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    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Trundle 997S in fact all the litigants had sign waivers. Generally,they are valid and upheld by the courts. However, the waivers do not apply to Porsche because none were signed regarding Porsche.



    Nick, please answer me this:
    If you go to a track, let's say California Speedway, with your F430, and you end up in the same situation Ben and Cory did; you are racing down the straight at close to 150 mph, when another car pulls out in front of you. You swerve, slide, hit the concrete barrier and you die. After you've been buried 20 feet deep, since deep down you lawyers are really nice guys, would you want your wife to sue Ferrari?
    Answer honestly, please.



    If the car in some way contributed to my death, yes. Assume just for argument that he was shown that Porsche new the CGT had a propensity to spin out at high speeds as a result of the slightest lifting of the throtte and turning of the wheel ( I do not if that is the case). What if anything to would you expect Porsche to do?

    If you take the approach that personal responsibility is all that matters consider the consequences and how it would impact your everyday life. Products placed on the market which are dangerous not only to the users but to those around the users and society saying should you or others be injuried tough you choose to use a dangerous product.

    My point is personal responsibility needs to extend to everyone in the stream of commerce. Otherwise, none of us would be buying sport cars because we do not want to risk our lives to enjoy the car. Put another way, producing reasonably safe sport cars increases sales.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Trundle 997S in fact all the litigants had sign waivers. Generally,they are valid and upheld by the courts. However, the waivers do not apply to Porsche because none were signed regarding Porsche.



    Nick, please answer me this:
    If you go to a track, let's say California Speedway, with your F430, and you end up in the same situation Ben and Cory did; you are racing down the straight at close to 150 mph, when another car pulls out in front of you. You swerve, slide, hit the concrete barrier and you die. After you've been buried 20 feet deep, since deep down you lawyers are really nice guys, would you want your wife to sue Ferrari?
    Answer honestly, please.



    If the car in some way contributed to my death, yes. Assume just for argument that he was shown that Porsche new the CGT had a propensity to spin out at high speeds as a result of the slightest lifting of the throtte and turning of the wheel ( I do not if that is the case). What if anything to would you expect Porsche to do?

    If you take the approach that personal responsibility is all that matters consider the consequences and how it would impact your everyday life. Products placed on the market which are dangerous not only to the users but to those around the users and society saying should you or others be injuried tough you choose to use a dangerous product.

    My point is personal responsibility needs to extend to everyone in the stream of commerce. Otherwise, none of us would be buying sport cars because we do not want to risk our lives to enjoy the car. Put another way, producing reasonably safe sport cars increases sales.



    Nick, even if the car had a tendency to spin out at high speeds, this doesn't make the manufacturer at fault. Travelling at high speed presents its inherent risks. Do you seriously think your F430 or an Enzo wouldn't have spun out? You can't fight the laws of physics and that's something we need to take into account when driving at such high speeds.
    Now, you haven't answered this the way I hoped you would. If it were you in YOUR OWN F430, losing your life in the exact same situation, would you want your wife to sue?
    Regarding safe sports cars, you can only go so far with complete safety. For ultimate performance you need to get rid of all the electronic aids (with the exception of ABS). Why does your 430's Manettino switch have the option to shut down all aids? Would your wife sue Ferrari if you wiped out with that option selected?
    I know what a safe sports car is: one driven at 60 mph tops. Anything faster than that cannot guarantee you safety and crashing at 160+ mph isn't the responsibility of the manufacturer.
    Now please Nick, just for the sake of this argument, answer me:
    "If you, Nick, crashed and died in the exact same situation at the California Speedway, the difference being you driving the Ferrari 430, would you want your wife to sue?"

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Another thing. A car is a lethal weapon, no matter how small and slow.

    "Products placed on the market which are dangerous not only to the users but to those around the users and society saying should you or others be injuried tough you choose to use a dangerous product."

    Using your logic, any pedestrian could sue a car company because he was run over by somebody using that brand's car.
    The same concept can be applied to airplanes.
    And ironing equipment. If I burn myself with a hot iron, I can sue the company for putting out a dangerous product. Same can be said for stoves and ovens.
    Oh, and let us not forget my all time favorite - wood. I'll sue the lumberjack company for selling a dangerous product which can ignite or cause splinters to dig into your fingers.

    This, Nick, is what the world would look like, according to your logic.

