Feb 8, 2006 5:24:04 AM
- bostonmini
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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo
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Feb 8, 2006 6:35:55 AM
- ray911
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Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
There is nor reason why they would change the old GT1 engine of the Turbo. The Carrera M97 engine has nothing to do with the turbo/gt3 one.
And it is said that they had in Weissach a turbo with more than 520 HP. Thus, there is no reason for them to change anything. This additional 30-45 HP more from the base 480 will be sufficient.
Anyway, the Turbo S will probably be not available for quite some time.
Everyone will go for the base model. Then they will release the PK, so everyone who is out for the newest model has a reason to switch again in 2007. The S version will just be available after some years to keep interest alive.
And it is said that they had in Weissach a turbo with more than 520 HP. Thus, there is no reason for them to change anything. This additional 30-45 HP more from the base 480 will be sufficient.
Anyway, the Turbo S will probably be not available for quite some time.
Everyone will go for the base model. Then they will release the PK, so everyone who is out for the newest model has a reason to switch again in 2007. The S version will just be available after some years to keep interest alive.
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
yah said:
Anyway, the Turbo S will probably be not available for quite some time.
Everyone will go for the base model. Then they will release the PK, so everyone who is out for the newest model has a reason to switch again in 2007. The S version will just be available after some years to keep interest alive.
Finally somebody who understands how the "Turbo Game" is working.
BTW: the GT2 MkII with the non-VTG engine already had 483 HP from "only" 3.6 l displacement. Especially on a twin turbo charged engine, increasing displacement doesn't make much sense. For what purpose? To increase torque?
The 997 Turbo has 480 HP "only", right. Looking at the GT2 MkII power figure and understanding that this car actually had only different chargers, larger intercoolers, a different motronic and some other minor mods to achieve this power compared to the standard 420 HP Turbo, the 480 HP figure of the 997 Turbo must be a very "conservative" power stating. I can't hide the feeling that Porsche certified the LOWEST achieved power figure during testing to be able to offer more power, especially on the paper
, later on. And with that overboost "gimmick", we still don't know how it works exactly, when it jumps in, how the maximum power will be affected and we also don't know if the performance figures have been achieved with overboost or without since the overboost function comes with the chrono sport package only.That said, it is way too early to discuss the Turbo S. I was hoping that Porsche does the same thing with the Turbo like they did with the Carrera, offering a Carrera and Carrera S from the beginning. But the rumors about it seem to have been wrong or maybe Porsche just reconsidered in the last minute, I don't know.
Fact is: I have to "live" with my standard 997 Turbo and yes, I will retrofit the powerkit if it will be possible. If Porsche is clever, they offer a retrofit possibility. But right now rumors indicate that a retrofit is highly unlikely.
Anyway...I don't expect more than 510 HP for the powerkit but this time, I expect slightly more for the Turbo S, I think that 520 are very likely. And to make it clear: since there isn't much room for improvement in the 0-60(62) mph performance territory, a Turbo S will show it's power advantage at higher speed ranges only, above 100 mph and more likely above 125 mph. Is it worth waiting for the Turbo S? Well, if you're owning a 996 Turbo S already, definetely yes. If you're owning a tuned 996 Turbo, waiting for the 997 Turbo S may be a good choice too. All the others should think twice before choosing to wait for the Turbo S because I highly doubt we'll see one over the next two years. And if the 997 Turbo is a success, the wait for a Turbo S can be even longer.
Feb 8, 2006 2:01:17 PM
- bostonmini
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Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
yah said:
There is nor reason why they would change the old GT1 engine of the Turbo. The Carrera M97 engine has nothing to do with the turbo/gt3 one.
And it is said that they had in Weissach a turbo with more than 520 HP. Thus, there is no reason for them to change anything. This additional 30-45 HP more from the base 480 will be sufficient.
Anyway, the Turbo S will probably be not available for quite some time.
Everyone will go for the base model. Then they will release the PK, so everyone who is out for the newest model has a reason to switch again in 2007. The S version will just be available after some years to keep interest alive.
I was not implying the use of the M97 but rather the GT1 block, as it has already been at 3.8 liters in the 993 RS, so why not give it all the discplacement we can!
Incidentally I agree with RC, I think 480 HP is more marketing and not necessarily super accurate (read LOW). Furthermore, it seems that perhaps with the overboost feature, the engineers effectively said "lets make it perform like 550 HP, even if it has to say 480" as no car has ever had such a broad spread of power/torque before...
