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    Feb 12, 2006 8:46:24 PM

    Lazy Cat
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    Reply to: brunner

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    brunner said:

    I think you missed the post where i said that the CGT has exactly the same stability controls as the SLR and Enzo.




    I always thought the cgt had only a traction control, and NO stability control, in order to let the driver "play" as he likes with the car...

    Feb 12, 2006 8:54:27 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: brunner

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Porsche had PSM before Ferrari had their CST.


    Exactly! So, why didn't they install it on the CGT?
    The Enzo has stability control and so does the SLR.
    What will be Porsche's excuse? Cost?


    I think you missed the post where i said that the CGT has exactly the same stability controls as the SLR and Enzo.

    As for the PSM, i don't think it's feasible to install it in the CGT...



    Do yourself a favor and find out what PSM means.

    There is no stability control on the CGT! ASR is not the same as PSM.

    Feb 12, 2006 9:01:37 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: vtrader

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    vtrader said:


    By the way, why did Jay Leno spin his CGT on the straightaway during his speed record attempt?



    Kinda contradicts Porsche's claim of high speed stability, don't it? Looks like Leno could be subpoenaed!

    Feb 12, 2006 9:12:57 PM

    brunner
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    brunner said:

    I think you missed the post where i said that the CGT has exactly the same stability controls as the SLR and Enzo.

    As for the PSM, i don't think it's feasible to install it in the CGT...



    Do yourself a favor and find out what PSM means.

    There is no stability control on the CGT! ASR is not the same as PSM.


    Seems like this lawsuit issue is spawning aggression everywhere

    I said 'the same stability controls', i.e. none. If i remember right, the Enzo and SLR are fitted only with ASR. If i'm wrong about that, then i stand corrected.


    Later edit: from what i could find on the net, the SLR does have ESP (which kinda' fits with it's GTish character), but the Enzo doesn't.

    Feb 12, 2006 9:18:02 PM

    brunner
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    By the way, why did Jay Leno spin his CGT on the straightaway during his speed record attempt?


    Kinda contradicts Porsche's claim of high speed stability, don't it? Looks like Leno could be subpoenaed!


    "Two hours prior to the record runs, Leno was testing at speed when he lost control in the speedway's tri-oval. Leno had just passed the timing light at more than 182 mph when he drifted high in the tri-oval and got caught up in debris near the wall. "
    http://www.al.com/sports/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/sports/1125653135142050.xml&coll=2

    Heh, is Porsche guilty again for following the laws of physics?:)

    Feb 12, 2006 9:22:12 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: brunner

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    By the way, why did Jay Leno spin his CGT on the straightaway during his speed record attempt?


    Kinda contradicts Porsche's claim of high speed stability, don't it? Looks like Leno could be subpoenaed!


    "Two hours prior to the record runs, Leno was testing at speed when he lost control in the speedway's tri-oval. Leno had just passed the timing light at more than 182 mph when he drifted high in the tri-oval and got caught up in debris near the wall. "
    http://www.al.com/sports/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/sports/1125653135142050.xml&coll=2

    Heh, is Porsche guilty again for following the laws of physics?:)



    Or maybe for letting Jay Leno drive a CGT?

    Feb 12, 2006 9:25:54 PM

    sdy284
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    By the way, why did Jay Leno spin his CGT on the straightaway during his speed record attempt?


    Kinda contradicts Porsche's claim of high speed stability, don't it? Looks like Leno could be subpoenaed!


    "Two hours prior to the record runs, Leno was testing at speed when he lost control in the speedway's tri-oval. Leno had just passed the timing light at more than 182 mph when he drifted high in the tri-oval and got caught up in debris near the wall. "
    http://www.al.com/sports/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/sports/1125653135142050.xml&coll=2

    Heh, is Porsche guilty again for following the laws of physics?:)



    Or maybe for letting Jay Leno drive a CGT?



    Quote:
    Leno, who has a collection of 85 antique automobiles and race cars, loves to go fast. He has driven a jet car 278 mph on the dry lake bed at El Mirage, Calif., and once drove a pre-production race car more than 200 mph in Spain. He has also driven the pace car at the Indy 500 and Daytona 500.



    its not like he doesn't have experiance with exotic cars & high speeds

    Feb 12, 2006 9:41:42 PM

    Trundle_GT3
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Leno Q&A:

    How fast did you go?

