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    Feb 8, 2006 10:52:26 PM

    jandreas
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    Reply to: vtrader

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    This is from the 1980s. It has no revelance to today.


    I posted the newspaper clippings because in other (locked) threads discussing an upcoming CGT lawsuit comparisons were made to the 930 lawsuit from the eighties. Much like the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit, once you learn what actually happened the judgements start to sound a little less crazy. Porsche lost the 930 suit almost entirely because they tried to pull one over on the jury. The driver could have been going 300mph it wouldn't have made difference once the "anonymous insider" came forward.

    Feb 8, 2006 10:54:05 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: !

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    I'm trying to be nice to the poor guy, Fritz.



    Like I said, much too generous.

    Feb 8, 2006 11:30:53 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    You would be a dream witness for the Plaintiff. Each question led to more trap doors opening. I suggest you offer your testimony to Porsche.

    BTW, speaking of ethical considerations, I have one more question for you.

    If a spanish terrorist was wounded in a get away and he came to your office for treatment would you treat him?

    HEHEHE

    Feb 9, 2006 12:35:36 AM

    Lazy Cat
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Nick, i must tell you that imo all the answers to your questions are NO, and for the number 5, i don't think that at legal speeds, the cgt is more dangerous than any other car, i would even say that it's much safer at normal speeds, because it has much more grip. If the driver wants to go over the limits and break the law, he must understand that it's dangerous, and that he does it at his own risks.

    Feb 9, 2006 1:11:04 AM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: Lazy Cat

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    It is all about money.

    All these lawsuit arguments are ludicrous.

    There is only one reason Porsche could get sued, it is if the car is deffective (and not because of maintenance negligence).

    Other than that, in all these types of lawsuits, money and pure greed is what drives all these charades.

    That reminds me of Porsche stopping leasing in NY state because they got sued when a driver who leased the car from Porsche had a big accident, and Porsche financial was found liable as "owner" of the car.

    The penal system in the US gives advantages to the attacking party, and some very smart lawyers find ways to get around ethics and good sense. In europe, none of these trials are even attempted because the attacker wouldn'd win.

    I think it says a lot about peoples' character when they get involved in such trials.

    For argument sake Nick, you haven't answered if you would get involved if it was Ferrari.
    Let's say Ferrari would ban you from buying one of their car ever in the US, would you do it?

    Feb 9, 2006 1:24:01 AM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:

    If a spanish terrorist was wounded in a get away and he came to your office for treatment would you treat him?




    I would treat him, neutralize him and turn him to the authorites.
    What else any normal person would do? (and a doctor who took an oath to treat people).

    This doesn't have anything to do with all the above though...

    Feb 9, 2006 1:35:13 AM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    I would sue Ferrari if they had wrong me. As a matter of fact, I had an issue with my first Ferrari and it cost $12,000 to repair which Ferrari refused to pay. After pursuing them, they paid me and decided to pay others as well.

    I raise the issue of ethical considerations because Carlos inquired why I would pursue a case even if I felt in my own mind it was not morally right. If my client has a legal viable case, I should prosecute it.

    Feb 9, 2006 1:41:04 AM

    sdy284
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Quote:

    If a spanish terrorist was wounded in a get away and he came to your office for treatment would you treat him?




    I would treat him, neutralize him and turn him to the authorites.
    What else any normal person would do? (and a doctor who took an oath to treat people).

    This doesn't have anything to do with all the above though...


    hehe, you're new here....you'll get used to nberry's posts or you'll have a psychotic breakdown.

    Feb 9, 2006 2:17:11 AM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: sdy284

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Everybody has a right to legal reprensentation, even for the worst crimes.

    But when people sue and win in cases like the ones discussed here, it just lowers people's trust and rescpect to the justice or at least its application.
    Makes people think that with money, they can get away with anything. Sociologicaly, the society gains nothing there.

    Although new here, I am already familiar with Nick's contreversial posts. And although I don't agree with him on many things, everyone has a right to their opinion. It is up to the others to argue you point but no one can tell the other one to zip it.

    Feb 9, 2006 6:59:30 AM

    vinnie
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    For those who have not seen how tricky the CGT can be, even for professional drivers have a look at this video, it's a repost.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5956630212110957109&q=Porsche+GT

    It's quite surprising that there was no PASM on the CGT.
    Enzo and the Zonda both have stability management.

    I agree with Jeremy that the CGT is the most exciting, the best looking, the most expensive and the fastest road going Porsche ever made even though as RC said, it has the soul of a Ferrari.

    Feb 9, 2006 7:15:25 AM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, speaking of ethical considerations, I have one more question for you.

    If a spanish terrorist was wounded in a get away and he came to your office for treatment would you treat him?




