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    Re: nick

    I enjoy bashing Nick as well as the next guy but I think at times it gets way to personal and strays from the essential Porsche/Ferrari wars that generally start the thread. I also think at times the bashing misstates the facts. In this matter Nick is not the plaintiff's attorney and has defended the Keaton family. The keaton family through his estate is a named defendant and Nick got the insurance company to indemnify the Keaton family and represent them against the plaintiff's attorney and the Rudl family. Which is a HUGE deal for the well being of Ben's family. How would you like to be Ben's widow and have a monthly attorney bill of several thousand coming in every month and wondering if a judgement for possibly seven figures is entered againts Ben's estate where all the money was going to come from to pay it?? I would imagine she has enough to deal with right now without that nightmare?

    I have noticed over the years Nick doesn't spend a lot of time writing or organizing his posts on this and other Porsche forums. He tends from my observation to rush through them and sometimes they don't come out exactly they way he wants them too. I Think he looks at these forums as socializing and relaxing and his statements due in large part to his own lack of time are sometimes misconstrued.

    I also think Nick truly believes (although he can speak for himself quite well) that the CGT is unstable at high speeds and some form of a design flaw exists. I think Nick would not be surprised if during discovery in this suit the Plaintiff's attorney discovered a smoking gun document related to poor handling like in the previous 930 suit? I think Nick blames this perceived handling design flaw on the death of his friend Ben Keaton.

    I also think Nick believes that Porsche should have been required to install more driver computer aids since Porsche didn't require any form of racing license or driver experience requirements before a prospective purchaser could buy a CGT. I think he disagree's with the fact that anyone with a checkbook could buy a CGT without regard to skill level on a car that he believes requires great skill to drive at speed due to a lack of computer assist driver aids.

    As an owner of a CGT with years of seat time in various race cars and years of racing experience I believe the CGT to be the best handling car I have ever driven without any design flaw whatsoever.

    One dynamic to this lawsuit that concerns me is what were the expectations of Corey Rudl when he entered Ben's car as a passenger? Did Corey think he was getting an easy demo ride around the track or a full race lap at the limit of Ben's skill capablities? I don't know what Corey thought he was getting into when he chose to ride along as a passenger in Ben's car and that is an issue for this suit to resolve?

    To some extent I can understand why the Rudl family would want to know if he was killed due to a Porsche CGT design flaw or a concrete barrier to close to the run off area or the pure incomptetence of another driver or corner worker.

    Let's all note that Ben's estate is NOT a plaintiff in this action against Porsche. I don't think it's that unreasonable for the Rudl estate to want some more answers at this point. Although it is sad and ugly for all the familes involved. We might also remember the Rudl family attorney doesn't get paid unless he wins a judgement and I can't see Porsche paying any form of settlement without being proven negligent at trial so this has a long way to go. Many, many years of litigation ahead.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I sincerely hope you decide not to pursue this case, otherwise the view of you among members of this board might drastically change for the worse.



    I am not sure my reputation can get any worse.

    Unfortunately I am unable to respond to your other comments.

    BTW, the passenger has already brought suit against Porsche and it is being handled by the attorney who sued Porsche twice on the 930 and they paid twice.




    In case Porsche loses this lawsuit, it will be a loss for american drivers since Porsche will probably avoid any future risk by simply halting sales of several of its models in the US (GT2, GT3).



    Btw, you said the plaintiff is already suing Porsche with the help of the "930" lawyer, but you refrained from answering any other questions.

    Does that mean that you, Nick, will represent Mrs. Keatons?



    You mean if she decides to sue? That will be up to her.

    Porsche will continue to sell performance cars. Hopefully it will make Porsche offer safety devices, possibly screen buyers or require training. Do you realize the CGT is faster than some of the Indy race cars that A. J. Floyt drove and faster than the Le Mans cars driven by some of the past champions. They were required to have a special license and training to drive those cars.

    Jim, the track, the Ferrari club, the ferrari driver, the organizer of the event as well as Ben are named defendants.



    What is your point Nick? I got my driver licences both for a car and motor bike in the USA. I would arrgue that neither prepared me for driving a 911 or 600 something yamaha which I was now "goverment" apporved. Now I ask you what does a racing licence teach you. The fact that AJ can drive a racer has nothing to do with him having the ability to drive a Indy car. I bet that even you can pass a racing test without any prior study.