    My lap was 183 miles per hour. David Donohue's was 193.

    Is it scary?

    It's a lot of fun, actually. I don't consider myself a race car driver, but I'm not a panicky person so when I went into a spin at 188 miles per hour I didn't lose it .... We were close to 190 miles per hour, and I took my foot off the gas just a hair and some debris was on the track. We spun around five times. That was exciting.
    From the LA Times

    The simple known fact is it is not that you lifted, it is HOW you lifted. An abrupt or snap lift can create trailing throtle oversteer.
    You can lift if it is done gradually by breathing off the throtle.
    This is one of the finer points of car control / vehicle dynamics that seperate professional drivers from the amateur drivers

    Leno is not an experienced driver, nor a racer. He is an avid collector/enthusiast whose celebrity status happens to open doors. Not many hours of near the limit driving.
    Driving and car control is all about seat time

    Inexperience doing anything can be dangerous.
    Inexperience behind the wheel of a car is worse.

    Feb 12, 2006 9:46:05 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Porsche had PSM before Ferrari had their CST.


    Exactly! So, why didn't they install it on the CGT?
    The Enzo has stability control and so does the SLR.
    What will be Porsche's excuse? Cost?


    I think you missed the post where i said that the CGT has exactly the same stability controls as the SLR and Enzo.

    As for the PSM, i don't think it's feasible to install it in the CGT...



    Do yourself a favor and find out what PSM means.

    There is no stability control on the CGT! ASR is not the same as PSM.



    Before you lecture anybody make sure you know what you are talking about:

    The ENZO and SLR have a Traction Control system just like the CGT's. PSM is an electronic stability system and so is the Ferrari's CST, Mercedes' ESP, BMW's DSC, etc.

    The reason they did not fit PSM on the CGT is the same reason Ferrari did not install theirs on the Enzo, Pagani on the Zonda, Mercedes on the SLR, and so on. Stability control management systems are too intrusive for sporty driving, thats why the F360CS or the GT3 do not have them either, hence not applicable on a supercar. Why does the GT3 or F360CS not have run-flat tires? same reason.
    Of course all this has been explained earlier in the thread already.

    Feb 12, 2006 9:55:25 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Porsche had PSM before Ferrari had their CST.


    Exactly! So, why didn't they install it on the CGT?
    The Enzo has stability control and so does the SLR.
    What will be Porsche's excuse? Cost?


    I think you missed the post where i said that the CGT has exactly the same stability controls as the SLR and Enzo.

    As for the PSM, i don't think it's feasible to install it in the CGT...



    Do yourself a favor and find out what PSM means.

    There is no stability control on the CGT! ASR is not the same as PSM.



    Before you lecture anybody make sure you know what you are talking about:

    The ENZO and SLR have a Traction Control system just like the CGT's. PSM is an electronic stability system and so is the Ferrari's CST, Mercedes' ESP, BMW's DSC, etc.

    The reason they did not fit PSM on the CGT is the same reason Ferrari did not install theirs on the Enzo, Pagani on the Zonda, Mercedes on the SLR, and so on. Stability control management systems are too intrusive for sporty driving, thats why the F360CS or the GT3 do not have them either, hence not applicable on a supercar. Why does the GT3 or F360CS not have run-flat tires? same reason.
    Of course all this has been explained earlier in the thread already.



    Carlos, svtrader has the same anti-Porsche bias as Nick, so trying to explain thos to him might be almost as futile as trying to explain it to Nick, although I may be wrong and he's more open-minded.

    Again, the Enzo has NO stability control, because this interferes with high performance.
    Want proof: Look at the Fifth gear episode, where Jason Plato drives a yellow F430. The difference is pretty dramatic.

    Feb 12, 2006 10:06:23 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Porsche had PSM before Ferrari had their CST.


    Exactly! So, why didn't they install it on the CGT?
    The Enzo has stability control and so does the SLR.
    What will be Porsche's excuse? Cost?


