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But seeing the interior pics it only shows 5 
gears???
Feb 14, 2006 12:51:30 AM
- SeattleGT3
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- Reply to: Crash
Re: Tip/Auto rational
The goal of every publicly traded company German or otherwise is to maximize shareholder value. Sure Porshe is very good at selling us stuff. But I can tell you that the profit in options is in all those leather, aluminium and Carbon fiber bits that you can order for the interior. Not much engineering required and lots of profit. They would be better off convincing us that the more leather you have inside the faster the car will be. Which in turn would generate more profit and the Girls would love( Actually I think I love leather more than my wife but that is a different issue) If we did find out later that the Manual was faster they would loose customer loyalty and in the worst case would be the recipient of a class action suit and of course a decline in shareholder value. Great marketing is about fulfilling customer needs and demands and when you can exceeding them. I am sure that is what they will do here. So I will buy all the leather and carbon bits I can and will be satisfied with my well engineered but low profit tip. LOL 
Re: Tip/Auto rational
It defies logic and Porsche convention for a Tiptronic to be quicker than a manual.
One less gear and a torque converter that eats up 10-15hp does not usually sound like a recipe for a performance increase.
...Unless they have worked some kind of magic on the ECU that momentarily retards the engine at full throttle/max rpms simultaneous with the Tip shifting.
That might make shifting smoother/quicker than possible with the manual and explain the difference in accelleration.
Any other guesses?
One less gear and a torque converter that eats up 10-15hp does not usually sound like a recipe for a performance increase.
...Unless they have worked some kind of magic on the ECU that momentarily retards the engine at full throttle/max rpms simultaneous with the Tip shifting.
That might make shifting smoother/quicker than possible with the manual and explain the difference in accelleration.
Any other guesses?
Re: Tip/Auto rational
If you look at the Tourqe curves the car is powerful enough where 5 speed would probably be better for the acceleration tests shown. Think about it. 0-60 might only be two gears for the tip but 3 for the manual making it slower.
For those of you changing to tip over .2 seconds.... WOW, please tell me if you are going to notice .2 second ever, or .6 seconds for that matter to the higher speeds. Seriously.
Automatics are becoming smarter and smarter, they shift everytime same place, and quickly. Most High horsepower drag cars have 2-3 speed autos in them, why? they have enough power where all they need is the tall gearing and whats better than an auto that shifts perfect everytime?
Problem with autos is that they cant predict what you are going to need to do, they cant rev, and they are not very effecient down shifting or shifting many times in a short span(not incuding the flappy paddles)
For those of you changing to tip over .2 seconds.... WOW, please tell me if you are going to notice .2 second ever, or .6 seconds for that matter to the higher speeds. Seriously.
Automatics are becoming smarter and smarter, they shift everytime same place, and quickly. Most High horsepower drag cars have 2-3 speed autos in them, why? they have enough power where all they need is the tall gearing and whats better than an auto that shifts perfect everytime?
Problem with autos is that they cant predict what you are going to need to do, they cant rev, and they are not very effecient down shifting or shifting many times in a short span(not incuding the flappy paddles)
Feb 14, 2006 1:35:42 AM
- SeattleGT3
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- Reply to: JimFlat6
Re: Tip/Auto rational
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
It defies logic and Porsche convention for a Tiptronic to be quicker than a manual.
One less gear and a torque converter that eats up 10-15hp does not usually sound like a recipe for a performance increase.
...Unless they have worked some kind of magic on the ECU that momentarily retards the engine at full throttle/max rpms simultaneous with the Tip shifting.
That might make shifting smoother/quicker than possible with the manual and explain the difference in accelleration.
Any other guesses?
