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Feb 11, 2006 1:50:00 PM
- rosso nuvola
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
They decided to call it Fiorano the afternoon before the event and many members of Ferrari Spa didn't know it before.
This is the first car with different sospension. It has liquid mercury that became hard with electric impulse and so the sospension became hard from soft in only 100 milliseconds.
It change gears in 100 milliseconds, Enzo and 430 make it in 150 and Fxx in 80.
It is 10 cm longer than the 575 but it weight 50 kg less and the linje looks smaller.
It use less fuel than the 575 also if it has 100 hp more.
On the picture there are rosso corsa, argento nurburgring anda the new ROSSO MONZA that is not as the rubino, it's fantastic.
My dealer has sold all 2006 and 2007 cars.
manuma at fchat
This is the first car with different sospension. It has liquid mercury that became hard with electric impulse and so the sospension became hard from soft in only 100 milliseconds.
It change gears in 100 milliseconds, Enzo and 430 make it in 150 and Fxx in 80.
It is 10 cm longer than the 575 but it weight 50 kg less and the linje looks smaller.
It use less fuel than the 575 also if it has 100 hp more.
On the picture there are rosso corsa, argento nurburgring anda the new ROSSO MONZA that is not as the rubino, it's fantastic.
My dealer has sold all 2006 and 2007 cars.
manuma at fchat
Feb 11, 2006 7:25:46 PM
- Manuma
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
rosso nuvola said:
They decided to call it Fiorano the afternoon before the event and many members of Ferrari Spa didn't know it before.
This is the first car with different sospension. It has liquid mercury that became hard with electric impulse and so the sospension became hard from soft in only 100 milliseconds.
It change gears in 100 milliseconds, Enzo and 430 make it in 150 and Fxx in 80.
It is 10 cm longer than the 575 but it weight 50 kg less and the linje looks smaller.
It use less fuel than the 575 also if it has 100 hp more.
On the picture there are rosso corsa, argento nurburgring anda the new ROSSO MONZA that is not as the rubino, it's fantastic.
My dealer has sold all 2006 and 2007 cars.
manuma at fchat
Feb 11, 2006 9:16:12 PM
- Rossi
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
rosso nuvola said:
They decided to call it Fiorano the afternoon before the event and many members of Ferrari Spa didn't know it before.
This is the first car with different sospension. It has liquid mercury that became hard with electric impulse and so the sospension became hard from soft in only 100 milliseconds.
It change gears in 100 milliseconds, Enzo and 430 make it in 150 and Fxx in 80.
It is 10 cm longer than the 575 but it weight 50 kg less and the linje looks smaller.
It use less fuel than the 575 also if it has 100 hp more.
On the picture there are rosso corsa, argento nurburgring anda the new ROSSO MONZA that is not as the rubino, it's fantastic.
My dealer has sold all 2006 and 2007 cars.
manuma at fchat
Let me ask a technical question:
F430 gear changes are as quick as in the Enzo, F599's shifting is nearly as quick as Ferrari's current masterpiece, the FXX.
So where's the need for a system like the DSG/PDK?
I know Ferrari is working at it and we should see such a tranny in one of their future models, but with the F1 getting quicker and quicker, does DSG/PDK still bring an advantage? Or does Ferrari want to offer an alternative for an auto tranny that is still missing in a car like the 612 for example?
Feb 11, 2006 9:17:07 PM
- connoisseur
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Feb 11, 2006 11:16:02 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
Rossi said:
Let me ask a technical question:
F430 gear changes are as quick as in the Enzo, F599's shifting is nearly as quick as Ferrari's current masterpiece, the FXX.
So where's the need for a system like the DSG/PDK?
Yes the single-clutch F1 is still slow, while the F430 upshifts in 150ms, and the F599 in 100ms, the DSG upshifts in 8ms!
Feb 12, 2006 12:43:49 AM
- SSNISTR
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
Rossi said:
Let me ask a technical question:
F430 gear changes are as quick as in the Enzo, F599's shifting is nearly as quick as Ferrari's current masterpiece, the FXX.
So where's the need for a system like the DSG/PDK?
Yes the single-clutch F1 is still slow, while the F430 upshifts in 150ms, and the F599 in 100ms, the DSG upshifts in 8ms!
8???? Are you sure? That's quicker then all F1 cars.
God can 8ms even be measured lol.
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Carlos,
Would you please post a reference to your claim of 8ms DSG upshifting? Every figure I have ever found for Audi's DSG equipped cars was nowhere near that number.
And as BluCamSS said, that is significantly faster than than an F1 car.
8ms is very hard for me to believe.
Greg A
Would you please post a reference to your claim of 8ms DSG upshifting? Every figure I have ever found for Audi's DSG equipped cars was nowhere near that number.
And as BluCamSS said, that is significantly faster than than an F1 car.
8ms is very hard for me to believe.