    ANY product can be dangerous (if I drop a flower pot onto your head from the 3rd floor, are you gonna sue the potterist?) if used in a specific way.

    Same goes for cars. When I was a kid, I almost spun out in my father's FWD Audi A6, while taking a sharp 180* corner at over 60 mph and then lifting the throttle in mid-corner. If I crashed, could I sue Audi for making a dangerous car? No, that would be my fault, my error and any normal judge in a country other than the US would turn down my claim.
    Now that I think about it, if I lived in the US at that time and crashed, I could've had my very own 996TT at a young age of 18, courtesy of Audi AG .

    Spinning at 170 mph while lifting the throttle and sharply turning the steering wheel shouldn't come as a surprise to any driver. What happened was not the fault of Porsche, but a combination of unfortunate circumstances (that Ferrari wasn't supposed to be there) and simple physics. You think your Ferrari wouldn't have snapped? Or the 997TT? The Enzo perhaps? No, the story would be exactly the same in any car. Trying to claim anything else defies common sense and logic.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:Hey Nick you have had that CGT for almost 6 months and only 600 miles?
    My Spider is a little over two months old and has 1600 miles.



    Maybe he can walk to McDonalds and Starbucks, but you prefer to drive

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:Hey Nick you have had that CGT for almost 6 months and only 600 miles?
    My Spider is a little over two months old and has 1600 miles.



    Maybe he can walk to McDonalds and Starbucks, but you prefer to drive




    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    A knife will cut, a hot iron will burn and a light match will start a fire. What is your point?

    You never answered my question if Porsche knew this about their car should society require them to do something about like warn, instruct or use safety devices?

    Your position regarding sport cars is this;

    CAR MANUFACTURERS SHOULD SACRIFICE SAFETY FOR PERFORMANCE because Joe Public has to accept responsibility for their own actions.

    I admantly disagree!

    Mike, I have no doubt you would enjoy your CGT as much if not more had they equipped with PSM. In light of the recent incidents involving the CGT, I do not know how you can feel comfortable driving the car at reasonable high speeds.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    A knife will cut, a hot iron will burn and a light match will start a fire. What is your point?

    You never answered my question if Porsche knew this about their car should society require them to do something about like warn, instruct or use safety devices?

    Your position regarding sport cars is this;

    CAR MANUFACTURERS SHOULD SACRIFICE SAFETY FOR PERFORMANCE because Joe Public has to accept responsibility for their own actions.

    I admantly disagree!

    Mike, I have no doubt you would enjoy your CGT as much if not more had they equipped with PSM. In light of the recent incidents involving the CGT, I do not know how you can feel comfortable driving the car at reasonable high speeds.



    Nick, this is where you contradict yourself. Your own F430 can only achieve maximum performance with the aids turned off. Maximum performance is always achieved at the expense of safety. It is the driver's responsibility to exercise proper judgement when deciding when to go all out.
    The problem with your mindset is that the individual isn't to blame. That's exactly who should be blamed. Your legal system is a joke and made fun of all around the world for exactly this reason (I like most of its other features, but this part ruins it).
    Before society evolved to the state it is in now, it was purely survival of the fittest and the smartest. That is not meant literally, but the fact is, that most of the time it was the idiots who died. I believe our western society would be a much better place if we adhered to this rule:

    "Just remove the damn warning stickers and let the idiots weed themselves out."

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:Mike, I have no doubt you would enjoy your CGT as much if not more had they equipped with PSM. In light of the recent incidents involving the CGT, I do not know how you can feel comfortable driving the car at reasonable high speeds.



    If I become the slightest bit concerned, I'll have my rear sway-bar reset to full soft.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Nick,

    And just where did the CGT begin to spin and lose control? On pavement or on the grass that borders the track ?

    It sounds as if Ben attempted to steer around the Ferrari
    entering the track, and in doing so drove of off the paved track and then lost control on the grass.

    Is that how it happened?

    Who saw what?

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:Hey Nick you have had that CGT for almost 6 months and only 600 miles?
    My Spider is a little over two months old and has 1600 miles.



    Maybe he can walk to McDonalds and Starbucks, but you prefer to drive



    HAHAHAHAHAHA. To answer your question, normally only take the CGT out for a 20-30 mile spin on the weekends. I have 5100 miles on the CT, 2500 miles on the GT3, and 600 miles on the M5, for a combined total of 8,200 miles. I think in terms of mileage, I'm a normal US driver.

