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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

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    Feb 10, 2006 2:54:24 AM

    MMD
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    MMD
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    Registered on: Dec 16, 2004
    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Actually checked out a vette CLOSELY today.

    I looked at a new vette up close and personal for about a half hour today. My conclusion?

    If it didn't look like a Corvette I might have bought one (the muscle/rocket car image suuuuucks).

    Then again, the thing is way too cheaply made (interior components materials, etc) for me to be interested.

    When you're used to quality (in the things you have) and used to paying for that quality you can't see "good value" as a good enough value.



    Discerning razor thin performance comps? Ehhhh, I don't track the car, I just avoid speeding tickets on public roads. If Porsche would just slap a 450 hp in their base Carrera the comps with Corvette would be over.

    Feb 10, 2006 4:25:00 AM

    neosky
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    neosky
    Loc: Taiwan
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    Registered on: Jan 20, 2006
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    I think the whole idea of Porsche being the most profitable company in the world have twisted the whole thing around. First of all, if they can make a car that is good to drive, has character, satisfy its customers (in terms of value, experience), so good for them!
    I really don't care if GM or Ford produce a car that is bang for the money but [censored] to drive, because in the end, it's still crap.

    Feb 10, 2006 4:55:38 AM

    Targa Tim
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    Targa Tim
    Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada , Canada
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    Reply to: WW

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    WW said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    WW said:
    I was wondering if there is a way to make the regular 997's lighter and not suffering too much of the creature comfort. I'd say a 3200 LB 997 will kick ass.



    Why do you ask? From your above post I would have thought you'd be driving a Corvette.

    I may drive the 911 if they make one faster than the new Z

    Seriously, they should get rid of the backseats for the 997tt. No one ever uses them anyway. Let's use more carbon fiber. Get rid of the AWD, or at least make it an option. It would save about 200lb. Better yet, make it like vette, putting in a aluminum space frame. Then it would be a 3,000lb. It may raise the price a little, but it would outgun the new Z06.



    Before you start commenting on a Porsche, make sure you have done enough research because your above comment sounds like someone who doesn't know anything about 911.

    The rear seats of 911 is most useful and make it way more practical than its competitors. I always have a 911 for the last ten years and my 3 kids love the rear seats.

    The 997TT need not change a thing. For more horsepower, wait for the 997TTS. If you think it is too heavy, then get a 997GT3. Want more horsepower and 2WD, wait for the 997GT2.

    Anyone who own a 997 can afford a Z06, but yet we are not getting one because straight line performance and track time to us is only useful for discussion on the forums. They are of absolutely no use in real life city driving.

    Feb 10, 2006 8:05:09 AM

    intheloop
    Junior
    intheloop
    Loc: Chicago
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    Registered on: Jan 29, 2006
    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    I'm sorry: "a transverse leaf spring at either end" ... better? Still going to be pretty crude in it's reactions even on the smoothest of roads. So fine for flat race tracks, not so fine for real world public roads.



    Fact is, the Corvette's ability to absorb bumps in the road, and stay planted and poised, is world-class. It's the bushing, damping and the chassis rigidity that doesn't quite make it, it's the details. Has not a damn thing to do with the rear suspension geometry. You hear "leaf spring", and you jump to a false conclusion, a stereotype. Ya probably think that the Z06 engine is "crude and archaic" because it's got pushrods too.... Sorry I'm being so harsh, but if we're going to proudly defend ourselves against the Vette guys, least we can do is be half-way educated about it...



    The Corvette's ability to stay planted and to absorb bumps is world class?!?! Either you haven't driven a Vette in a competitive setting, or you haven't driven a 911 in a competitive setting. Sorry, let me rephrase: doesn't sound like you've driven them back to back in a competitive setting. If the Vette is world class, than the 911 is galaxy-defeating!

    Name the parking lot and I'll bring the cones and my 911 S. We'll set up a nice slalom and a lane toss excercise, throwing in some broken pavement in the apex of the turn. Then tell me how world class the Vette is...