If it were PDK would we all be ok with it? Why? Why cant we except that computers can do it better? I found the following quote about the Mercedes transmission "system facillitates fast gear-change using the principle of repeated downshift - this means that when the driver switches down rapidly through the gears (kickdown), the new transmission does not always select the individual gears in strict order, missing out a particular gear if necessary. In this situation, only two gear changes are actually required - instead of the normal four - in order to accelerate quickly using kickdown. Another feature of the the new automatic transmission is a lockup clutch in the hydrodynamic torque converter designed to eliminate slip between the pump and turbine rotor. It does this by establishing a virtually fixed connection wherever possible between the engine shaft and transmission shaft, creating an extremely effective barrier to output loss. In contrast to conventional automatic transmissions, in which torque converter lockup is only possible in higher gears, the lockup clutch in the new automatic transmission from Mercedes-Benz is active from the first gear up." That will explain some of it. This articale was not specific about the Transmission that Porsche buys but may adopt some of the same technologies. Makes sense to me. "Piece Out"
Re: Tip/Auto rational
I really don't think this a con by Porsche to sell more Tiptronics. I think that their numbers for tip and manual are not fabrications. They will not risk their credibilty. If they so wanted to, they could increase the price they're selling all of them for, whether it be manual, tip, or PDK if available. They'll still sell well. Just reading the 997 Turbo Board, people will pay..
Re: Tip/Auto rational
Quote:
ztnedman1 said:
If you look at the Tourqe curves the car is powerful enough where 5 speed would probably be better for the acceleration tests shown. Think about it. 0-60 might only be two gears for the tip but 3 for the manual making it slower.
For those of you changing to tip over .2 seconds.... WOW, please tell me if you are going to notice .2 second ever, or .6 seconds for that matter to the higher speeds. Seriously.
Automatics are becoming smarter and smarter, they shift everytime same place, and quickly. Most High horsepower drag cars have 2-3 speed autos in them, why? they have enough power where all they need is the tall gearing and whats better than an auto that shifts perfect everytime?
Problem with autos is that they cant predict what you are going to need to do, they cant rev, and they are not very effecient down shifting or shifting many times in a short span(not incuding the flappy paddles)
But the tip is also faster 0-200kph... by 0.6 secs.
Re: Tip/Auto rational
Quote:
SciFrog said:Quote:
ztnedman1 said:
If you look at the Tourqe curves the car is powerful enough where 5 speed would probably be better for the acceleration tests shown. Think about it. 0-60 might only be two gears for the tip but 3 for the manual making it slower.
For those of you changing to tip over .2 seconds.... WOW, please tell me if you are going to notice .2 second ever, or .6 seconds for that matter to the higher speeds. Seriously.
Automatics are becoming smarter and smarter, they shift everytime same place, and quickly. Most High horsepower drag cars have 2-3 speed autos in them, why? they have enough power where all they need is the tall gearing and whats better than an auto that shifts perfect everytime?
Problem with autos is that they cant predict what you are going to need to do, they cant rev, and they are not very effecient down shifting or shifting many times in a short span(not incuding the flappy paddles)
But the tip is also faster 0-200kph... by 0.6 secs.
This is exactly what perplexes me... I mean if the gear ratios are changed for the tip to achieve the 0-60, that's one thing...but 0-125 faster by more than half a second?? If this is due to gear ratios, the tip will be monumentally slower than the manual in the top speed run and any other higher performance runs.
I think both the manual and the tip achieve 60mph in 1 shift, but there is still something very fishy going on...
Re: Tip/Auto rational
think it this way guys. Porsche website and representatives used to underestimate their acceleration figures. Or should I say conservative? for past few years, porsche used to claim that 997 or 997s has reached 0-62mph in 4.8 and 4.6secs. but in real road tests from many magazines and shows, they could have done it in 4.2secs or even below for manual transmission. on the other hand, tip is simply a press accel and go, which could have been a easier test for them to announce. after the 997TT get tested with manual in various magazines and shows. I think the acceleration figures would be very same.
Feb 14, 2006 3:53:57 AM
- SoCal Alan
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- Reply to: linkrain
Re: Tip/Auto rational
Quote:
linkrain said:
think it this way guys. Porsche website and representatives used to underestimate their acceleration figures. Or should I say conservative? for past few years, porsche used to claim that 997 or 997s has reached 0-62mph in 4.8 and 4.6secs. but in real road tests from many magazines and shows, they could have done it in 4.2secs or even below for manual transmission. on the other hand, tip is simply a press accel and go, which could have been a easier test for them to announce. after the 997TT get tested with manual in various magazines and shows. I think the acceleration figures would be very same.
