Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO - Page1

Feb 14, 2006 9:42:56 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005

TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

I thought that this was MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT and it was buried inside a 100+ post thread so decided to put it here. Thanks CF

Quote:
CF said:
I was so puzzled about this Tiptronic so I made some calls and got this Info.

Posted times ARE in fact reversed!

Once again,THE POSTED ACCELERATION TIMES has mistakingly been reversed when published on the Porsche website and in the info sent out to prospective customers!

Order has been restored

It should read 0-100: 3,7 manual and 3.9 Tip
0-200: 12.2 manual and 12.8 Tip!!!

Huzzahhh!!

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Feb 14, 2006 9:45:57 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Hurst

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Hurray!

Its not that close to April First is it?

So what is the body count inside Porsche's PR, Web and Marketing departments?

Todays posting blizzard should be a warning to them!

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Feb 14, 2006 9:49:19 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Hurst

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Quote:
Hurst said:
I thought that this was MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT and it was buried inside a 100+ post thread so decided to put it here. Thanks CF

Quote:
CF said:
I was so puzzled about this Tiptronic so I made some calls and got this Info.

Posted times ARE in fact reversed!

Once again,THE POSTED ACCELERATION TIMES has mistakingly been reversed when published on the Porsche website and in the info sent out to prospective customers!

Order has been restored

It should read 0-100: 3,7 manual and 3.9 Tip
0-200: 12.2 manual and 12.8 Tip!!!

Huzzahhh!!

Overboost on or overboost off?
In the Finnish snowfields or on dry asphalt?
With LSD in the manual?
Is somebody from the Porsche executive board logged on to rennteam who can surreptitiously post a clarification?

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Feb 14, 2006 9:49:48 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

So can someone in US confirm with PCNA they screwed up? I'm in Moscow at the moment and Porsche Russia is shut!!

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Feb 14, 2006 9:52:18 PM

Nick_Athens: Senior; Loc: Greece , Greece; Posts: 710, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2004; Reply to: john999s

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

WE have first to confirm this before we post it to rennteam... RC will kill us if this is wrong...

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Feb 14, 2006 9:55:56 PM

Red430: Junior; Loc: Texas; Posts: 88, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 15, 2004; Reply to: Hurst

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Quote:
Hurst said:
I thought that this was MONUMENTALLY IMPORTANT and it was buried inside a 100+ post thread so decided to put it here. Thanks CF

Quote:
CF said:
I was so puzzled about this Tiptronic so I made some calls and got this Info.

Posted times ARE in fact reversed!

Once again,THE POSTED ACCELERATION TIMES has mistakingly been reversed when published on the Porsche website and in the info sent out to prospective customers!

Order has been restored

It should read 0-100: 3,7 manual and 3.9 Tip
0-200: 12.2 manual and 12.8 Tip!!!

Huzzahhh!!

Porsche has yet to revise their press release on their official site.

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Feb 14, 2006 10:07:38 PM

ztnedman1: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 22, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2004; Reply to: Red430

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

PLEASE be true. Sounds more like it should be. Lol cant wait for it to be true and half the people change their tip orders to manual again hahahahahahah

I hope its true...

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Feb 14, 2006 10:09:39 PM

SeattleGT3: Pilot; Loc: WA , United States; Posts: 431, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: Red430

What this is called is a rumor

Its been in the mags on the web site, and in multiple places on the web site. No one should get excited about this. We call this wishful thinking or a rumor, where I come from. Don't hold your breadth.

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Feb 14, 2006 10:11:14 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: SeattleGT3

Re: What this is called is a rumor

Until actual FACTORY clarification of the numbers, I suggest that the original Tiptronic numbers given are still valid.

As sad as that is!

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Feb 14, 2006 10:11:30 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Quote:
Aisxos said:
WE have first to confirm this before we post it to rennteam... RC will kill us if this is wrong...

I don't "kill" anybody. I just find it strange that up til now hundreds of people, including Porsche officials, engineers, dealers, journalists, etc. had these specs in their hands for weeks and months and nobody really questioned them. And now suddenly...specs are not right? C'mon...I don't say it cannot happen but it is very unlikely, as much as I would love it to be true.

Remember by the way the articles in those car magazines BEFORE the official press release? They were actually stating the same (with the exception of one I think).

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Feb 14, 2006 11:36:24 PM

Trundle_GT3: Veteran; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 1016, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

The Porsche AG press release also has the Tip faster and the wording is of particular interest....

