45 --- 159.484 km/h -- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600, 600hp (2000)

    7:45* -- 159.484 km/h -- McLaren F1, *estimated lap time from a video available at >>> www.pistonheads.tv

    7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT2, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/2001)

    7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- Jaguar XJ220, John Walton (EVO magzine 07/200), >>> http://www.jwhubbers.nl/ring/docs/evo-0007-7.jpg

    7:46 --- 159.142 km/h -- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652hp (sport auto 1999)

    7:47 --- 158.801 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381hp (sport auto 03/2004)

    7.49 --- 158.124 km/h -- Porsche GT3, 392hp (AutoBild 2004) http://www.autobild.de/tuning/testberichte/artikel.php?artikel_id=7274&artikel_seite=4

    7:49 --- 158.124 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup, 360 PS/1207 kg (sport auto 02/1999)

    7:49.72 157.885 km/h -- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne 1993 (moto bike)

    7:50 --- 157.787 km/h -- BMW E46 M3 CSL (sport auto 08/2003)

    7:50 --- 157.787 km/h -- Blitz Supra, 750hp, Herbert Schürg (1997)

    7:50 --- 157.787 km/h -- Lamborghini Murcielago, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/2002)

    7:50 --- 157.787 km/h - Westfield Super 7 with Hayabusa engine, >>> http://nurburgring.free.fr/Vids/Bren_Westie_Whooo_Divx504_1_350.avi

    7:52 --- 157.119 km/h - BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg, >>> http://www.rhein-main.net/sixcms/detail.pPS/1879435?topic_id=731907

    7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (sport auto 1995)

    7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (sport auto 12/2003)

    7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (sport auto 06/2004)

    7:54 --- 156.456 km/h - Mercedes CLK DTM AMG, 582bPS/1678kg, (sport auto 03/2005), >>> http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=27415

    7:54 --- 156.456 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3 (sport auto 06/2003)

    7:55 --- 156.126 km/h -- Caterham R500 Superlight, Robert Nearn (EVO magazine 07/2000)

    7:56 --- 155.798 km/h -- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale, 425 PS/1387 kg (sport auto 02/2004)

    7:56 --- 155.798 km/h -- Porsche 996 Turbo, 420 PS/1569 kg (sport auto 06/2000)

    7:56 --- 155.798 km/h -- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (company test driver Dave Hill)

    7:57 --- 155.472 km/h -- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600PS/1558 kg (sport auto 05/1998)

    7:59 --- 154.822 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting "Performance", (Walter Röhrl WHEELS 06/ 2004)

    7:59 --- 154.822 km/h -- Nissan Skyline R33 GT-R, Dirk Schoymans (Autocar magazine 1997)

    8:02 --- 154.338 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting "Sport", (Walter Röhrl WHEELS 06/ 2004)

    8:03 --- 153.540 km/h -- Porsche 911 GT3, 360 PS/1391 kg (sport auto 08/1999)

    8:04 --- 153.223 km/h -- Lamborghini Diablo GT, 575 PS/1620 kg (sport auto 07/2000)

    8:05 --- 152.907 km/h -- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1, 580 PS/1820 kg (sport auto 12/2002)

    8:05 --- 152.907 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM settino "Standard", Walter Röhrl (WHEELS 06/2004)

    8:05 --- 152.907 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, 355PS/1461kg (sport auto 05/2005), http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=36440

    8:05 --- 152.907 km/h - Ruf CTR, >>> http://www.lad.lv/~martini/porsche/Videos/RUF-CTR_Nurburgring1.wmv

    8:06 --- 152.592 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (sport auto 04/2002)

    8:06 --- 152.592 km/h -- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn

    8:07 --- 152.279 km/h - Ferrari 550 Maranello, 485 PS/1724 kg (sport auto 06/1998)

    8:09 --- 151.656 km/h -- Honda NSX-R, 320 PS/1467 kg (sport auto 08/2002)

    8:09 --- 151.656 km/h -- Ferrari 360 Modena , 400 PS/1464 kg (sport auto 10/1999)

    8:09 --- 151.656 km/h -- Lamborghini Diablo SV, 520 PS/1590 kg (sport auto 12/1997)

    8:10 --- 151.114 km/h - Aston Martin V8 Vantage (Top Gear feb,2005)

    8:10 --- 151.114 km/h -- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411 PS/1567 kg (sport auto 10/1997)