    All your arguments sound great on the surface but as so many legal arrguments I have heard over the years can serve either direction on a given point...

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Les. I doubt if Corey really gave it that much thought.

    I have been to drivers meetings, but Iv'e never heard of a passenger meeting where track rules and the inherent dangers and risks were explained. Usually passengers just sign a waiver and off they go without much reflection on the potential lethal consequences.

    Re: nick

    Les, well put.

    I did not intend to bash Nick, or join in any "bashing." Nick forcefully advocates the idea that others are responsible for the death of a fellow enthusiast on track; I think it is important - to the future of motorsports, track days and performance cars - to oppose him and the lawsuit referred to in this thread.

    Time to be blunt - if you participate in a dangerous sport - whether it's rock climbing or parachute jumping or cave diving or auto racing or any of many others - you ought to carry appropriate life insurance or make other provision for your family in the event you are injured or killed. Not to anticipate a clearly foreseeable injury is reprehensible.

    As I said before, if you can't accept the consequences, stay in the paddock. It's easy to be a "big boy" when you sign the waiver - much harder when you stand behind the wall and look at the wreckage of your car.

    Racing and performance driving are not for everyone. Perhaps, at the moment, there are too many weekend warriors.

    Re: nick

    WCH
    I agree with you in all respects. In this case it is not Ben's family but his passenger's family who has filed suit and I really wonder how that changes everything? Whether joy riding passengers assume the same risk as the driver??? When I was racing I told my family don't grieve for me if I get killed I knew what I was doing and loved doing it.

    I took my wife for her first ride in my CGT this weekend she was previously banned from a ride due to some prior comments by her when I bought the car about her not appreciating the beauty of the exhaust note sufficiently enough and she was only recently reinstated for passenger priviliges and she described the power and noise as scary fast the fastest car she has ever been in. And I again told her if I get myself killed in this thing understand I died doing what I love to do and know full well what I am getting myself into and not to blame anyone or sue anyone.

    cgt law suit

    Quote:
    WCH said:
    I think it is important - to the future of motorsports, track days and performance cars - to oppose the lawsuit referred to in this thread.
    if you participate in a dangerous sport - whether it's rock climbing or parachute jumping or cave diving or auto racing or any of many others - you ought to carry appropriate life insurance or make other provision for your family in the event you are injured or killed.


    i agree with WCH on the above statements.
    also i don't think this thread is really about bashing nick but more about saving the sport for those who enjoy it in it's current form.
    in the end it is going to be all of us that pay the bill. and we can only hope that the sport isn't damaged in the mean time.
    for surely afterward it will be more a more costly past time for us all!
    (the money has to come from somewhere)

    jeff

    Re: cgt law suit


    Re: cgt law suit


    Re: nick

    Quote:
    Les Quam said:
    I took my wife for her first ride in my CGT this weekend she was previously banned from a ride due to some prior comments by her when I bought the car about her not appreciating the beauty of the exhaust note sufficiently enough and she was only recently reinstated for passenger priviliges and she described the power and noise as scary fast the fastest car she has ever been in. And I again told her if I get myself killed in this thing understand I died doing what I love to do and know full well what I am getting myself into and not to blame anyone or sue anyone.


    LOL
    les, i have the same problem with my wife and sports cars. i gave her one ride in my last car (gt3) and banned her immediately afterward!:)
    i have yet to give her a ride in the new car (997s) even though she has begged many times.!:) although, today being valentines day maybe i will give her a short ride!:)

    jeff

    Re: cgt law suit

    People want to sue porsche for the car... Ill tell you what lets do a test and crash every car capable of 160mph into that wall and lets see the results... Gaurentee you the same outcome will happen everytime. Even race car drivers in cars that are ment to take a crash like that still die! why is it the cars fault. It was just a case of of things going wrong for a great guy at the same time. Unfortunatly this happens alot.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    brunner said:

    Later edit: from what i could find on the net, the SLR does have ESP (which kinda' fits with it's GTish character), but the Enzo doesn't.