Quote:
These improvements are translated into driving performance. The new 911 Turbo with six-speed manual transmission requires 3.9 seconds for the standard sprint from zero to 100 km/h. The coupé reaches the 200 km/h mark in 12.8 seconds. And just 3.8 seconds are all it takes for the most powerful series-built 911 model of all time to accelerate from 80 to 120 km/h in fifth gear. Despite these enhanced performance statistics, Porsche developers succeeded in reducing average fuel consumption by one tenth to 12.8 liters per 100 kilometers.

The 911 Turbo with the optionally available Tiptronic S automatic transmission puts in an even more impressive performance An optimized setup gives the vehicle the wherewithal to power from zero to one hundred in just 3.7 seconds and to reach 200 km/h after a mere 12.2 seconds.

Seems the tip just may be the quicker

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Feb 14, 2006 11:56:25 PM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: Trundle_GT3

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

But they are not saying the tip managed a faster 0-60 or something, by one tenth of a second, do u realize that based on manual performance in the past, the tip from the standard 997 just to 60 is over a half second faster in shifting? it was about .3 seconds slower before (in tips S on carrera etc) and here it is .3 faster????? must be wrong, an auto puts less power down...period:)

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Feb 15, 2006 12:10:24 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: bostonmini

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Quote:
bostonmini said:
But they are not saying the tip managed a faster 0-60 or something, by one tenth of a second, do u realize that based on manual performance in the past, the tip from the standard 997 just to 60 is over a half second faster in shifting? it was about .3 seconds slower before (in tips S on carrera etc) and here it is .3 faster????? must be wrong, an auto puts less power down...period:)

Bostonmini,

There are two rational ways to explain this "ueber-Tip" tranny:
1. There is a re-working of the torque converter which, in conjunction with the excellent torque-generation of the engine and VTG's at low-rev's., produces a tremendous improvement in accleration, AND
2. The traditional 6-speed manual clutch/flywheel setup to translate all that prodigious torque from low-rev's. to the drivetrain puts mechanical stresses on the system so Porsche limits the overboost (possibly to a smaller rev-range) or the engine timing to minimize clutch failure. Combined, these two phenomena yield improvement in the 997TT accel. times versus the 996TT/TTS times, but the "ueber-Tip" benefits relatively more.

Alternatively, the manual times are even more conservative than traditional Porsche conservatism, but not likely. Nor can I believe that the Tip/manual numbers are an "error" or fabrication. I believe that the Tip is BOTH mechanically engineered and computer programmed to be superior to the manual. My own bias is to use initial 997TT buyers as "guinea pigs" (sorry all

) to render their reviews of the two cars. My advice to the guinea pigs out there is, if in SERIOUS doubt about Tip, and if adventuresome re, tuning, get the manual and tune it, OR await the powerkit and/or PDK/PDCS (if the latter makes it to the Turbo). There ARE going to be upgraded clutches designed for the 997TT to handle 800Nm+ torque, if not from the factory, then from legit. tuners.

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Feb 15, 2006 12:16:19 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Al, you're missing one important thing here. The VTG technology and the electronically controlled AWD.
I still think that even for tuning purposes, the Tiptronic choice is the better one. If I'm wrong, I probably made the wrong decision but remember that my decisions aren't only based on my personal clues (because I'm usually clueless

) but on hints from "friends". And now I shut up.

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Feb 15, 2006 12:25:59 AM

GT: Senior; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 618, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 14, 2006; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

errr.. no. A typical Sachs sports clutch can handle 850NM of torque with no problem what so ever in my car. And this is just a reinforced Sachs clutch that costs a few euros more than the porsche one, feels almost exactly the same as stock- if not a bit better- and has been around for a few years now. So the excuse that the torque is SO great that the transmision would not hold is just not true. FYI I ve heard of people using that clutch for 100k kms before they change on tuned cars. So there's no such issue I am afraid. The reason for tip being faster must be elsewhere.

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Feb 15, 2006 12:27:48 AM

twin turbo: Junior; Loc: london uk; Posts: 70, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 29, 2005; Reply to: RC

Feb 15, 2006 12:46:08 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: GT

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Quote:
GT said:
errr.. no. A typical Sachs sports clutch can handle 850NM of torque with no problem what so ever in my car. And this is just a reinforced Sachs clutch that costs a few euros more than the porsche one, feels almost exactly the same as stock- if not a bit better- and has been around for a few years now. So the excuse that the torque is SO great that the transmision would not hold is just not true. FYI I ve heard of people using that clutch for 100k kms before they change on tuned cars. So there's no such issue I am afraid. The reason for tip being faster must be elsewhere.