    Feb 10, 2006 9:05:07 AM

    Alex_997TT
    Rennteam Master
    Alex_997TT
    Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
    Posts: 3320, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 20, 2005
    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    I'm sorry: "a transverse leaf spring at either end" ... better? Still going to be pretty crude in it's reactions even on the smoothest of roads. So fine for flat race tracks, not so fine for real world public roads.



    No, not better. It's ONE transverse leaf spring in the rear, period, and it's damn effective and refined. You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, yet you ASSUME that there's some relationship between the suspension setup on the Corvette, and that of a 1975 AMC Gremlin, and that the Corvette must be crude on rough roads by virtue of using a leaf spring... That is highly naive commentary I'm afraid. Fact is, the Corvette's ability to absorb bumps in the road, and stay planted and poised, is world-class. It's the bushing, damping and the chassis rigidity that doesn't quite make it, it's the details. Has not a damn thing to do with the rear suspension geometry. You hear "leaf spring", and you jump to a false conclusion, a stereotype. Ya probably think that the Z06 engine is "crude and archaic" because it's got pushrods too.... Sorry I'm being so harsh, but if we're going to proudly defend ourselves against the Vette guys, least we can do is be half-way educated about it...



    I'm SO sure you are right that the road handling capability have nothing to do with it's choice of suspension that I am heading straight down to my nearest OPC now and demanding they recall all 997s and retrofit the same setup as in the Corvette! How DARE Porsche even question the "world-class" example Chevrolet have set.

    Feb 10, 2006 12:14:14 PM

    Alex_997TT
    Rennteam Master
    Alex_997TT
    Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
    Posts: 3320, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 20, 2005
    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    "Leaf springs"!! ...as in the TYPE, not as in plural

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1218157444012227484&q=top+gear

    Feb 10, 2006 2:30:29 PM

    sato
    Pilot
    sato
    Loc: New York, U.S.A.
    Posts: 364, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 8, 2005
    Reply to: intheloop

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    intheloop said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    I'm sorry: "a transverse leaf spring at either end" ... better? Still going to be pretty crude in it's reactions even on the smoothest of roads. So fine for flat race tracks, not so fine for real world public roads.



    Fact is, the Corvette's ability to absorb bumps in the road, and stay planted and poised, is world-class. It's the bushing, damping and the chassis rigidity that doesn't quite make it, it's the details. Has not a damn thing to do with the rear suspension geometry. You hear "leaf spring", and you jump to a false conclusion, a stereotype. Ya probably think that the Z06 engine is "crude and archaic" because it's got pushrods too.... Sorry I'm being so harsh, but if we're going to proudly defend ourselves against the Vette guys, least we can do is be half-way educated about it...



    The Corvette's ability to stay planted and to absorb bumps is world class?!?! Either you haven't driven a Vette in a competitive setting, or you haven't driven a 911 in a competitive setting. Sorry, let me rephrase: doesn't sound like you've driven them back to back in a competitive setting. If the Vette is world class, than the 911 is galaxy-defeating!

    Name the parking lot and I'll bring the cones and my 911 S. We'll set up a nice slalom and a lane toss excercise, throwing in some broken pavement in the apex of the turn. Then tell me how world class the Vette is...



    Bad move intheloop . . .

    Feb 10, 2006 2:37:59 PM

    AJVIP
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    AJVIP
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    Reply to: sato

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    I think Boss Nine is crafting together, right now, his usual witty comment to end this thread on a high note

    Feb 10, 2006 3:43:57 PM

    69bossnine
    Rennteam Pro
    69bossnine
    Loc: FL, USA , United States
    Posts: 2028, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 27, 2005
    Reply to: AJVIP

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    I really have nothing to say to someone who's idea of "throwing down the gauntlet" involves a parking lot and cones (should I bring my skate board?), and another guy who's still trying to dig out of the fact he's never taken a knee and looked under a Corvette, let alone driven one.

    I think my loyalty is evidenced by my ownership, but since I've owned (and still own) many different makes and models of cars, and have seen all too much blind partisanship on other forums, it disappoints me to see it here, where the debates are usually top-rate and objective.