Feb 8, 2006 2:21:39 PM
- ray911
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Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
As mentioned by RC: there is no reason for Porsche to increase displacement. Neither for more BHP nor more torque. Let's face it, if they wanted to give us 600BHP and 1000NM, they could have done it (with a different engine, other displacement etc). There is probably no one here questioning Porsches engineering skills.
Thus, the reason to get 480BHP now and then 510-525BHP later is not a technical but just a strategic descision, nothing else. The current engine is capable of 525BHP and probably even more. And therefore, I doubt that they will change anything fundamental on this engine within the 997TT lifecycle. There is no reason for it.
They will come up with something new with the successor of the 997 line, but that is still many years away.
I also heard that Porsche is - on purpose - not going the horsepower route anymore. They are investing quite some research in making future models lighter instead of stronger. However, I do not expect that power will decrease...
Anyway, the expected line up of 997 TT models will not yield good resale values for the base model. I second RC's opinion that for the first 18 months, the base TT will be high in demand and in limited availability. So prices will be stable.
But after the arrival of the PK or S model, most people will go for that, like for the 996 TTS and the Cayenne Turbo S. In that price segment people will (more or less happily) pay the extra 12K, disregarding whether it really brings more performance. (Did we ever get official test results for the 996 TTS/X50?)
Therefore the base TT will get some resale hit sooner or later. That is the reason why I will hold my breath for the current TT excitement and just wait what is going to happen next year. I would not get a TT this year anyway. The list at my dealership is much longer than the current allocation for 2006.
Thus, the reason to get 480BHP now and then 510-525BHP later is not a technical but just a strategic descision, nothing else. The current engine is capable of 525BHP and probably even more. And therefore, I doubt that they will change anything fundamental on this engine within the 997TT lifecycle. There is no reason for it.
They will come up with something new with the successor of the 997 line, but that is still many years away.
I also heard that Porsche is - on purpose - not going the horsepower route anymore. They are investing quite some research in making future models lighter instead of stronger. However, I do not expect that power will decrease...
Anyway, the expected line up of 997 TT models will not yield good resale values for the base model. I second RC's opinion that for the first 18 months, the base TT will be high in demand and in limited availability. So prices will be stable.
But after the arrival of the PK or S model, most people will go for that, like for the 996 TTS and the Cayenne Turbo S. In that price segment people will (more or less happily) pay the extra 12K, disregarding whether it really brings more performance. (Did we ever get official test results for the 996 TTS/X50?)
Therefore the base TT will get some resale hit sooner or later. That is the reason why I will hold my breath for the current TT excitement and just wait what is going to happen next year. I would not get a TT this year anyway. The list at my dealership is much longer than the current allocation for 2006.
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
I agree with the weight factor for future developpement. The 997 TT or TTS will have more than enough power and torque. But reduce the weight by 10-15% and performance will scream.
Actually Porsche should start reducing weight with the turbo S to get people interested and justify the high premium the S will fetch.
Actually Porsche should start reducing weight with the turbo S to get people interested and justify the high premium the S will fetch.
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Still I doubt hat the S model will get more power than the PK. That would mean Porsche supports 3 different engines for a model with such limited production numbers. This would only make sense if they S model comes quite late in the production lifecycle.
Regarding the GT2, there were more and more rumors here on the board, that there will be no GT2. The 996 GT2 seemed to be unloved anyway. Someone mentioned that this might make this model especially sought after in the future. Therefore, maybe we will get some 997 GT1 instead.
Regarding the reduced weight, I cannot see how they should manage to lower weight with the current "normal" 997 models. Weight reduction will need more in-depth advances for future models where you have more choices to make changes.
Sure, for GT* models, they can reduce weight by changing the doors, the bonnet, throwing out the nav, rear seats, isolation etc. But the TT/TTS are their grand tourer models with all frills. There is no chance that they will allow more rattle or luxury in that line. Take a look on the typical 996 TTS specs. Many customers order these cars with almost everything you can put in a 911. These customers do probably not want to have a lighter car with plastic body parts and noisy interior.
So it is up to Porsche to identify how they can change future model lines beyond the current 997 by introducing new materials without compromising the legendary practical usability of their cars.
Regarding the GT2, there were more and more rumors here on the board, that there will be no GT2. The 996 GT2 seemed to be unloved anyway. Someone mentioned that this might make this model especially sought after in the future. Therefore, maybe we will get some 997 GT1 instead.
Regarding the reduced weight, I cannot see how they should manage to lower weight with the current "normal" 997 models. Weight reduction will need more in-depth advances for future models where you have more choices to make changes.