    Correct:

    http://www.mbusa.com/models/features/spe...mp;class=06_SLR

    Some questions come to mind:

    Is the SLR ESP functional along its full speed range? Has it been real-world tested to function at 300+ km/h like the Veyron ESP which allegedly successfully passed the test at the Bonneville salt flats?

    http://www.autocarmagazine.com/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?RT=217427
    http://www.gizmag.co.uk/go/4070/5/
    http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=58942&bottom=0

    What about PSM version I (996TT) and PSM version II (997TT)? At what speed range are they functional and how have they been real-world tested at high speed?

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits


    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    i am obviously not a lawyer and don't know all the ins and outs so shouldnt really be commenting until do have more knowledge on the subject.
    i'm just worried about the possible fall out from such a suit.

    jeff

    Re: nick

    Quote:
    Les Quam said:
    WCH
    I agree with you in all respects. In this case it is not Ben's family but his passenger's family who has filed suit and I really wonder how that changes everything? Whether joy riding passengers assume the same risk as the driver??? When I was racing I told my family don't grieve for me if I get killed I knew what I was doing and loved doing it.

    I took my wife for her first ride in my CGT this weekend she was previously banned from a ride due to some prior comments by her when I bought the car about her not appreciating the beauty of the exhaust note sufficiently enough and she was only recently reinstated for passenger priviliges and she described the power and noise as scary fast the fastest car she has ever been in. And I again told her if I get myself killed in this thing understand I died doing what I love to do and know full well what I am getting myself into and not to blame anyone or sue anyone.


    I commend Nick for seeing after the Keaton family. I do think that he is pointing the attorneys for the Rudl family in Porsche direction. This is to go after deeper pockets than the Keaton family. He is trying to make the other side see the strategy. It is his job to take the heat off the Keaton family. I don't like his strategy, but I also would not like to be in that position. Between a rock and a hard place. I do not think that Porsche has a problem based on the known facts, but as Nick says "It will come out in court if there is a problem." I hope that there is not a problem and Porsche is cleared and the Keaton family is protected.

    Re: nick

    I would speculate the fallot would be that Porsche would not bring in the 997 GT2 to NA and that the 700 HP Viper would not be built nor the 600 HP Blue Devil Corvette unless they all had as many computer assisted driving aids as technology would allow.

    If a San Diego jury decides that the CGT has an aerodynamic design flaw that Porsche either missed or covered up it would relate only to Porsche. However if a jury decides it is irresonsible and negligent to sell a 600 HP car to anyone who can write a check regardless of their skill level then it would affect all supercar manufacturers I would think???

    If insurance companies decide it is cost prohibitve to insure such vehicles that also would reverberate through the supercar builders as well I would surmise??

    Your guess is as good as mine?

    Re: nick

    Quote:
    Les Quam said:
    I would speculate the fallot would be that Porsche would not bring in the 997 GT2 to NA and that the 700 HP Viper would not be built nor the 600 HP Blue Devil Corvette unless they all had as many computer assisted driving aids as technology would allow.

    If a San Diego jury decides that the CGT has an aerodynamic design flaw that Porsche either missed or covered up it would relate only to Porsche. However if a jury decides it is irresonsible and negligent to sell a 600 HP car to anyone who can write a check regardless of their skill level then it would affect all supercar manufacturers I would think???

    If insurance companies decide it is cost prohibitve to insure such vehicles that also would reverberate through the supercar builders as well I would surmise??

    Your guess is as good as mine?


    Any way you paint it, it is not pretty.

    Re: nick

    Try to imagine how Ben's wife must feel as she has to relive this nightmare over and over in the next few years and watch Ben's name get dragged through the mud in court?

    It's just horrifying to watch this unfold.

    Re: nick

    Quote:
    icon said:
    Quote:
    Les Quam said:
    I took my wife for her first ride in my CGT this weekend she was previously banned from a ride due to some prior comments by her when I bought the car about her not appreciating the beauty of the exhaust note sufficiently enough and she was only recently reinstated for passenger priviliges and she described the power and noise as scary fast the fastest car she has ever been in. And I again told her if I get myself killed in this thing understand I died doing what I love to do and know full well what I am getting myself into and not to blame anyone or sue anyone.


    LOL
    les, i have the same problem with my wife and sports cars. i gave her one ride in my last car (gt3) and banned her immediately afterward!:)
    i have yet to give her a ride in the new car (997s) even though she has begged many times.!:) although, today being valentines day maybe i will give her a short ride!:)

    jeff



    I've banned my father-in-law and wife from riding in the 997S for insisting that the 997S is nice but it's "not a Corvette".