    Thats not the same case, in this case omision of emergency treatment may lead to death for example. I have never heard of anyone needing "emergency" legal representation
    Another difference, the treatment would be after the act, not before leading to it or adding him in it, yet offering legal reprensentation in the lawsuit against Porsche would be aiding the person in that very thing that you consider wrong.
    Yet using you example, if I was an electrition and they needed my services in order to develop a bomb, I would not help them and turn them in.

    But if a person wants to SCAM a car maker for a big amount of cash, there are mercenary lawyers who would help him achieve it for a healthy comission (which would in turn help pay the very thing that caused the lawsuit, how ironinc) by playing the legal systmem and "taking advantage" of it. This is the issue we are talking about here and its inexcusable. The greediness of a few that can lead to the misfortune of all sportcar enthusiasts.

    Feb 9, 2006 7:41:44 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Physician save thyself!

    If the patient was a fugitive "known terrorist" with a 24 million dollar price tag, I suggest a rapid 9X19MM brain treatment during the initial consultation.

    Feb 9, 2006 9:06:58 AM

    Tim
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I raise the issue of ethical considerations because Carlos inquired why I would pursue a case even if I felt in my own mind it was not morally right. If my client has a legal viable case, I should prosecute it.



    So no matter how ridiculous the claim may be, if you see a chance to make big bucks you will go for it? Sad. Sad.

    ------

    This lawsuit is about GREED and nothing else.

    If Porsche loses this case, then we will know for sure that justice and reason have ceased to exist in the US legal system.

    If Ben could see this, he would turn in his grave.

    Tim

    Feb 9, 2006 10:23:12 AM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    It is all about money.

    All these lawsuit arguments are ludicrous.

    Other than that, in all these types of lawsuits, money and pure greed is what drives all these charades.

    That reminds me of Porsche stopping leasing in NY state because they got sued when a driver who leased the car from Porsche had a big accident, and Porsche financial was found liable as "owner" of the car.

    I think it says a lot about peoples' character when they get involved in such trials.





    100% agreed All this has nothing to do with justice or product liability, it's just the result of a powerful "lawsuit-industry".

    And even worse this industry does really harm the US economy: how many businesses had to lay off people or even stop doing business due to ridiculous "punitive payments" or excessive insurance premiums to cover this risk (your example of Porsche withdrawing from the NY leasing business is just one small example out of thousands).

    Even the US congress seems to have realised this meanwhile so that they are discussing a $$ cap for punitive payments (don't know whether lawmakers made a decision yet, but I'm wondering whether the powerful lawyers' lobby will prevail one more time).

    As for plaintiffs character (being greedy) - just human nature getting tempted by the big $$$: I am absolutely convinced, that we would see zillions of similar lawsuits in other countries outside the US, if the judicial system would be equal. Just imagine what happens, if an average guy with average income would be approached by a lawyer after a car accident telling him: I know how to extract some millions out of the carmakers pockets - don't care about my fees - we're going to share the loot. How many people would resist trying to earn a fortune form that kind of lottery

    I am denying to assume that the litigation happiness in the US is a characteristic of the American Way of Life - to me the US are all about personal freedom AND personal responsibility (including your choice of car and driving habits) at the same time. The lawsuit-industry just offers the "right" incentives for those being tempted by the big $$$ lottery (interesting business model which might work all over the planet IMO, if lawmakers in all the other countries would adopt the US system).

    Feb 9, 2006 2:53:16 PM

    dan996
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    I wonder if anyone here remembers the specifics about this case. I am trying to pull from my old computer (brain) some files and they may be corrupt (too much alcohol) but here are the things I remember: The 930 was a european version that Porsche Audi did not even sell and was imported be someone else. The co-worker was having an affair with the driver and both were drinking. The conditions were wet and high speed involved. Now how can any logical jury find Porsche Audi responsible? Nick, the bottom line for anyone with common sense is that they do not have to write a check for a car that has 612 hp and weighs 3000lbs. These facts alone will tell you this is not a common car. The accidents that I have seen here on Rennteam have not been the fault of the car as much as they have been the fault of the driver or circustance of racing. You have been going on about the dangers of the Carrera GT since Ben was in his racing accident. But it was racing on a track which involves higher degrees of risk and I am sure Ben was aware of this, as it was his passion. Everytime I go onto a race track I am aware of this and voluntarily take that risk. I see cars on the track that have more hp and weigh less on the track all the time. The girl in Europe that crashed that car was an irresponable decision by the owner to let her take it out for a spin. Not the fault of the car. Would you let a young girl take a rodeo bull out for a ride, when yound professional bull riders do it all the time. Is there a degree of risk? Even for the bull riders there is a large degree of risk. Your argument rings hollow to many here at Rennteam, but with the crazy illogical awards that jurys here in the USA give, you may be able to make your point with them. I personally hope you never get to argue this case because you came to your senses.