    Now, back to the topic on hand. You still haven't answered Crash's question candidly, without putting a spin on it. I think his question is very direct and easy to understand. Please give us a straight answer...take your lawyer glasses off!
    -Nick

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    You never answered my question if Porsche knew this about their car should society require them to do something about like warn, instruct or use safety devices?



    I don't think Porsche needs to do any warning. Any "logical car enthusiast" would know this. My GT3, 380 hp no driver aids, or our family's CGT, 612 hp no driver aids, would snap oversteer under severe conditions. I've experienced this first hand at Leipzig with a GT3 and GT2, just lost it because I was "overzealous" and too hot. If you're too heavy with your right foot, shiet happens.

    Ben I repeat though, was NOT being stupid or overzealous!!! He was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, meant to happen. Any car swerving suddenly to avoid an object at 160/170 mph would probably spin and wipeout. You can't avoid the nature of physics. It's just like before, how when I visited the Audi boards, some people questioned why they spun out in the rain even with Quattro pushing 100 mph on the highway IN THE RAIN. Doh, even with all the driver aids in the world, you can't beat physics.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    A430v said:
    I don't think Porsche needs to do any warning. Any "logical car enthusiast" would know this. My GT3, 380 hp no driver aids, or our family's CGT, 612 hp no driver aids, would snap oversteer under severe conditions. I've experienced this first hand at Leipzig with a GT3 and GT2, just lost it because I was "overzealous" and too hot. If you're too heavy with your right foot, shiet happens.

    Ben I repeat though, was NOT being stupid or overzealous!!! He was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, meant to happen. Any car swerving suddenly to avoid an object at 160/170 mph would probably spin and wipeout. You can't avoid the nature of physics. It's just like before, how when I visited the Audi boards, some people questioned why they spun out in the rain even with Quattro pushing 100 mph on the highway IN THE RAIN. Doh, even with all the driver aids in the world, you can't beat physics.



    Well said.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Caveat Emptor (buyer beware)! I believe in that wholeheartedly. But, in this case, I believe Porsche is somewhat liable. If they have the foresight to put side airbags (which aren't require at the time), they should have installed some form of traction control. Especially, on a vehichle which has in excess of 600hp. All other vehicles with that much power have it, e.g Enzo, Murcie,SLR etc.

    So, it would seem Porsche is a bit neglible with this already percieved "difficult" car to tame.

    Nick, if you hammer this point to the jury, Porsche will be lighter in the wallet.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Nick,

    And just where did the CGT begin to spin and lose control? On pavement or on the grass that borders the track ?

    It sounds as if Ben attempted to steer around the Ferrari
    entering the track, and in doing so drove of off the paved track and then lost control on the grass.

    Is that how it happened?

    Who saw what?



    This is a matter of public record so I will share it with you.

    Ben's speed was less than 130mph. The Ferrari pulling out cause Ben to take evasive action. Based on skid marks the car went into a spin almost immediately. This all occurred on pavement. When he left the pavement, his estimated speed was less than 100mph. He continued the spin for approximately 100 yards before he hit the barrier.

    His speed when he hit the barrier has not to my knowledge been established. But it would be safe to assume much less than 100mph.

    Crash, if there is one thing we know for certain regarding the CGT, it is that Porsche made a conscious decision to forego safety to enhance performance. But for W. Rorhl insistence, the car would have been devoid of any safety devices. That to me is irresponsible and cries for justice.

    Also, I thought I answered the question but since it has elluded you and Nick, let me answer again. I would haunt my wife until her dying days if she did no take legal action given the facts I described above.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    "CAR MANUFACTURERS SHOULD SACRIFICE SAFETY FOR PERFORMANCE because Joe Public has to accept responsibility for their own actions."

    I admantly disagree!



    Bullshit.
    Why don't you prove that by suing Ferrari for the lack of side airbags? If THAT's not sacrificed safety, nothing else is.

    Edit: Seems like your public knowledge differs from mine:
    http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html
    "the car was doing more than 100 mph when it crashed, authorities said."

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Caveat Emptor (buyer beware)! I believe in that wholeheartedly. But, in this case, I believe Porsche is somewhat liable. If they have the foresight to put side airbags (which aren't require at the time), they should have installed some form of traction control. Especially, on a vehichle which has in excess of 600hp. All other vehicles with that much power have it, e.g Enzo, Murcie,SLR etc.