    Since then, my wife has been asking to not only get her riding priviledges back in the 997S but to also drive it for the first time. I told her I'll let her drive it as long as I'm in the passenger seat. My father-in-law, however, is banned permanently.

    banned

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    icon said:
    Quote:
    Les Quam said:
    I took my wife for her first ride in my CGT this weekend she was previously banned


    i gave her one ride in my last car (gt3) and banned her immediately afterward!:)


    I've banned my father-in-law and wife from riding in the 997S for insisting that the 997S is nice but it's "not a Corvette"


    i think we better quit using the word banned in case the wives happen upon these posts!

    we might all get banned from the house!

    Re: banned

    That's not the only thing we'll get banned from!

    Re: banned

    This case is ultimately about the insurance companies not wanting to pay out the insured - not really about wanting to find out what happened. The catalyst is neither one of them want to pay out.
    Insurers are just as much to blame - if not more - than lawyers.

    Re: banned

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    This case is ultimately about the insurance companies not wanting to pay out the insured - not really about wanting to find out what happened. The catalyst is neither one of them want to pay out.
    Insurers are just as much to blame - if not more - than lawyers.


    what kind of coverage did the ben have?
    when were you informed the insurance company was not going to pay what the policy covered?

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    On a relatively slow course the Stig a F1 driver spun the CGT a number times to extract a timed lap. He subsequently drove the Enzo around the same track without incident and beat the CGT time.

    It is reported that Jay Leno (an experienced driver) lost control in a short straight away and spun several time thankfully not hitting any barriers. His experience is very reminicent of what happened to Ben and Ben was going at a slower speed.

    It is reported that W. Rorhl after taking a test drive, come in with an ashen face and INSISTED the car be equipped with some safety features.

    This car was designed for Le Mans and only after seeing some commercial prospects they detuned it and sold to non-professionals. Also, maybe Porsche recognize the designed was not suitable for Le Mans.

    Recently a CGT was sold by a Porsche dealer to a buyer who told them he did not know how to use a manual transmissions. What more do you need to open your eyes?




    This is just a replay of the Corvair case.

    The question is, should a manufacturer ever be liable for a defectively designed car? I suspect most here would answer no. I personally disagree. The Corvair was clearly a defectively designed car. The 930 also had some issues. We all know that.

    So is the CGT a defectively designed car? The automobile industry has come a long way since the Corvair and the 930. I would be very surprised if it is.

    But in this case there is a second issue. At what driving level must the car function in a normal and predictable fashion? Certainly if driven on the street at sane speeds it should handle and perform predictably. But what if it is being operated on a track by the likes of the Stig or Rorhl? Should it still be expected to handle in a benign fashion? I personally don't think so. Surely a high performance car being driven right at the edge of the performance envelope can be expected to require the skills of a driver who is more experienced than the average?

    So in my opinion, someone venturing out on to the race track in a high performance car should be on notice that what they are doing will require a much more highly tuned skill set than that needed by the average driver. Someone climbing in to the passenger seat should also be aware of this and the inherent risks.

    Stephen

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:The Corvair was clearly a defectively designed car.



    Stephen,

    You damage the credibility of your argument with this blanket statement.

    How old are you?

    Have you actually driven a Corvair?

    My sister's ex-husband used to RACE Corvairs in SCCA D-Production, in which Corvairs held the lap records at many tracks.

    The only similarity I see between Corvairs of the 1960s and the Carrera GT of today is what I'll call "the Ralph Nader effect".

    Ralph Nader was able to collect and distribute enough anecdotes and trumped-up pseudo-tests to tarnish the Corvair as an inherently evil-handling vehicle. Un-biased engineering tests of the day showed this to not be the case. My sixth grade teacher owned a Corvair that he thought drove like a sports car. He thought Nader's charges were ridiculous. We might call Nader's evidence "junk science" today.

    Ralph Nader was clever enough to commit jury tampering on a nation-wide scale. General Motors wanted to know who or what motivated Ralph Nader, and got exposed for trying to find out. Nader's best friends turned out to be trial lawyers.