    Feb 9, 2006 3:05:59 PM

    AJVIP
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    Reply to: vinnie

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    vinnie said:
    For those who have not seen how tricky the CGT can be, even for professional drivers have a look at this video, it's a repost.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5956630212110957109&q=Porsche+GT

    It's quite surprising that there was no PASM on the CGT.
    Enzo and the Zonda both have stability management.

    I agree with Jeremy that the CGT is the most exciting, the best looking, the most expensive and the fastest road going Porsche ever made even though as RC said, it has the soul of a Ferrari.



    You mean PSM?

    Slightly OT -- I was one of those New Yorkers that could not least my P because of that liability law. I was forced to go through Options, and two months after I purchased the car, the damn law was repealed. I don't know if Porsche has any plans to reinstate leasing in NY however.

    Feb 9, 2006 5:15:32 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: dan996

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Juries decide these cases not lawyers.When I was President of the Associate Defense Trial Lawyers, I commissioned a study to determine what five factors influenced juries in their decision making. We surveyed over a 1000 jurors who completed a trial and this is what we found. The most influential factors in jury deliberation with the first being most important and last the least important are:

    1. Expert witnesses

    2. exhibits introduced at trail

    3. the Judge

    4. lay witnesses

    5. and the least important the lawyer

    Juries do not have a gun to their heads. The can decide the case so long as they follow the law.

    Many of you attack our jury awards but what fail to recognize that the product liability laws in the US have elevated the consciousness of safety among the corporate world. They have saved lives, injuries and led to better products. Without our laws, more than likely many of you would not be here to criticize it because at one time or another safety features have saved your butts.

    Feb 9, 2006 5:41:50 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Interesting results Nick

    Your findings can be easily be interpreted to support..

    A. Higher professional standards for trial lawyers.

    or

    B. Eliminating the ABA's monopoly over who can practice law.

    Actually, one good trial lawyer from Kentucky is worth 20
    expert winesses.

    My favourite lawyers are the ones who sue other lawyers for malpractice. Thats a really big business these days.

    Enough Lawyer'n and Corvette'n.

    Whats more important is that the TT will be released in only a few more days! All the details will be revealed
    providing endless discussion pro and con.

    Feb 9, 2006 5:51:24 PM

    easy_rider911
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Thank goodness we only have juries for criminal cases heard before the Crown Court (i.e. serious cases which carry a lengthy custodial sentence) and also for defamation cases (even that should be abolished in my opinion).

    Feb 9, 2006 6:11:41 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Easy-rider, we tried the British judicial system and it didnt work here.

    No offense, but Britain has always been about who keeps what at the top. While America as a revolutionary country was founded around what can joe average get from the guys at the top, or from the next guy over.

    If Britain had been established from immigrants and indentured servants battling indians and very distant land lords, you to would probably have our system of tort laws and punitive damages.

    Feb 9, 2006 6:47:10 PM

    Tim
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    I will just say:

    Public opinion often is the worst of all opinions.

    Tim

    Feb 10, 2006 3:15:28 AM

    JMShrink
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    While America as a revolutionary country was founded around what can joe average get from the guys at the top, or from the next guy over.


    Actually no. America was founded around joe average revolting to being EXPLOITED by the guys at the top..

    Feb 10, 2006 1:23:53 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: JMShrink

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    JMShrink said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    While America as a revolutionary country was founded around what can joe average get from the guys at the top, or from the next guy over.


    Actually no. America was founded around joe average revolting to being EXPLOITED by the guys at the top..



    Doctor (and Nick),

    This mentality (a perception-whether valid or not-many Americans have that they are being "exploited" by others) is THE primary explanation for our legal system's litigation phenomenon, to wit: jurors' (representing American citizens) preconceptions supporting enthusiasm for blaming someone or something else for their misfortune before they are selected by plaintiffs' and defendants' attorneys for trial are the most important determinant of a jury's decisions. So Nick and other attorneys and judges are not responsible for America's liability "crisis," instead Americans themselves are-and this phenomenon is spreading to European countries.

    Feb 10, 2006 5:23:42 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    JMShrink said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    While America as a revolutionary country was founded around what can joe average get from the guys at the top, or from the next guy over.


    Actually no. America was founded around joe average revolting to being EXPLOITED by the guys at the top..



    Doctor (and Nick),

    This mentality (a perception-whether valid or not-many Americans have that they are being "exploited" by others) is THE primary explanation for our legal system's litigation phenomenon, to wit: jurors' (representing American citizens) preconceptions supporting enthusiasm for blaming someone or something else for their misfortune before they are selected by plaintiffs' and defendants' attorneys for trial are the most important determinant of a jury's decisions. So Nick and other attorneys and judges are not responsible for America's liability "crisis," instead Americans themselves are-and this phenomenon is spreading to European countries.