What car magazine is going to choose a lesser, manual-tranny 997TT to do their performance and head-to-head tests with. They would have to pick the tip to get the better performance.
Feb 14, 2006 4:32:29 AM
- MKW
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- Reply to: SoCal Alan
Re: Tip/Auto rational
Perhaps this is just Porsche's way of steering the "die hard" manual tranny guys into buying the higher profit margin Tip and prepping the three pedal intender to throw in the towel and shell out $$$ for next year's PDK. They figured out after studying AMG's business case that the high $$$ buyer likes staightline acceleration bragging, attained by just planting the foot to the floor, like granny. Look at all the supposed " car nuts " here who suddenly want the Tip because they can't stand the thought of losing in internet " bench racing " . I can see the snickering from SL 65 , E55 , etc.owners who can only get theirs in a slushbox and who are razzed by others for that reason. 1950s style sports car track racing skills is a dying interest in too busy lives . Today, " racing " is drifting, drag racing and ovals as far as the American consumer goes , even the ones who don't live in a trailor park. 
Feb 14, 2006 5:08:15 AM
- SoCal Alan
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Feb 14, 2006 5:37:16 AM
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Super Darius
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Feb 14, 2006 5:50:27 AM
- Grant
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Super Darius
Re: Tip/Auto rational
I have a theory about why the Tip may be faster (I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this is old news). Since the Tip has only 5 gears compared to the manual 6 speed, it will allow the car to stay in the overboost range (2,100 rpm to 4,000 rpm) longer. With the 6speed, the ratios are closer and you will be over 4,000 rpm more ofter (or need to shift more often to stay in the proper rpm which causes momentary loss of boost). This could be a rare case where fewer gears is better, due to the unusual option of overboost.
I'd still take the manual for myself though...
I'd still take the manual for myself though...
Feb 14, 2006 6:04:04 AM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: Tip/Auto rational
Quote:
Grant said:
I have a theory about why the Tip may be faster (I didn't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this is old news). Since the Tip has only 5 gears compared to the manual 6 speed, it will allow the car to stay in the overboost range (2,100 rpm to 4,000 rpm) longer. This could be a rare case where fewer gears is better, due to the unusual option of overboost.
But the performance is already better w/o overboost. Unless the 0-100 and 0-200 times of 3.7/3.9 and 12.2/12.8 ARE with the overboost. Funny that there is no mention of the increase in performance in acceleration from stop due to overboost in the press release. The only mention of the improvement is 80-120 km/h for the manual from 3.8 down to 3.5 in 5th gear.
Feb 14, 2006 8:29:58 AM
- Rafael from Spain
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Re: Tip/Auto rational
All this does not make any sense.
This is the only explanation I found. Manual might reach 125mph in 4th gear while Auto in 3rd. So needing one less gearchange. Less say this adds to 0,3 sec.
The rest of the difference is all up to Porsche conservative manual acceleration times.
To fully understand the difference we should have accelearation times in 20kph jumps.
But even by putting this into the equation it does not make any sense. To achive maximum acceleration you need to send more power to the ground (not torque*) so with the manual when changing gear you are having always a little power advantage due to shorter gears. Also manual has less weight.Lets say both have the same drivetrain loss. But everybody knows that weight is the biggest enemy to stand-still acceleration. Above 100mph it does not matter so much
PS *more torque means better accelearation from a constant speed, but once you are in the possitive G zone, you want power. This is why 80-120 is much better with overboost
PS2: I think is a lot about marketing, and Porsche have an easy way out if manual is faster. They can claim magazines power-shift or abuse the clutch to start moving the car. They can say their times are with "real life" type of changes.
This is the only explanation I found. Manual might reach 125mph in 4th gear while Auto in 3rd. So needing one less gearchange. Less say this adds to 0,3 sec.