    By constantly, and with inflammatory rhetoric, hammering away at the supposed safety issues presented by the Corvair's rear-engined design, the public as a whole gradually began to accept the idea that the Corvair was bad. Once that stage had been set, there was little that any voice of reason could do.

    Nader had fomented a giant PR campaign to talk down the Corvair similar to political smear campaigns of the era. After the campaign was in full swing, no jury in America could be selected that hadn't been poisoned by Nader's vitriol.

    There is a faint whiff of similarity to the Corvair smear that I detect in certain posters' inflammatory rhetoric about the Carrera GT. I'd hate to think that the motives were similar.

    Unintended acceleration in Audis, anybody?

    (Full disclosure = My father was graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering from General Motors Institute and I am a 20+ year member of the Society of Automotive Engineers.)

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Good post, Mike.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Icon, if the insurance companies are paying out why would anyone sue? I would suspect that both parties being successful have large insurance policies.
    If the insurance companies pay out the insurance policies there isn't a problem. It was an accident, I can't see anyone laying blame on anyone else EXCEPT for the insurance companies who have to pay out.
    The problem lies if the insurance policy is large, and in this case we potentially have 2 large policies. I'd bet that the insurance companies that have the coverage on the occupants of the GT don't want to pay out and to cover some of its "losses" it wants each other's policies AND any and all others related to the accident to cover some of the cost of their policy payout. My$.02.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    FixedWing said:The Corvair was clearly a defectively designed car.



    Stephen,

    You damage the credibility of your argument with this blanket statement.

    How old are you?

    Have you actually driven a Corvair?

    My sister's ex-husband used to RACE Corvairs in SCCA D-Production, in which Corvairs held the lap records at many tracks.

    The only similarity I see between Corvairs of the 1960s and the Carrera GT of today is what I'll call "the Ralph Nader effect".

    Ralph Nader was able to collect and distribute enough anecdotes and trumped-up pseudo-tests to tarnish the Corvair as an inherently evil-handling vehicle. Un-biased engineering tests of the day showed this to not be the case. My sixth grade teacher owned a Corvair that he thought drove like a sports car. He thought Nader's charges were ridiculous. We might call Nader's evidence "junk science" today.

    Ralph Nader was clever enough to commit jury tampering on a nation-wide scale. General Motors wanted to know who or what motivated Ralph Nader, and got exposed for trying to find out. Nader's best friends turned out to be trial lawyers.

    By constantly, and with inflammatory rhetoric, hammering away at the supposed safety issues presented by the Corvair's rear-engined design, the public as a whole gradually began to accept the idea that the Corvair was bad. Once that stage had been set, there was little that any voice of reason could do.

    Nader had fomented a giant PR campaign to talk down the Corvair similar to political smear campaigns of the era. After the campaign was in full swing, no jury in America could be selected that hadn't been poisoned by Nader's vitriol.

    There is a faint whiff of similarity to the Corvair smear that I detect in certain posters' inflammatory rhetoric about the Carrera GT. I'd hate to think that the motives were similar.

    Unintended acceleration in Audis, anybody?

    (Full disclosure = My father was graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering from General Motors Institute and I am a 20+ year member of the Society of Automotive Engineers.)


    Mike is right. Our friends and families come to us as knowledgable regarding cars. We need to stop any spins that do not make physical or logical sense. To be fair, I will not discount what Nick has to say until I see exactly what the claims are from the lawyers representing the Rudl family. It would have to be a very strong case to change my mind, but I am open to it. I at this time can see no reason to believe there is anything wrong with Carrera GT except the humans around them.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    The Corvair made a great race car. What suspension modifications were made to it for the track? I think the difference was the intended purpose and the way it was marketed at the time. Many of the Corvair models were sold as basic cheap second car transport for wives. These weren't SCCA race drivers. And these basic models were much more loosely sprung.

    But I do agree with you in one sense. Viewed from today, it was clearly a poor suspension design. But when compared to its competition -- the 356, VW, brake-less muscle cars, etc., was it so bad?

    Things have thankfully improved greatly since those days.

    Anyway, I don't think your comments detract from the basic point I was making in my original post.

    Stephen

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    I'm gonna sue Toyota/Honda since so many of there vehicles crash/so many lives are lost. They should put more safety features in there cars!

     
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