    Yeah, it is indeed. A bunch of guys who studied law in the US came back and are now offering their services. One of them just recently bought an SLR

    Feb 10, 2006 5:31:12 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    And Nick, I'm truly disappointed at you. I seriously thought you were a fellow car enthusiast (albeit a bit on the provocative side ), but it seems that you're using Ben's and Cory's death to make a big case for yourself. I don't know what to say...
    Do you seriously BELIEVE it was Porsche's fault? The car swerved sharply at over 160 mph to avoid another car and in the process lost control - at a race track nonetheless! Ben and Cory both knew what they were putting themselves into and to blame Porsche for what happened is simply moronic. I sincerely hope you decide not to pursue this case, otherwise the view of you among members of this board might drastically change for the worse.

    Feb 10, 2006 9:20:07 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I sincerely hope you decide not to pursue this case, otherwise the view of you among members of this board might drastically change for the worse.



    I am not sure my reputation can get any worse.

    Unfortunately I am unable to respond to your other comments.

    BTW, the passenger has already brought suit against Porsche and it is being handled by the attorney who sued Porsche twice on the 930 and they paid twice.

    Feb 10, 2006 9:54:26 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    and from their website

    ...http://www.mcclellanlaw.com/content/section/2/38/

    The McClellan Law Firm has litigated two cases against Porsche involving the Turbo 930, in which the combination of power, turbo-lag and oversteer made the vehicle too difficult to handle for the average driver, without proper warnings and instruction.

    The first case, Garrison v. Porsche, arose out of the death of a husband and father who was a passenger in a Turbo 930, when the driver lost control on a city street and went into oncoming traffic. The jury awarded $2.5 million, which was upheld on appeal. The 1983 award tied the verdict for the death of Audie Murphy, a war hero and actor, for the largest wrongful death verdict in the state of California. Following the Garrison verdict, Porsche started offering driver's training to the purchasers of its high-performance, turbo-charged vehicles."""

    The second case, Trent v. Porsche, arose out of the death of a husband and father, when the Turbo 930 oversteered and collided with a telephone pole. The case settled for a confidential amount.

    I would be curious to know if they are also suing the racetrack, the course worker, the driver of the Ferrari waved onto the track incorrectly, Ferrari, the company that engineered the concrete barrier and the people that sold them the gas and tires to get there. I Doubt it.

    They will paint the CGT as having evil handling and as a car that should have been sold to the public with professional instruction. They might be succesful at that.

    Feb 10, 2006 9:57:04 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I sincerely hope you decide not to pursue this case, otherwise the view of you among members of this board might drastically change for the worse.



    I am not sure my reputation can get any worse.

    Unfortunately I am unable to respond to your other comments.

    BTW, the passenger has already brought suit against Porsche and it is being handled by the attorney who sued Porsche twice on the 930 and they paid twice.



    You're wrong. As much as we may bash you, you keep this place from getting boring and at times your arguments are actually very sensible and on the mark.
    Regarding the lawsuit, I hope that Porsche wins. The crash occured at a RACETRACK, it's not like the plaintiff's husband wasn't aware of the risks.
    In case Porsche loses this lawsuit, it will be a loss for american drivers since Porsche will probably avoid any future risk by simply halting sales of several of its models in the US (GT2, GT3).

    Btw, you said the plaintiff is already suing Porsche with the help of the "930" lawyer, but you refrained from answering any other questions.

    Does that mean that you, Nick, will represent Mrs. Keatons?

    Feb 10, 2006 10:02:59 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Nick is not the "930" lawyer.

    Feb 10, 2006 10:49:52 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Porsche & Lawsuits

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I sincerely hope you decide not to pursue this case, otherwise the view of you among members of this board might drastically change for the worse.



    I am not sure my reputation can get any worse.

    Unfortunately I am unable to respond to your other comments.

    BTW, the passenger has already brought suit against Porsche and it is being handled by the attorney who sued Porsche twice on the 930 and they paid twice.




    In case Porsche loses this lawsuit, it will be a loss for american drivers since Porsche will probably avoid any future risk by simply halting sales of several of its models in the US (GT2, GT3).



    Btw, you said the plaintiff is already suing Porsche with the help of the "930" lawyer, but you refrained from answering any other questions.

    Does that mean that you, Nick, will represent Mrs. Keatons?



    You mean if she decides to sue? That will be up to her.

    Porsche will continue to sell performance cars. Hopefully it will make Porsche offer safety devices, possibly screen buyers or require training. Do you realize the CGT is faster than some of the Indy race cars that A. J. Floyt drove and faster than the Le Mans cars driven by some of the past champions. They were required to have a special license and training to drive those cars.

    Jim, the track, the Ferrari club, the ferrari driver, the organizer of the event as well as Ben are named defendants.
     
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