    8:10 --- 151.347 km/h -- Donkervoort D8 180R, 210 PS/650 kg (sport auto 03/2001)

    8:11* -- 151,274 km/h - Porsche Cayman S, 295 PS/1340 kg, test driver Walter Roehrl (*mfr.) (sport auto 07/2005)

    8:12 --- 150.732 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG, 476 PS/1651 kg (sport auto 04/2002)

    8:12 --- 150.732 km/h -- Porsche 993 Turbo (sport auto 03/1997)

    8:12 --- 150.732 km/h -- Porsche 993 Turbo works tuning (sport auto 06/1997)

    8:13 --- 150.426 km/h -- BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg (sport auto 12/2004), http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=13956

    8:13 --- 150.426 km/h -- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS/1324 kg (sport auto 05/1999)

    8:13 --- 150.426 km/h -- Dodge Viper SRT-10, 506 hp (sport auto, 10/2004)

    8:14 --- 150.120 km/h - Mercedes SL 65 AMG, 612 PS/2049 kg (sport auto 01/2005), http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=23337

    8:15 --- 149.818 km/h - Alpina Roadster S, 300 PS/1416 kg (sport auto 6/2005), >>> http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=44295

    8:15* -- 149.818 km/h -- Holden GTS (2000), *estimated

    8:15 --- 149.818 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera 2 (Walter Röhrl - WHEELS 06/2004)

    8:15 --- 149.818 km/h -- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 hp

    8:16 --- 149.516 km/h -- AC-Schnitzer M3 CLS II E36, 350 PS (sport auto 11/1997)

    8:16 --- 149.516 km/h -- AC-Schnitzer V8 Topster, 450 PS/1557kg (sport auto 01/2005) http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=18724

    8:16 --- 149.516 km/h -- Aston Martin DB9, 457hp (sport auto 11/2004) http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=10114

    8:16 --- 149.516 km/h -- Mitsubishi Lancer EVO IX (best motoring video 14)

    8:17 --- 149.215 km/h -- Aston Martin V12 Vanquish, 515 PS/1775 kg (sport auto 01/2003)

    8:17 --- 149.215 km/h -- Porsche 911 Carrera, 320 PS/1399 kg (sport auto 06/2001)

    8:17 --- 149.215 km/h -- Porsche 996 Carrera 2, 320 PS/1399 kg (sport auto 02/2001)

    8:18 --- 149.916 km/h -- BMW Z8, 400PS/1651 kg (sport auto 08/2000)

    8:18 --- 149.916 km/h -- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (sport auto 09/2003)

    8:18 --- 149.916 km/h -- Ferrari F355, 380 PS/1350 kg (sport auto 06/1997)

    Feb 19, 2006 7:40:32 PM

    SteveD
    Co-Pilot
    SteveD
    Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom
    Posts: 247, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 18, 2003
    Reply to: mish

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    I believe it was Mattias Ekblom who drove a GT3RS back to back with an M3 CSL fitted with Ohlins dampers, bigger brakes and the wider front-tyres. I've got copies of the article that was published in a Swedish Magazine. If I remember correctly he managed to lap the modified CSL more quickly than the GT3RS which still strikes me as an impressive feat.

    Feb 19, 2006 8:06:22 PM

    Rafael from Spain
    Junior
    Rafael from Spain
    Loc: Madrid, Spain
    Posts: 73, Gallery
    Registered on: May 16, 2005
    Reply to: mish

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    mish said:
    Quote:
    Rafael from Spain said:
    Quote:
    mish said:
    Lol Throt...that's RC's car... Where's the Granny by the way? That's the best PS ever!!

    Well, that's the problem here - why should we have to bring in the $130k 997 Turbo to even stand a chance against the M?

    I would be embarassed to try to race any M with a 997 's'....can you imagine what would happen given that the 996 TT got s.m.o.k.e.d.....


    Come on Porsche, it's time to give us 'S' Owners a foothold against the M engines WITHOUT having to fork out an arm and a leg. Our 'S' cost more than an M but without the same performance...that's not right!!





    Look at the Top Gear episode where the 997S simply smokes an M6 in a real road.

    Drag racing is for dragsters, not cars. Get a shopping trolley and fit it with a rocket, there you have straight line performance at a cheap price.

    Come on is time to forget about straight line times and think about overall performance.

    The new M3 will be a good car but not a real sports car. At the end no matter how you look at it is a 3-series coupe with better engine, brakes, diff and suspension. It is not design from scratch to make the best possible sports car. It is just the best they can do with the 3 series platform.