I don't know how you drive your car (I suppose a tuned 996 Turbo) but I may give you a good friend as an example: he got his fourth or fifth clutch in his 600 HP Turbo and if you want to know the reason, it is pretty simple: he wanted to have a special motronic programming with a lot of torque at lower/mid rev ranges. Deadly for every clutch, especially like this guy is driving his car. Last time we met at Sportec in Switzerland, he was driving circles (literally) around my former 997 Carrera S.

And his clutch was finished again.
Suggestion from the Tuner: lowering boost pressure in the lower/mid range, loosing some torque (and a lot of fun) and raising power slightly in the upper rev range. My friend refused, so the next clutch is due soon.

The clutch he uses is specced up to 850 Nm too, I suppose it is the same part you're using.

Now take the 997 Turbo with 680 Nm at 2100 rpm (overboost).
Most 911 Turbo drivers I know let the clutch come after 1500 rpm, some even later. Imagine how much stress this means to the clutch disc and pressure plate. You "sports clutch" can handle "up to maximum 850 Nm" of torque, this doesn't mean it can handle 850 Nm of torque all the time at all rev ranges.

And of course this is not the reason why Tip is faster, we explained it in an earlier thread: the CAN bus is the secret in our opinion. The perfect communication between the engine black box, AWD black box, PSM/PST black box, PASM black box and tiptronic black box. In conjunction with the new VTG technology, this allows perfect traction with minimal slip, precise boost and power output, providing the best possible acceleration time. This is actually the only thing which makes sense. And of course some minor improvements Porsche may have achieved in auto tranny adaptation to the whole system.

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Feb 15, 2006 1:04:51 AM

GT: Senior; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 618, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 14, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Sounds just right, thats what Ueli was telling me as well (my car is a stage 2 sportec). However its too much fun having a "steep" torque curve and I could not resist.. As a matter of fact I had Ueli reprogram the ecu in my car so that I get an overboost and NOT a flat torque curve. I know its not the way it should be but.. could not resist it.
As for the way I drive the car, unfortunately I live in london these days and I drive everyday to work so I can't push the car like I like to. However during the summers I take the car to europe where I drive it the way it was meant to be driven. (it hits 320km/h on french/german highways almost every w/e with plenty of cornering ut sadly no track days). This clutch has lasted 25k miles so far over 2 years and still going strong. However I understand that if your friend abuses the clutch like you say then its normal to go through a couple per year.

Re tip performance I see your point. I really hope the first roadtests show different results that the press release suggests..

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Feb 15, 2006 5:34:51 AM

Super Darius: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Italy-Como , Italy; Posts: 4084, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: GT

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

UAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
CF tell me that you are not joking!!

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Feb 15, 2006 3:19:33 PM

intouch1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Red Sea , Egypt; Posts: 5752, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2004; Reply to: Super Darius

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Tip IS faster ! nuff said.

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Feb 15, 2006 3:55:34 PM

Kappa: Newbie; Loc: Italia; Posts: 3, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2006; Reply to: intouch1

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Sigh and sobh ---

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Feb 15, 2006 6:08:10 PM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

RC - it sounds like the Tip may effectively benefit from a new "Launch Control" to optimize rpm, gearchange, over-boost, 4wd-split, etc...

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Feb 15, 2006 6:24:13 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: Boxster Coupe GTS

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

I wouldn't exactly call the gearbox in the SLR and the CLK DTM slow, both of them are 5-speed.
They both have extremely fast downshifts and upshifts, and you don't really feel the need for any additional gears since they both have lots of torque at hand just like the Turbo!

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Feb 15, 2006 7:01:29 PM

BD 997: Veteran; Loc: Boston, MA USA; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 16, 2005; Reply to: CF

Re: TIP/AUTO TIMES NEW INFO

Quote:
CF said:
I wouldn't exactly call the gearbox in the SLR and the CLK DTM slow, both of them are 5-speed.
They both have extremely fast downshifts and upshifts, and you don't really feel the need for any additional gears since they both have lots of torque at hand just like the Turbo!

very true...I completely forgot that the SLR has only 5 gears....

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What this is called is a rumor

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