    I think you missed the post where i said that the CGT has exactly the same stability controls as the SLR and Enzo.

    As for the PSM, i don't think it's feasible to install it in the CGT...



    Do yourself a favor and find out what PSM means.

    There is no stability control on the CGT! ASR is not the same as PSM.



    Before you lecture anybody make sure you know what you are talking about:

    The ENZO and SLR have a Traction Control system just like the CGT's. PSM is an electronic stability system and so is the Ferrari's CST, Mercedes' ESP, BMW's DSC, etc.

    The reason they did not fit PSM on the CGT is the same reason Ferrari did not install theirs on the Enzo, Pagani on the Zonda, Mercedes on the SLR, and so on. Stability control management systems are too intrusive for sporty driving, thats why the F360CS or the GT3 do not have them either, hence not applicable on a supercar. Why does the GT3 or F360CS not have run-flat tires? same reason.
    Of course all this has been explained earlier in the thread already.



    What! No CST on the ENZO? I smell another lawsuit.

    But, FYI, the SLR does indeed have ESP.
    Looks like you need to check the facts, too.

    Feb 12, 2006 10:07:13 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    True Crash. The most tiresome part is having to correct over and over all the errous facts they bring into the posts, when you would think that before entering such discussions one should have done enough research to at least the the basic facts down before posting

    Feb 12, 2006 10:10:44 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Crash said:


    Carlos, svtrader has the same anti-Porsche bias as Nick, so trying to explain thos to him might be almost as futile as trying to explain it to Nick, although I may be wrong and he's more open-minded.





    Svtrader likes Porsche and respects(generally) what they do, but, it's not a religion.

    Feb 12, 2006 10:16:42 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:Svtrader likes Porsche and respects(generally) what they do, but, it's not a religion.



    Really? after over 300 posts I have yet to read a post from you in which you have a positive thing to say about a Porsche.

    Now I'm really curious , tell me, what do you like about Porsche?

    Feb 12, 2006 10:27:40 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: sdy284

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    sdy284 said:
    its not like he doesn't have experiance with exotic cars & high speeds



    I KNOW; I KNOW! But facts like that don't count in Nick's world.

    The fact that a driver knowingly, wittingly, voluntarily does something potentially dangerous means for Nick that the person / company perceived to have the deepest pockets in the "enabling chain", however remotely involved or uninvolved, has to be liable for any undesireable outcome.

    For the simple reason that they are the ones who could be blackmailed into paying up enough to cover a worthwhile lawyer's fee.

    For the avoidance of doubt, the "worthwhile" in the above sentence obviously referred to the "fee", not lawyer Nick.

    Feb 12, 2006 10:28:10 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    The Stig was Perry McCarthy a former F1 driver and considered by many has one of the best drivers on the circuit. Though he never won a race, in F1 many attributed it (including himself) to the lack of funds with the teams he was associated with.

    U Boat you cannot have both ways. If driving at high speeds is an inherently hazardous activity (I am not sure that is the case) and the product manufacturer provides the instrument to accomplish THE activity, don't they have duty to provide safeguards to protect against injury? I am not saying guaranteeing no injury but provide what is available. Also, if a person is engage in a hazardous activity but is injury is as a result of a product defect, is it his responsibility or the manufactuer.?

    I cannot apeak regarding the design of the car but if the engine was designed for Le Mans it would seem to me they had in mind the design of the car. Otherwise, how could you put a Le Mans engine in a car designed for public roads. Do not considerations like down draft, tires, engine location, tail wings etc play a role?

    Finally to end this issue, I would like an answer from the personal responsibility faction on this board. If you are driving your Porsche and it loses control as a result of either a defective suspension, defective throttle, defective brake or defective chassis design, would you want your significant other to pursue an action against Porsche? Or would you find it acceptable that since you were driving fast, you assumed ALL risks and if something goes wrong tough?