    So, it would seem Porsche is a bit neglible with this already percieved "difficult" car to tame.

    Nick, if you hammer this point to the jury, Porsche will be lighter in the wallet.



    If Nick hammers this point to the jury he will make a fool of himself... the Carrera GT DOES have Traction Control. Are you a Ferrari dealer or something?

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Crash, if there is one thing we know for certain regarding the CGT, it is that Porsche made a conscious decision to forego safety to enhance performance.



    How do you arrive at that conclusion???? The CGT has more safety items than your F430!!! The only safety issues with a car such as the CGT arrise exclusively from its sheer performance and sport handling orientation... you cannot compromise that if you are building a supercar!! just like Ferrari didn't on their F40 or Enzo, or McLaren F1, Pagani Zondo and so on and so on. Its the buyers responsability to use a supercar appropiately and to take responsability of driving such a machine and accidents you expose yourself to. Just like I do when a jump in my sportbike.

    There is no logic to this, not to anyone with an IQ higher than 90, its all demagogy, twisted half-truths, double-standards, etc. in order to scavange some money form a big company. Period.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Brunner side airbags are a red herring and you know that. The car isn't any more dangerous because of the lack of side airbags. My cayenne does not have side airbags. Also, they did not help Ben or Corey.

    All top high performance sport cars have stability management systems including Porsche. Porsche chose not to install it in the CGT for ONLY ONE REASON. TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE.

    Settle down open your mind and hope Porsche in the future does the right thing.

    Regarding how Ben's accident occurred, it is no skin off my back if you choose to believe the TV report.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    The forensics of the accident will be unlike the previous Porsche lawsuits.

    The factory will be able to show the jury precisely what happened because of the on board black box technology.

    That combined with a representative 3D model video reconstruction, will give Porsche the opportunity to show how the CGT electronic safety systems intervened and how the driver reacted to a hopeless situation.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Caveat Emptor (buyer beware)! I believe in that wholeheartedly. But, in this case, I believe Porsche is somewhat liable. If they have the foresight to put side airbags (which aren't require at the time), they should have installed some form of traction control. Especially, on a vehichle which has in excess of 600hp. All other vehicles with that much power have it, e.g Enzo, Murcie,SLR etc.

    So, it would seem Porsche is a bit neglible with this already percieved "difficult" car to tame.

    Nick, if you hammer this point to the jury, Porsche will be lighter in the wallet.



    If Nick hammers this point to the jury he will make a fool of himself... the Carrera GT DOES have Traction Control. Are you a Ferrari dealer or something?



    Isn't ASR antiquated? I thought Porsche should be on the cutting edge in terms of safety?

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Our litigious US society....to me is out of control!!
    Acceptance of responsibility seems to have disapeared.

    Safety nets for everything, warning labels abound.

    Placing the blame on the car (ie Porsche) because the driver did not have the skills, training or expertise to maintain control at high rates of speed when the unexpected happened to cause a over correction, a abrupt lift, a spin.
    Driving at speed requires 110% concentration, one slight lapse of concentration can spell disaster.

    But somehow the mfg of the car (The deep Pockets) is to blame for the incident in an unfortunate series of events.

    Sadly, it's all about $$$ not the culpability of the driver who willingly accepted the inherent risks that motorsports present.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    I am a lawyer in California, although not like Nick -- I handle mergers and acquisitions and other complex business transactions and the only time I have seen the inside of a court room was to pay a speeding ticket. Personally, the Keaton matter and the 930 cases disappoint me terribly. Especially in Southern California, Americans lack personal responsibility and have a lottery attitude when it comes to the court system. I've been victim to it first hand when I was once sued by the passenger of a car that rear ended me (surely because I was driving a Porsche and work at a large law firm so the plaintiff saw dollar signs). Moreover, I worry that these cases may cause car manufacturers to limit the availability of high performance cars in the US.

    Nick seems to say that personal resposibility of the driver is not really the issue here because you also have to consider the responsibility of the manufacturer to produce a safe automobile. While that may be a valid, general argument in favor of product liability laws, I just don't think the argument applies to this situation (or the 930 cases for that matter). It's not like we are talking about a Ford with an improperly designed gas tank here. I just don't understand how we got to this situation where every time a car manufacturer develops a new safety innovation it becomes negligence if they do not include it on every car. Let's say that tomorrow Porsche comes out with an innovative new failsafe system that automatically avoids every car crash like Kitt on Knightrider and it only costs $1 to produce. Is it negligence if Porsche does not install this system on their 200+MPH RACE CAR? The answer is clearly "no" in my opinion.