Greg A
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
teflon said:
Carlos,
Would you please post a reference to your claim of 8ms DSG upshifting? Every figure I have ever found for Audi's DSG equipped cars was nowhere near that number.
And as BluCamSS said, that is significantly faster than than an F1 car.
8ms is very hard for me to believe.
Greg A
hard to believe, just to much going on for it to happen in 8 ms....
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
ingegnere said:Quote:
rosso nuvola said:
Are there other cars with this mercury suspension system??
I believe this will probably have a magneto-rheological fluid in the dampers. The damper fluid's viscosity is altered, very quickly, by subjecting it to a variable magnetic field and in turn this will alter the effective stiffness of the shocks.
I think all recent Ferraris have some sort of variable damper control, this new one just reacts much faster.
Corvette and Cadillac XLR have this already.
Very true. And the upcoming Audi R8 will have the magnetic damping system as well. For one third of the 599's money. It's only natural that a much costlier Ferrari have this as well, definitely not some 'amazing new feature'..
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
hard to believe, just to much going on for it to happen in 8 ms....
What's hard to believe? The DSG is a double-clutch gearbox, it has TWO clutches. The second gear is already engaged before even the gearchange. 8 ms is the only time it needs to 'shift' gears. Best of all, it's unbelievably smooth, unlike regular sequential manuals (F1, E-Gear, SMG).
BMW is ready to launch their own double-clutch gearbox (tentatively named ZSG), Porsche is working on one (PDK) and even Ferrari has started working on one, seeing how amazing the 7-speed DSG works in the 1000-hp Veyron.
It is the future, the way to go.
Feb 12, 2006 11:31:26 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
8???? Are you sure? That's quicker then all F1 cars.
God can 8ms even be measured lol.
Quote:
teflon said:
Carlos,
Would you please post a reference to your claim of 8ms DSG upshifting? Every figure I have ever found for Audi's DSG equipped cars was nowhere near that number.
And as BluCamSS said, that is significantly faster than than an F1 car.
8ms is very hard for me to believe.
Greg A
Its not hard to believe if you now how the system works. Its got two seperate banks with their own clutches, one with 1-3-5 gears and the other with 2-4-6 gears. When you upshift to the next gear, the other bank releases the clutch at the SAME time as it nbgages the clutch of the out going gear, therefore the shift is inmediate and there is virtually no interruption of power. The single-clucth secuentials cannot get close to this.
Here, I looked up a refference for you:
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_317.shtml
Quote:
DSG is completely different from BMW's SMG and Ferrari's F1 system in that it has two clutches instead of one. This means that DSG can fire off an upshift in .008 seconds whereas BMW's SMG takes .8 seconds to make the same shift.
Feb 12, 2006 12:41:26 PM
- arakis
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
yeah but u forget that thats only if the gear is set up corectly, If u want to downshift if will take alot more time to set up the new gear. And u forgot that its almost twice as heavy as the sequential, and its less effective(more power is lost to the drivetrain), when u ad pro and cons, I am not so sure its all that better
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Ferrari managing director Amedeo Felisa was quoted (Car ?) recently as saying that they are working on such a system and that it would be useful on a car like the 612. I guess this could be extended to the Quattroporte, which has been critised for having harsh shifting when executing lazy shifts around town.
Also, most F1 teams are developing "seamless shift" gearboxes and some of them (maybe all) are doing it with a twin clutch arrangement - including Ferrai for 2006, if rumours are believed.
Also, most F1 teams are developing "seamless shift" gearboxes and some of them (maybe all) are doing it with a twin clutch arrangement - including Ferrai for 2006, if rumours are believed.
Feb 12, 2006 1:24:15 PM
- rosso nuvola
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Feb 12, 2006 1:32:58 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
arakis said:
yeah but u forget that thats only if the gear is set up corectly, If u want to downshift if will take alot more time to set up the new gear. And u forgot that its almost twice as heavy as the sequential, and its less effective(more power is lost to the drivetrain), when u ad pro and cons, I am not so sure its all that better
The downshift speed is non important in practical terms becuase when you downshift the shorter gear has to be match reved to the engine speed, and that takes more time than the downshift itself. So on paper it may seem a con but in real life driving its not, and its only slower when you want to downshift in betwwen gears in the same bank, like from 4 to 2 or 6 to second for example, but when downshifting to the next inferior gear its not significantly slower becuase its in in the other bank.
As to it being twice as heavy or that more power is lost in the drivetrain, I would like to know were you got that info, since those are a characteristics of the hydrolic torque converter auto tranny not the secuential, wether single or double clutch. Thats why they have both been use succesfully in racing applications, unlike the torque converter.
Feb 12, 2006 2:02:47 PM
- rosso nuvola
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
"...Ferrari managing director Amedeo Felisa was quoted (Car ?) recently as saying that they are working on such a system and that it would be useful on a car like the 612. I guess this could be extended to the Quattroporte, which has been critised for having harsh shifting when executing lazy shifts around town..."