    Feb 12, 2006 10:30:19 PM

    Atzporsche
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Im only 19 years old and after just having read through all this, all i can say is that i can't believe how many idiots are out there. they blaim the car makers over the stupidity of the buyers.. i have many young friends in the US, who will probably die very soon (since they're unexperienced and incredibly stupid and immature) yet in the US they can drive fast cars. porsche should stop selling sports cars to the US altogether and focus on the common sense market..
    nberry, i can see why you drive a Ferrari (stereotypes do exsist and are right in your case)

    Feb 12, 2006 10:30:58 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Carlos from Spain said:
    PSM is an electronic stability system and so is the Ferrari's CST, Mercedes' ESP, BMW's DSC, etc.

    svtrader1 said:
    But, FYI, the SLR does indeed have ESP.
    Looks like you need to check the facts, too.

    Carlos has has'nt he ...

    throt..

    Feb 12, 2006 10:49:31 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:Svtrader likes Porsche and respects(generally) what they do, but, it's not a religion.



    Really? after over 300 posts I have yet to read a post from you in which you have a positive thing to say about a Porsche.

    Now I'm really curious , tell me, what do you like about Porsche?



    Don't be bitter. Only 300+ post in nearly four(4) years, you can't expect them all be raving endorsements of all Porsche products.

    However, I did say the GT3 seems to be a bargain recently.

    Feb 12, 2006 10:57:51 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:Svtrader likes Porsche and respects(generally) what they do, but, it's not a religion.



    Really? after over 300 posts I have yet to read a post from you in which you have a positive thing to say about a Porsche.

    Now I'm really curious , tell me, what do you like about Porsche?



    Don't be bitter. Only 300+ post in nearly four(4) years, you can't expect them all be raving endorsements of all Porsche products.

    However, I did say the GT3 seems to be a bargain recently.



    svtrader1 profile:

    Registered on Fri Oct 17 2003 05:29 PM

    Yep, Christmas of 2007 is getting near

    Edit: funny thing though, I registered on Oct 17, 2002

    Feb 12, 2006 11:05:26 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:Svtrader likes Porsche and respects(generally) what they do, but, it's not a religion.



    Really? after over 300 posts I have yet to read a post from you in which you have a positive thing to say about a Porsche.

    Now I'm really curious , tell me, what do you like about Porsche?



    Don't be bitter. Only 300+ post in nearly four(4) years, you can't expect them all be raving endorsements of all Porsche products.

    However, I did say the GT3 seems to be a bargain recently.



    svtrader1 profile:

    Registered on Fri Oct 17 2003 05:29 PM

    Yep, Christmas of 2007 is getting near

    Edit: funny thing though, I registered on Oct 17, 2002



    I registered in 2002, about the time when Rennteam was getting started. I reregistered when I switch ISP. RC can vouch for me.
    Capice?

    Feb 12, 2006 11:06:33 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:Svtrader likes Porsche and respects(generally) what they do, but, it's not a religion.



    Really? after over 300 posts I have yet to read a post from you in which you have a positive thing to say about a Porsche.

    Now I'm really curious , tell me, what do you like about Porsche?



    Don't be bitter. Only 300+ post in nearly four(4) years, you can't expect them all be raving endorsements of all Porsche products.

    However, I did say the GT3 seems to be a bargain recently.



    svtrader1 profile:

    Registered on Fri Oct 17 2003 05:29 PM

    Yep, Christmas of 2007 is getting near

    Edit: funny thing though, I registered on Oct 17, 2002



    I registered in 2002, about the time when Rennteam was getting started. I reregistered when I switch ISP. RC can vouch for me.
    Capice?



    Bene, bene! Io capito!

    Feb 12, 2006 11:46:14 PM

    vtrader
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Maybe its time to close this thread. Its starting to get personal.

    Other than Nick, we all love our Porsche cars. Just because you think that its OK for the widow to sue for her loss and name the speedway, the course worker, the Ferrari club, and Porsche as defendants, does not mean you are anti-Porsche.

    Feb 12, 2006 11:55:25 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: vtrader

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Maybe its time to close this thread. Its starting to get personal.

    Other than Nick, we all love our Porsche cars. Just because you think that its OK for the widow to sue for her loss and name the speedway, the course worker, the Ferrari club, and Porsche as defendants, does not mean you are anti-Porsche.



    Speaking from experience, it become personal when they run out of arguments. You get use to it.