    Cheers





    Rafael, I saw that TG episode, however, I am a little dubious as to the results because of the pelting rain! The conditions were horrific and certainly not useful when properly comparing the 2 cars.

    I would like to see the real results when the conditions are normal.






    Rain just makes difference more substancial. It lets you see the chassis faults more clearly.

    I was surprise about the HUGE difference, and of course it has nothing to do with the PCCB as they try to claim. PCCB has almost no effect on 1 lap or such a short distance. (0.2 sec max) Of course if it was dry, the M6 could have use more of its power and close the gap a little bit, but in the end it depends too much on the type of road/track.

    What I was trying to say is that I do not really care if a car is faster than another past 300HP on a 1.5 Ton car. What I like is the feel and the emotions the chassis send you while driving, not if it is 2/10th of a second faster or slower than another car.

    I am young but have had the luck and chance to drive some really nice road cars and some racing ones. Road and racing cars has nothing to do. In racing you are going against the clock, so loosing steering feel against more agressive tyres or using a sequencial gearbox to gain some hundreds of a seconds per lap has a point. Not in a road car for me.

    When I see all the talk about Manual vs Triptronic vs PDK/SMG/F1 and how people say if Tip is faster I will choose it, I do not really understand, if you where going to race for money with it ok, but why else?. Lets put it in anoher way, if at racing, a fully automated car was allowed (no driver), it is sure that it would be faster than any man-driven one. So, if there was a 997TT with automated steering and throttle control would you buy it because it is 2 second faster from 0-150mph or round the nurburgring than Walter Rohl driving a full manual car?

    I know my answer. Live the seconds and automatics to professional drivers. Give me a 1973 RS and let me enjoy my over 9 min lap time around the Ring

    Feb 19, 2006 8:17:22 PM

    SoCal Alan
    Rennteam VIP
    SoCal Alan
    Loc: Orange County , United States
    Posts: 7268, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 6, 2004
    Reply to: Rafael from Spain

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    Quote:
    Rafael from Spain said:
    When I see all the talk about Manual vs Triptronic vs PDK/SMG/F1 and how people say if Tip is faster I will choose it, I do not really understand, if you where going to race for money with it ok, but why else?. Lets put it in anoher way, if at racing, a fully automated car was allowed (no driver), it is sure that it would be faster than any man-driven one. So, if there was a 997TT with automated steering and throttle control would you buy it because it is 2 second faster from 0-150mph or round the nurburgring than Walter Rohl driving a full manual car?

    I know my answer. Live the seconds and automatics to professional drivers. Give me a 1973 RS and let me enjoy my over 9 min lap time around the Ring



    Different people want different things. There are a lot of us who would like to have both the best balanced car and the best acceleration. You don't have to have one or the other. And acceleration in a vehicle may mean more to a person in the U.S. than in Europe. Granted, there are those here in the U.S. who don't care as much about a few tenths of a second in terms of acceleration as others. That's fine. But that doesn't mean it's not important to us that do care. And just because you can't really use it "legally" doesn't mean that it's not nice to have, knowing that it has the "potential". That's also important. The real question is why was the manual so dominating in terms of 0-100, 0-200 kmh times in the 996TT and then all of a sudden the world was turned upside down and the tip destroys the manual?

    Feb 19, 2006 9:54:00 PM

    ResB Offline
    Rennteam Pro
    ResB
    Loc: Yorkshire, where roads are twisty... , United Kingdom
    Posts: 2858, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 19, 2006
    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: M Engines vs Porsche's finest.........

    More BHP is not the be all and end all as we all know. Take the M6, AM and 997CS road test Top Gear did for example. Now I'm not saying they are the most unbiased TV programme in the world, but in the wet and over that short distance the 997 came on top in that particular test. Although the M6 was some 140BHP more than the 997 it couldn't apply the power to the road in the most efficient manner. Had the Top Gear team carried out a standing Qtr race against the clock, with the same tyres etc, you would have thought that the M6 would nip it.

    Funnily enough, my local shop isn't on a 1/4 mile straight, there are thankfully, lots of nice tight turns and hairpins. Don't panic people, I know quite a number of M owners and they would all like to have a 911.

    [edit]

    The M5 vs 996 Turbo with X50 510 hp video show the Porsche with it's window down, just think of the drag.
     
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