    I find it silly, and highly ironic, that we see fit to denigrate the Corvette for it's rear suspension, while we drive around in rear-engined cars, where the wonder of it all is in how the engineers have managed to make it work all these years. I see quite a parallel between Chevy sticking by its historical layout, and Porsche sticking by theirs, when they both know that if they started with a blank sheet of paper, and no historical perspective, that NEITHER company would design what we're driving today.

    I've gotta figure that the same sort of elitist nose-thumbing and guffawing was prominent right before Ford crossed the line 1,2,3 at Le Mans in 1966

    Feb 10, 2006 4:19:43 PM

    997S4KEN
    Junior
    997S4KEN
    Loc: Ventura, CA
    Posts: 100, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 29, 2005
    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Well, the handling on the new C6 Vette is pretty good, world class I dont know?? Leaf Springs is kind of funny, but if it AINT broke why fix it... The feeling and involvement of the 911 is something that has to be felt not written about. I think both cars have soul, and sure style is always subjective, but what wins my heart, and this coming from someone that has always coveted Corvettes, is the 911. It makes me smile and feel like no other car I've ever driven. Do 911's have issues sure what car doesnt. Sooooooooo is a 911 better than a C6 Vette? You have to look at the whole picture, aside from just raw numbers the 911 is a pinnacle of modern driving. The Vettes pushrod power cannot be denied. Two different tastes IMO.

    Im not throwing stones just an observation. The Rennteam forum is much more open minded and logical than the Corvette forum. Debates or discussions like these always end up oned sided, sometimes in a very crude way. So to all you Rennteamers have heart knowing that your gentleman ways are noted and appreciated. Atleast by me anyway.

    Feb 11, 2006 10:25:18 PM

    Jim_in_Iowa
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    Jim_in_Iowa
    Loc: US
    Posts: 336, Gallery
    Registered on: May 18, 2005
    Reply to: WW

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    WW said:
    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    That is just a pile of crap. GM is not teaching Porsche anything about how to make a sportscar - rather, it has been the other way around for decades, and GM is finally beginning to catch on. GM is not teaching Porsche anything about value either. Porsche is one of the most profitable automobile manufacturers in the world. GM? NOT.


    GM is not. But the Corvette division is. It is by far the most successful car brand in US history. 50+years of royal following and you have to give it some credit. Yes, as a whole the GM bus. model is in the tank. But tha is mostly due to their pension and health care plans for their workers. They could easily be the No.1 automaker again if they somehow shed those responsibilities that their competitors are not burdened with. Of course, it's easy said than done.

    As to the new Z06, it is IMHO setting the whole sportscar world on its side if not upside down. You can deny it yourself. But the fact is that someone came to the plate and hit one out of the park. $70 grand for a car that perforce up-to or better than anything under $200,000. That is pretty significant.



    Well we can't blame the employees health care costs and pensions for crappy products. One could just as easily blame the executive compensation, and both approaches would be wrong.

    The reason GM is in trouble is competition is tougher than it's ever been, they don't have the market share they once had, and the key linchpin, their products, by and large, aren't good enough to compete.

    Remember the Z24 Cavalier? What enthusiast would buy one of those instead of a Scirocco or a Celica GT?

    Why do they have so many car lines? What's the real difference between a Buick and a Pontiac nowadays? Trim? Back in the day (before 1970), there really was some difference, but not now. The Japanese have decided two tier branding is enough, Lexus and Toyota, Acura and Honda, Inifinity and Nissan. Having over a half dozen lines of cars makes no sense.

    GM is in trouble not because of their employees, but because their management hasn't been insisting on turning out cars that people would choose over other brands. That element is under the full control of management, not their employees. Corvette and the Cadillac division seem to realize that, and are doing some impressive things.

    One could argue the Corvette has made more improvement over the last 20 years than the 911 (I'd still want to own the 911, of course). The rest of GM is firehosing rebates to move cars that people don't want unless they're an apparent "bargain." It might work as a tactic occasionally, but will fail as a long term strategy.

    The one liner quip would be, "It's the cars, stupid." (Not an insult directed at anyone, in the U.S. one of the papers said why one canidate won over the other, "It's the economy, stupid" Bad economy=incumbent looses.)

    Jim
     
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