The rest of the difference is all up to Porsche conservative manual acceleration times.
To fully understand the difference we should have accelearation times in 20kph jumps.
But even by putting this into the equation it does not make any sense. To achive maximum acceleration you need to send more power to the ground (not torque*) so with the manual when changing gear you are having always a little power advantage due to shorter gears. Also manual has less weight.Lets say both have the same drivetrain loss. But everybody knows that weight is the biggest enemy to stand-still acceleration. Above 100mph it does not matter so much
PS *more torque means better accelearation from a constant speed, but once you are in the possitive G zone, you want power. This is why 80-120 is much better with overboost
PS2: I think is a lot about marketing, and Porsche have an easy way out if manual is faster. They can claim magazines power-shift or abuse the clutch to start moving the car. They can say their times are with "real life" type of changes.
Feb 14, 2006 8:42:15 AM
- Scree
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Re: Tip/Auto rational
Quote:
Rafael from Spain said:
PS2: I think is a lot about marketing, and Porsche have an easy way out if manual is faster. They can claim magazines power-shift or abuse the clutch to start moving the car. They can say their times are with "real life" type of changes.
Would be VERY interesting if they try to pull that. There will be a lot of angry customers.
~Scree
Re: Tip/Auto rational
Guys,
What we will need is an "independent" review of both Tip and manual cars with same driver, same road, same weather, using overboost on and off, of 0-target speed times, quarter mile/trap speeds. Nevertheless, those Tip accel. times are pretty impressive, faster than the not-too-shabby manual times. I would love for some more detail about the "new" Tip design. I find it hard to believe the superior Tip times are due only to electronic communication with the ECU/new PTM. That must be one impressively efficient torque converter.
What we will need is an "independent" review of both Tip and manual cars with same driver, same road, same weather, using overboost on and off, of 0-target speed times, quarter mile/trap speeds. Nevertheless, those Tip accel. times are pretty impressive, faster than the not-too-shabby manual times. I would love for some more detail about the "new" Tip design. I find it hard to believe the superior Tip times are due only to electronic communication with the ECU/new PTM. That must be one impressively efficient torque converter.
Re: Tip/Auto rational
A number of years ago, Danny Sullivan did a track test of a number of Porsche Turbos at Infineon Raceway that was published in Excellence Magazine. I believe he tested a 930 3.3, a 964 Turbo S, a 993TT and a 996TT-Tip and to his surprise he really liked the 996TT on the track!!!
Feb 14, 2006 5:24:00 PM
- Avantgarde
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Feb 14, 2006 11:34:53 PM
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RC
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Re: Tip/Auto rational
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
But the performance is already better w/o overboost. Unless the 0-100 and 0-200 times of 3.7/3.9 and 12.2/12.8 ARE with the overboost. Funny that there is no mention of the increase in performance in acceleration from stop due to overboost in the press release. The only mention of the improvement is 80-120 km/h for the manual from 3.8 down to 3.5 in 5th gear.
This is what I would like to know too: are the performance claims achieved with or without overboost? Because looking at the torque curves and somehow adding the additional 10 seconds of overboost in the 2100-4000 rpm range, I wonder how the performance from 0-100 kph (62 mph) and 0-200 kph (125 mph) would change. Theoretically, the 997 Turbo should hit 0-100 kph around 0.1 seconds faster and 0-200 kph around 0.5 seconds faster. Which would be a substantial performance increase in my opinion. But on the other hand, what about those 10 seconds? I mean how long does the engine stay between the claimed overboost rev range of 2100-4000 rpm? I doubt it is going to be 10 seconds.
Sorry, I'm confused and I wish Porsche would clarify some of those claims. And there is another thing I don't get: they launch the press release about an "Opus", a "Masterwork", a "Meisterwerk" and all we get are some crappy "for-dummies" specs and description of the technical part of the car. Even my wife, who couldn't care less about the technical part, would love to know more details.
Oh well, the marketing department does a great job...like always.
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