    Why should it make a difference that the CGT does not have PSM or other driver aids or that Porsche failed to warn purchasers that driving at 130MPH+ is dangerous (BTW, as to the warning I'm sure you will find one in the owner's manual)? I find this totally disingenuous. Nick, do you really really expect us to believe that the Keaton matter would not have resulted in a lawsuit if the CGT had PSM or if Ben Keaton was required to take a safety class before operating the car? Please . . .

    These cases are not at all about public saftey, they are purely about money. It really sickens me when lawyers and their clients hide behind these paternalistic cloaks when their real motive is economic. If lawyers really wanted to stop people from hurting themselves with fast cars then they would lobby Congress to pass a law requiring rev limiters so that the cars could not exceed say 80MPH. But of course they will not do that because then they would go broke with nobody to sue (or in Nick's case, nobody to defend).

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    And what proof would there be that PSM would have made a difference in this case. Probably none.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    U Boat Commander said:
    I've been victim to it first hand when I was once sued by the passenger of a car that rear ended me (surely because I was driving a Porsche and work at a large law firm so the plaintiff saw dollar signs).



    I hope you won that case.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    I hope you won that case.



    Ha! Can you believe that crap! I got rear ended going 15MPH and I got sued by the other guy's passenger who claimed "soft tissue damage". What a country! And she didn't even sue the poor government worker who was driving her car. My insurance company told the plaintiff to F off and I never heard another word about it. It did suck getting served at my office though.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Brunner side airbags are a red herring and you know that. The car isn't any more dangerous because of the lack of side airbags. My cayenne does not have side airbags.



    To stray off-topic a bit, what year is your Cayenne Nick? My '05 CT has side airbags AND side curtain (head protection) airbags. Just curious...maybe they didn't have this for your model year, but sounds unlikely, because my '00 A4 had side airbags.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Brunner side airbags are a red herring and you know that. The car isn't any more dangerous because of the lack of side airbags.



    WRONG and you know it becuase I take you for a smarter persaon than that. Try this, smack you head agaist the inside door/window of your F430, then put a pillow in betweed and repeat procedure... see which you would like in case of an accident, or better which you would like for a member of your familly riding with you in the car.

    Quote:
    nberry said:All top high performance sport cars have stability management systems including Porsche. Porsche chose not to install it in the CGT for ONLY ONE REASON. TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCE.



    WRONG AGAIN. Tell me which supercar has an electronic stability managment systmem? the ENZO? nope, the Zonda? nope, Koenigsegg? nope, and so on...
    Reason? becuase an electronic stability system is too intrusive at the limit and negates the very purpose of a supercar.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    A430v said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Brunner side airbags are a red herring and you know that. The car isn't any more dangerous because of the lack of side airbags. My cayenne does not have side airbags.



    To stray off-topic a bit, what year is your Cayenne Nick? My '05 CT has side airbags AND side curtain (head protection) airbags. Just curious...maybe they didn't have this for your model year, but sounds unlikely, because my '00 A4 had side airbags.



    I think Nick hadn't gone through the car's standard and optional list very carefully. Sidebags are standard equipment in every Cayenne and have been since it went onto the market.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    If Nick hammers this point to the jury he will make a fool of himself... the Carrera GT DOES have Traction Control. Are you a Ferrari dealer or something?



    Isn't ASR antiquated? I thought Porsche should be on the cutting edge in terms of safety?



    1* No its not, TC has a different application tha electronic stability systems. There are cars were you would want TC and cars were you would want epectronic stability. In a car such a the CGT (or Enzo) you want a TC such as the ASR, a PSM/CST would hamper performance and sportiness. Its like dropping the suspension as low as a sportcars on a 4x4 offroader to increase stability.

    2* Cutting edge in safety? yes, new airbag appplications, crash absorbent chasis, AWD's, specially approvd tires in conjunctiuon with makers/suppliersetc, etc... in terms of stability systems, again, Porsche had PSM before Ferrari had their CST.

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Just been watching the Olympic downhill skiing from Italy.

    How's that relevant to this thread?

    Just the fact that I can't imagine any of those guys even dreaming of suing the ski, boot, binding, pole and/or goggle manufacturers when they have one of their accidents!

     
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