Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry? - Page1

Feb 15, 2006 6:31:23 PM

bstew: Expert; Loc: NC, USA; Posts: 1797, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: maquimike

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

Quote:
maquimike said:
Bottom line -- if you can afford a $100k car, and you want a thrilling experience when you DRIVE IT EVERYDAY, you cannot beat a Porsche 911. And the 997 is the best 911 ever built, for a DRIVER. "Enthusiasts" are a different breed of animal...

Very good point.

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Feb 15, 2006 6:31:26 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: maquimike

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

I find the fact that this debate is even happening incredible.

Saying things like Porsches don't feel special anymore or that it's a mass produced car which has lost its exclusivity are misleading statements. Any car which has more than 1 example is 'mass produced'. It isn't unique. How many the numbers actually are is just a question of degree. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just elitist in peddling exclusivity as some objectively meaningful attribute.

How a car feels TO YOU is an entirely subjective feeling. You may feel one way about Porsches while other people may feel totally differently. How 'special' a Porsche feels to you depends on you, your values, hopes, expectations etc.

Nostalgia for the past is a deceptive thing. We always remember the good things fondly but we can tend to forget the bad things. It's human nature. We might remember past cars with more fondness for how they were but we shouldn't use that to belittle what cars are like now. They are just different.

Crucially, we are all in a state of flux too. I am not the man I was when I bought my last car. Neither are any of you. What is important to me has changed. So if I'm different, there is no unchanging yardstick to compare what the old cars offer against the new cars.

Most importantly, I think it's a highly suspect exercise in futility to debate whether somehow Porsches have lost their 'specialness' (whatever that means to each of us) and whether other brands haven't when only a minority of people on this planet can actually afford to buy such cars. It's a debate which only the rich have the luxury of engaging in. Less fortunate people would give their right arm to have a Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lamborghini or even a Mercedes, BMW or Lexus...anything, absolutely anything just as long as it's better than what they currently feel they are 'putting up with'.

As such, vanity, ego, arrogance are more at play in this kind of debate than any cold, hard analysis.

I just think that we're on this earth for a short while so have fun while you can in any (legal) way that pleases you. Who cares what other people think?! Enjoy your car. Your earned the cash. Your deserve it.

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Feb 15, 2006 8:57:47 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

Thanks easy_rider911,

You said: "I find the fact that this debate is even happening incredible."

Absolutely ----- in big and especially small cities in Canada, and even the US, the presence of Porsches is not THAT frequent! While the vanity of some of the wealthy will never be satisfied, for the majority, Porsche remains an extraordinary vehicle line. Their management-decisions have recently been excellent -----

Every time I drove my NSX 1996-2005 it was very special, and the same applies, for some different reasons, to my 997 PASM.
We are fortunate to be able to drive and enjoy such extraordinary cars...............

KiwiCanuck

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Feb 16, 2006 1:50:35 PM

Kev_997: Newbie; Loc: UK - Manchester; Posts: 47, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 26, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

visited my OPC yesterday to 'familiarise' myself with the 997c2s that I am picking up on 1st March

. I did however pick up some info from the salesman that has prompted me to enter into this debate, and that info relates to Porsche tracker. When I ordered my car, all the options I put onto it were MY choices, I did not have to have them - I wanted them because they will add value to my experience of porsche ownership. I also ordered a tracker (non porsche) to be fitted because if it gets stolen I want it found before someone has screwed it around for a few days and wrecked it.

The OPC wanted nearly Pounds300 over the retail price for fitting the unit (which I think is a rip off as the OPC adds no value to the fitting process), so I have arranged for a non porsche fitter to put it in (@ retail price) at the OPC. The OPC informed me yesterday that going forward, porsche will not allow them them to fit non porsche trackers AT ALL as it will invalidate the warranty

- In my mind, it is this attitude that pi

es people off. luckily i am sorted, although I don't know where this leaves me on the warranty.

So if you want the most popular tracking device available in the U.K, you can't have it from now on - unless you want to invalidate part of your warranty. Oh - and you have to pay over the odds (Pounds1300 for porsche version .v. Pounds700 for non porsche tracker horizon) to have the porsche version!!!! - This is why some might consider Porsche to be money grabbing - and to be honest - as a first time owner, it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth (even though I have not been forced down the porsche tracker route, others will be).

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Feb 16, 2006 5:59:13 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Kev_997

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

What's the difference between them? Is the Porsche one a rebadged Tracker unit or is it something else? Because insurers I spoke to insist on an approved device and the only one I seemed to find was Tracker itself. Even Porsche Insurance (broker) insist on it.