    Feb 13, 2006 12:01:18 AM

    U Boat Commander
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    U Boat you cannot have both ways. If driving at high speeds is an inherently hazardous activity (I am not sure that is the case) and the product manufacturer provides the instrument to accomplish THE activity, don't they have duty to provide safeguards to protect against injury? I am not saying guaranteeing no injury but provide what is available. Also, if a person is engage in a hazardous activity but is injury is as a result of a product defect, is it his responsibility or the manufactuer.?



    Nick: Do airplane manufacturers have a duty to provide parachutes with the airplanes they sell in case it's necessary to bail out? No. And there is no duty to provide every available saftey enhancement on every automobile either. Like I said before, I don't hear you saying that the CGT should have been equiped with a roll cage. Why should it have been equiped with PSM?

    Your second point is also BS. Now you're just assuming that the CGT has a product defect because it does not have PSM. That's just wrong. The CGT does not have PSM because its meant to be driven in a manner that does not work with PSM. That is not a product defect.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Finally to end this issue, I would like an answer from the personal responsibility faction on this board. If you are driving your Porsche and it loses control as a result of either a defective suspension, defective throttle, defective brake or defective chassis design, would you want your significant other to pursue an action against Porsche? Or would you find it acceptable that since you were driving fast, you assumed ALL risks and if something goes wrong tough?



    Nick, again you are assuming that there is a defect with the CGT. That has not been proven and I don't think the lack of PSM alone is enough to prevail on a claim that the car has a design defect. Absolutely, if someone is harmed as a result of a product defect he or his family should have redress against the manufacturer. I don't think anyone is denying that here.

    Feb 13, 2006 12:51:34 AM

    Shark01
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    Reply to: U Boat Commander

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    All the plaintiffs have to do here is make a case that the CGT is more unstable within some speed range than similar cars. And judging by the many wrecks displayed in various forums, I suspect that it could happen.

    Feb 13, 2006 1:23:09 AM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: U Boat Commander

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Uboat like many others you are confusing active safety devices with passive devices. One activates to prevent the accident, the other mitigate injury.

    I would expect airlines to have back up on critical systems. Fly with one engine down and so on.

    I am not alleging there is a defect regarding the CGT. I do not know if there is a defect. This thread began when people took the position that if you are at a speedway and are injured it is the drivers responsibility because he/she assumed ALL risks. I think that is poppy-cock.

    In the case of the CGT, evidence does tend to show a possible issue concerning the stability of the car and until that is thoroughly investigated we should not prejudge or denegrate who wish to investigate the issue.

    WHAT IS IRONIC IS I BELIEVE PORSCHE WOULD WANT TO KNOW IF THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THIS CAR.

    Good safety conscious companies would want to know.Time will tell.

    Feb 13, 2006 1:41:24 AM

    A430v
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    WHAT IS IRONIC IS I BELIEVE PORSCHE WOULD WANT TO KNOW IF THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THIS CAR.

    Good safety conscious companies would want to know.Time will tell.



    Porsche would want to know for sure, but via a lawsuit asking for money??? hmmmm...

    Feb 13, 2006 1:46:04 AM

    SciFrog Offline
    Rennteam VIP
    SciFrog
    Loc: USA , United States
    Posts: 9870, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 15, 2005
    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    I agree we should know if there is a problem with the car, my gut feeling tells me there isn't one.
    But what is a problem? A mechanical failure? A design defect?
    So what should they do compare it to another supercar and see if it doesn't handle as well? Or to a 911? There is no point of reference.
    My Cayenne doesn't handle as fast as my 911, is it defective?

    Feb 13, 2006 2:27:43 AM

    svtrader1
    Veteran
    svtrader1
    Loc:
    Posts: 821, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 17, 2003
    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Uboat like many others you are confusing active safety devices with passive devices. One activates to prevent the accident, the other mitigate injury.





    That's an excellent point! While it is important to have all the safety devices for when you crash, it is irrefutably more important to prevent the crash in the first place.

    Nick, in your closing remarks quote Benjamin Franklin: "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

    And don't settle for less than 7 figures.
     
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