@ingeniere,
The CRF has laid down the "teory" for the twin clutch some years ago... www.crf.it search for "ecoshift"
@ingeniere,
The CRF has laid down the "teory" for the twin clutch some years ago... www.crf.it search for "ecoshift"
Feb 12, 2006 10:25:21 PM
- arakis
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Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Well simpy it has 2 cluctches, insted of one, and 2 rows of gears insted of one, well actually 3 insted of 2. thus more weight to be turned and more weight to lose power to.
As for Upshift downshift and how it works, I am preaty sure it is computer controled so it can make the best choice of what u need before u need. If u start accelerating, and u are close to rev limit, it will sellect the next ger as upshift, but if u decelerate(bracke) it will select downshift. so it could be useful. I made a mistake earlier. But it is heavier (not as much as automatick), and less eficient(again not as much as auto). In the end it is a meter of choise.
In my opinion the best trany ever built was Wiliams F1 in 94 I think. CVT (continuosly variable transmision) Now that kicked ass. Too bad it was baned before it ran.
As for Upshift downshift and how it works, I am preaty sure it is computer controled so it can make the best choice of what u need before u need. If u start accelerating, and u are close to rev limit, it will sellect the next ger as upshift, but if u decelerate(bracke) it will select downshift. so it could be useful. I made a mistake earlier. But it is heavier (not as much as automatick), and less eficient(again not as much as auto). In the end it is a meter of choise.
In my opinion the best trany ever built was Wiliams F1 in 94 I think. CVT (continuosly variable transmision) Now that kicked ass. Too bad it was baned before it ran.
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
arakis said:
Well simpy it has 2 cluctches, insted of one, and 2 rows of gears insted of one, well actually 3 insted of 2. thus more weight to be turned and more weight to lose power to.
As for Upshift downshift and how it works, I am preaty sure it is computer controled so it can make the best choice of what u need before u need. If u start accelerating, and u are close to rev limit, it will sellect the next ger as upshift, but if u decelerate(bracke) it will select downshift. so it could be useful. I made a mistake earlier. But it is heavier (not as much as automatick), and less eficient(again not as much as auto). In the end it is a meter of choise.
In my opinion the best trany ever built was Wiliams F1 in 94 I think. CVT (continuosly variable transmision) Now that kicked ass. Too bad it was baned before it ran.
I hate CVT's, I had a Murano with one, I hated it.
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
arakis said:Quote:
BluCamSS said:
I hate CVT's, I had a Murano with one, I hated it.
Could u explain why, did it have no soul or something
It doesn't shift, rpm's just keep building to redline. It felt odd, and no downshifting. It's nice for mileage, but I could NEVER get used to how it works.
Feb 13, 2006 6:28:03 PM
- teflon
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: 599GTB Fiorano (New Pics)
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Here, I looked up a refference for you:
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_317.shtml
Quote:
DSG is completely different from BMW's SMG and Ferrari's F1 system in that it has two clutches instead of one. This means that DSG can fire off an upshift in .008 seconds whereas BMW's SMG takes .8 seconds to make the same shift.
Carlos,
Thank you for the reference. I know how DSG works and I've driven an Audi A3 equipped with it.
The numbers quoted from that article are not correct. The BMW SMG II shifts in 80ms which is .08, not 0.8.
0.8 is 800ms. For comparison, the SMG III shifts at 65ms.
So, are the numbers in the article for the BMW simple typos, or are they actual mistakes? I can't consider the number quoted for the Audi as correct knowing that they didn't get the other numbers right.
I called Audi of America and also visited the website. The customer service rep I spoke to doesn't know actual numbers, so that was of no help.
Here are two snippets from the site: http://www.audiusa.com/EventPastDetails/...eNum-1_,00.html
Quote:
When compared to a manual, DSG can deliver faster shifts - less than .2 seconds - better acceleration figures, and more economical fuel consumption.
http://www.audiusa.com/lexicon/0]http://www.audiusa.com/lexicon/0,2110,categoryId-2_,00.html
Quote:
The DSG driving experience combines the driving excitement of a manual with the comfort of an automatic. Inside the cockpit, drivers experience superbly ergonomic and intuitive design, and engage Tiptronic(R) mode simply by using paddle shifters located on the steering wheel (optional). Whereas in conventional single clutch manuals, power flow is interrupted whenever the driver steps on the clutch pedal, with DSG the clutch for the first gear opens exactly as the other clutch engages the next gear, producing shifts in less than .2 seconds. When compared to a manual, DSG can deliver faster shifts, better acceleration figures and more economical fuel consumption. DSG is available as an option in the TT and A3.
This is from Audi's own website! A vague reference to less than 200ms is a far cry from the 8ms in the VW Vortex article. Which do you consider more reliable, Audi of America or VW Vortex?
Greg A
Feb 13, 2006 6:46:45 PM
- rosso nuvola
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Feb 13, 2006 7:09:55 PM
- teflon
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