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Feb 16, 2006 6:26:50 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: john999s

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

AFAIK it's a very recent change. Once Porsche's own vehicle tracking system is up and running, Porsche will insist that only that system is fitted. Insurance companies are still (in many cases) requiring a tracker device (and not necessarily the device made by the Tracker company itself). It will take them time to catch up with what Porsche is going to require in future.

Very importantly, in the UK, option code 674 (Preparation for Vehicle Tracking System) is standard UK specification. It isn't listed as a UK standard spec item in the price list (along with full leather interior and 567 tinted grey windscreen top) but it is listed in the 997 standard specification list i.e. it's a bit buried away!

When you compare the UK spec list with the German one line by line (like I did) it becomes clear that in other EU countries 674 isn't standard. I've ordered my 997S in Germany and I had to pay 80 Euros extra (exc tax) for it.

Also, NB AFAIK the Porsche system is a genuinely pan-European system. The Tracker system primarily covers the UK (although if I'm mistaken, please do correct me). No doubt Porsche is adding its own heavy profit margin here as well. Also I am sure their yearly subscription will be more expensive too.

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Feb 16, 2006 6:31:19 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

Thanks easy.
Oh well, I suppose it's another 'you must have this to keep its value' thing. Better add it to the list for the GT3. I wonder if they do one in Carbon??!!!

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Feb 16, 2006 7:54:34 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Kev_997

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

Quote:
Kev_997 said:
The OPC informed me yesterday that going forward, porsche will not allow them them to fit non porsche trackers AT ALL as it will invalidate the warranty - In my mind, it is this attitude that pi es people off. luckily i am sorted, although I don't know where this leaves me on the warranty.

So if you want the most popular tracking device available in the U.K, you can't have it from now on - unless you want to invalidate part of your warranty. Oh - and you have to pay over the odds (Pounds1300 for porsche version .v. Pounds700 for non porsche tracker horizon) to have the porsche version!!!! - This is why some might consider Porsche to be money grabbing - and to be honest - as a first time owner, it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth (even though I have not been forced down the porsche tracker route, others will be).

By chance, I have heard the background story to Porsche invalidating warranty repair of electrical problems arising with cars fitted with after-market tracker systems.

They suffered a series of mysterious electric/ electronic system failures, which were eventually traced to irregularities resulting from installation of untested - and therefore non-approved - after-market tracker systems.

I think this was mentioned in a thread somewhere here on rennteam.com.

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Feb 16, 2006 8:29:04 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: So which argument are we really pursuing?

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
Le Chef said:

What is wrong with being a "mainstream" manufacturer? Does that make Toyota and Honda bad?

Le Chef in the past you and I have disagree on many things. But I must tell the above statement encapulates the core issue and Porsche philosophy. They are the Honda's and Toyota's of the sport car world!

The problem is Porsche pricing is far above the conpanies you compare them to. Today to get into a Turbo with a few options will cost close to $150,000. What for a mainstream Toyota?

Take the case of the early 997 buyer. With some options it would cost close to $80,000. However there is a bigger problem. They introduced the S which will out-perform the base 997. Shortly after, that they introduced the S with a Power kit which will out perform the S. Shortly after that, they introduced the Cayman which is close to out performing the 997. Now we have the GT3 which will out perform the powerkit S and also have the Turbo which will out perform perform them all.

Now back to the poor smuck who bought the base 997. He must now either keep his less than stellar performing car in the Porscche lineup or trade up and take a hosing in depreciation. In a word, he is totally screwed.

But the investors are estatic.

I'd rather be the Honda of sports cars than Ferrari being the Fiat of sports cars

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Feb 17, 2006 8:43:07 AM

PandaMan: Senior; Loc: Canada , Vancouver; Posts: 503, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2006; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: So which argument are we really pursuing?

people have too much money nowadays so thats why you see prosches everywhere. Go to some poor third worl country and they'll be struck in Awe from a toyota.

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Feb 17, 2006 1:24:57 PM

Wolvy: Junior; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 119, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 4, 2003; Reply to: Kev_997

Re: Is Porsche getting too money hungry?

I had this problem with Tracker. Dealer wanted several hundred pounds more for exactly the same thing, so I arranged for Tracker to fit it at dealer before I picked it up. Dealer phoned couple of days before it was due to be fitted to say it couldn't be done on site as the guy wasn't insured to be on site. Total BS!

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