Sure, for GT* models, they can reduce weight by changing the doors, the bonnet, throwing out the nav, rear seats, isolation etc. But the TT/TTS are their grand tourer models with all frills. There is no chance that they will allow more rattle or luxury in that line. Take a look on the typical 996 TTS specs. Many customers order these cars with almost everything you can put in a 911. These customers do probably not want to have a lighter car with plastic body parts and noisy interior.
So it is up to Porsche to identify how they can change future model lines beyond the current 997 by introducing new materials without compromising the legendary practical usability of their cars.
Feb 8, 2006 7:20:56 PM
- Grant
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Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
bostonmini said:
Ok, any hype/speculation on this? you guys think this one will get the 3.8 liter? hard to imagine they will allow the carrera S a numerically bigger engine...
Just for historical prespective, the 964 (non-turbo) had a 3.6L motor beginning in 1989, but the Turbo (965) used a 3.3L motor until 1994...
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
IMO, the 997 Turbo S should be : no more than $150K, REAR wheel drive , with an adjustable coil over suspension set up and carbon ceramic brakes, PDK, highest power Porsche will ever spec for the 997 iteration ,full four seater and same options / trim as a base Turbo.
The 996 GT2 never sold well because track junkies preferred the sound/handling / throttle tractabilty of the GT3 models and potential buyers of this $200K model didn't see the value ( hence the immediate $50K depreciation when a new one was driven off the dealer lot. )
The 996 GT2 never sold well because track junkies preferred the sound/handling / throttle tractabilty of the GT3 models and potential buyers of this $200K model didn't see the value ( hence the immediate $50K depreciation when a new one was driven off the dealer lot. )
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
yah said:
Still I doubt hat the S model will get more power than the PK. That would mean Porsche supports 3 different engines for a model with such limited production numbers. This would only make sense if they S model comes quite late in the production lifecycle.
Regarding the GT2, there were more and more rumors here on the board, that there will be no GT2. The 996 GT2 seemed to be unloved anyway. Someone mentioned that this might make this model especially sought after in the future. Therefore, maybe we will get some 997 GT1 instead.
Regarding the reduced weight, I cannot see how they should manage to lower weight with the current "normal" 997 models. Weight reduction will need more in-depth advances for future models where you have more choices to make changes.
Sure, for GT* models, they can reduce weight by changing the doors, the bonnet, throwing out the nav, rear seats, isolation etc. But the TT/TTS are their grand tourer models with all frills. There is no chance that they will allow more rattle or luxury in that line. Take a look on the typical 996 TTS specs. Many customers order these cars with almost everything you can put in a 911. These customers do probably not want to have a lighter car with plastic body parts and noisy interior.
So it is up to Porsche to identify how they can change future model lines beyond the current 997 by introducing new materials without compromising the legendary practical usability of their cars.
Yah,
I am sure your analysis of the TT/TTS game is on target, obviously we all play our own games of "wishful thinking" and would love to see Porsche diverge from that path. One reason I don't get defensive about all the 911-versus-ZO6 threads has nothing to do with my being an American (I haven't owned an American car since 1998
), I view this ZO6 mantra as healthful pressure on Porsche to put out an ever-competitive product, and I know the 911Turbo from the factory could be ALOT more powerful and faster without major R&D, alteration in production or change in marketing strategy. Porsche obviously has a unique position-being a sports car manufacturer attempting to remain independent competing against larger makers with multiple market niches. I would love to see a TTS with GT2-like weight control but maintaining the 959-derived TT/AWD setup, just an awesome combination of power and stability, so amateurs like me can drive hard and in control in varying weather and road conditions without wrapping the vehicle around a telephone pole. They could add the PK to the baseTT, then save the S for an all-around "S"port model, with PDK, more base boost and higher overboost on the VTG's, tighter suspension, and some additional weight-saving measures (more amalgams, CF, insulation reducion, for example), so "three" turbo's could be offered-that is three models of varying power-to-weight ratios, with the PK and S versions differing only by weight/luxury appointments.
And of course, I would love to see a Porsche in-house "tuning" program for individualized power and performance mods, although I have never heard rumours of this from anyone P-connected.
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
MKW said:
IMO, the 997 Turbo S should be : no more than $150K, REAR wheel drive , with an adjustable coil over suspension set up and carbon ceramic brakes, PDK, highest power Porsche will ever spec for the 997 iteration ,full four seater and same options / trim as a base Turbo.
The 996 GT2 never sold well because track junkies preferred the sound/handling / throttle tractabilty of the GT3 models and potential buyers of this $200K model didn't see the value ( hence the immediate $50K depreciation when a new one was driven off the dealer lot. )
IMO, AWD is a huge positive for 997TT/TTS....makes it my favorite all-weather SUV....and provides another layer of safety, esp if encountering an unexpected slick spot on a mtn road
However, I would definitely like to lose the sunroof, sound insulation and rear seats (fairly worthless; and are rugrats really safe back there anyway in those vestigial seats?). And I'd like to gain a much more charismatic sports exhaust.
I'd bet 997TTS will launch <18mos post-997TT, along w/launch of PDK.....997TTS is too incrementally profitable for P (over 997TT) to wait to launch it when model is near end of its run....even Merc figured out this game by launching new S65 6 mos post-S550 launch....
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
yah said:
As mentioned by RC: there is no reason for Porsche to increase displacement. Neither for more BHP nor more torque. Let's face it, if they wanted to give us 600BHP and 1000NM, they could have done it (with a different engine, other displacement etc). There is probably no one here questioning Porsches engineering skills.
Thus, the reason to get 480BHP now and then 510-525BHP later is not a technical but just a strategic descision, nothing else. The current engine is capable of 525BHP and probably even more. And therefore, I doubt that they will change anything fundamental on this engine within the 997TT lifecycle. There is no reason for it.
They will come up with something new with the successor of the 997 line, but that is still many years away.
I also heard that Porsche is - on purpose - not going the horsepower route anymore. They are investing quite some research in making future models lighter instead of stronger. However, I do not expect that power will decrease...
Anyway, the expected line up of 997 TT models will not yield good resale values for the base model. I second RC's opinion that for the first 18 months, the base TT will be high in demand and in limited availability. So prices will be stable.
But after the arrival of the PK or S model, most people will go for that, like for the 996 TTS and the Cayenne Turbo S. In that price segment people will (more or less happily) pay the extra 12K, disregarding whether it really brings more performance. (Did we ever get official test results for the 996 TTS/X50?)
Therefore the base TT will get some resale hit sooner or later. That is the reason why I will hold my breath for the current TT excitement and just wait what is going to happen next year. I would not get a TT this year anyway. The list at my dealership is much longer than the current allocation for 2006.
I agree with everything you said. The main reason why I'm getting a 997 Turbo NOW is simple: I need a car NOW because of my business and I have to keep it for five years. So I don't care too much about resale value. Of course I'm disappointed that I can't have the powerkit or PDK in my car, no doubt. But hopefully the powerkit will be retrofittable and the PDK, well...bad luck.
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
The 996 GT2 had dismal sales, but then so has the 993/996 Targa and they are reportedly bringing THAT, back, if you can believe it, so who knows about a 997 GT2 . ? Funny how Porsche doesn't seem to do anything that doesn't involve money in the bank, yet versions like these exist. 
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
MKW said:
The 996 GT2 had dismal sales, but then so has the 993/996 Targa and they are reportedly bringing THAT, back, if you can believe it, so who knows about a 997 GT2 . ? Funny how Porsche doesn't seem to do anything that doesn't involve money in the bank, yet versions like these exist.
The only reason that there will be a 997 Targa again seems to be the fact, that (like with that stupid chrono sport watch on the dashboard) somebody "high up" in the Porsche hierarchy wanted to have a Targa again. Period. I know this is not a clever thing to do but since Porsche can afford it...
The GT2 is another story: look at the 996 GT2. Now look at the technical details and then tell me how many parts are different compared to the 996 Turbo and 996 GT3. I'd say that Porsche built the GT2 with at least 90% of the parts from the 996 Turbo and 996 GT3. Talking of "synergy" effects from other models. If Porsche thinks there is a market for a couple of hundreds of 997 GT2, I'm pretty sure they're going to build one.But looking at the current 997 Turbo and considering all the potential which lies in this car, I can picture another interesting product: a 997 Turbo RS. 70 kg less weight compared to standard Turbo (not difficult: lighter seats, less isolation material, deleting the rear seats, etc.), PCCB as a standard option (included in weight reduction figure), 540 HP, a very aggressive PDK setup, etc. Now this car would rock, even with 4WD. And it would allow to cash in more money on almost the same product without the need of major modifications.
So basically, there is the 997 Turbo, there will be a 997 Turbo Powerkit with maybe 510 HP, a 997 Turbo S with aprox. 520 HP and a 997 Turbo RS would be the perfect top model with 20 HP more, 70 kg less weight than the Turbo S and a sport chassis with LSD. Such a car should be able to hit Carrera GT performance. Not bad for half the money.
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
RC said:
But looking at the current 997 Turbo and considering all the potential which lies in this car, I can picture another interesting product: a 997 Turbo RS. 70 kg less weight compared to standard Turbo (not difficult: lighter seats, less isolation material, deleting the rear seats, etc.), PCCB as a standard option (included in weight reduction figure), 540 HP, a very aggressive PDK setup, etc. Now this car would rock, even with 4WD. And it would allow to cash in more money on almost the same product without the need of major modifications.
Sounds good- the only reason I stated the desire for a rwd version of a Turbo S or Turbo RS ( esp for here in sunny California ) is to lose another 150-200 lbs of mass . If the 996 GT2 and Carrera GT ( and many of the current 500-650 hp sports cars and sedans on the market ) can somehow put the power to the ground with only two driven wheels , why couldn't a four seat super Turbo ?
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
MKW said:Quote:
RC said:
But looking at the current 997 Turbo and considering all the potential which lies in this car, I can picture another interesting product: a 997 Turbo RS. 70 kg less weight compared to standard Turbo (not difficult: lighter seats, less isolation material, deleting the rear seats, etc.), PCCB as a standard option (included in weight reduction figure), 540 HP, a very aggressive PDK setup, etc. Now this car would rock, even with 4WD. And it would allow to cash in more money on almost the same product without the need of major modifications.
Sounds good- the only reason I stated the desire for a rwd version of a Turbo S or Turbo RS ( esp for here in sunny California ) is to lose another 150-200 lbs of mass . If the 996 GT2 and Carrera GT ( and many of the current 500-650 hp sports cars and sedans on the market ) can somehow put the power to the ground with only two driven wheels , why couldn't a four seat super Turbo ?
I'd certainly get the 997TTS-RS that RC describes
Even though "sunny" CA prob has world's best weather, we have 2-3 mos of intermittently rainy weather in winter and damp/foggy conditions up in mtns, even early on a summer AM when roads are empty for fun wkend drives....
I'd argue that, esp for those 60+d/yr of poss inclement road conds, even in CA, (and for the other some 300d/yr) safest and fastest car on planet is Turbo w/AWD and PSM.....esp when considering both active and passive safety.
If I want safest, fastest car to carry 4 people on those rare dry days in CA, I'll opt for an S65.
And if I need to carry 4 people on a rainy day, I'd simply use two separate 997TT's to achieve maximum safety....or very gingerly pilot the S65 if I didn't have a second 997TT or capable second driver....
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
Crash said:
Bad weather only during the winter? I froze my butt off in SF three years agoIt was late July and the temperature was about 40* F!
Also, it was windy as hell at the Golden gate.
There can be up to a 50 degree difference in daytime temps between SF /Golden Gate weather and just going 20 miles east or south during many summer days here .
We call these " microclimates ".
Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
MKW said:Quote:
RC said:
But looking at the current 997 Turbo and considering all the potential which lies in this car, I can picture another interesting product: a 997 Turbo RS. 70 kg less weight compared to standard Turbo (not difficult: lighter seats, less isolation material, deleting the rear seats, etc.), PCCB as a standard option (included in weight reduction figure), 540 HP, a very aggressive PDK setup, etc. Now this car would rock, even with 4WD. And it would allow to cash in more money on almost the same product without the need of major modifications.
Sounds good- the only reason I stated the desire for a rwd version of a Turbo S or Turbo RS ( esp for here in sunny California ) is to lose another 150-200 lbs of mass . If the 996 GT2 and Carrera GT ( and many of the current 500-650 hp sports cars and sedans on the market ) can somehow put the power to the ground with only two driven wheels , why couldn't a four seat super Turbo ?
It is HARD to drive the GT2, but a TT-VTG/AWD with LSD, PDK/PDCS, PCCB, CF monococque chassis, deleted rear seats, and some insulation loss could still get its weight down to 3,000-3,200lb, and with about 550peakHP and 700Nm torque between 2,000-5,000rpm's, this car would be a blast.
Feb 10, 2006 3:43:38 AM
- bostonmini
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Feb 10, 2006 3:48:32 AM
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SciFrog
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Re: next subject 997 TT S!!!
Quote:
SciFrog said:
Probably, but it would eat too much into their profit margin. But we can thank cars such as the Z06 because it will force Porsche to make better cars at the same price point
Hopefully yes. Right now I didn't hear too many enthusastic comments about the Z06 coming from Porsche officials, apparently they don't see the Z06 as a direct threat to the 997 Turbo. Yet. It may change when we have independent test results but no matter what they think about the Z06, it is a bang for the buck, especially in the US. No doubt about it. And hopefully such cars will force Porsche to re-consider their "as much power as necessary" attitude and move more to a "as much power necessary to blow away the competition" attitude.
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