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    Feb 6, 2006 12:45:07 PM

    RCA
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    RC
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    June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    ...in selected countries. First deliveries in the US rumored for end of August.

    Nobody on this planet gets a car before May because in May 2006, the dealer presentation takes place (the event where dealers and salesmen are invited to celebrate and testdrive new cars). The press event should be mid/end of April, maybe in May too.

    So if somebody is hoping for a car in May or even April, no way because Porsche sends cars to dealers late May.

    Feb 6, 2006 12:48:45 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    Same thing that I hear unofficialy few days ago from person who works at P. You can bet that first mag with full info will be AMS! Maybe even next issue(in any case before Geneva)...

    Feb 6, 2006 1:16:36 PM

    Super DariusM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    Right..

    also my dealer saturday tell me no cars before June..

    ciaociao

    Feb 6, 2006 2:17:44 PM

    Herb293
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    Loc: London, UK
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    Reply to: Super DariusM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    Heard from my dealer yesterday that 18 cars for Japan will be June production, delivery in August. 1 or 2 cars may come earlier for promotional purposes.

    August cars will all be LHD with RHD models delivered up to 3 mos later.

    Feb 6, 2006 8:50:23 PM

    Joost
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    Reply to: Herb293

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    Do you know anything about the Netherlands?
    -Joost-

    Feb 6, 2006 10:38:16 PM

    Trundle_GT3
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    Reply to: Joost

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    Dealer presentation is May 18...in Spain

    Feb 7, 2006 12:38:02 AM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    Same thing that I hear unofficialy few days ago from person who works at P. You can bet that first mag with full info will be AMS! Maybe even next issue(in any case before Geneva)...



    Your right. Van Saurma gets what he wants. Look for a Ring time in the high 7:40's. The cars he receives will be prep for record breaking times. Porsche and Van Saurma are a joined at the hip.

    Feb 7, 2006 8:45:23 AM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    But Nick, von Saurma is writing for Sport Auto! Not for Auto,Motor und Sport! Yes, both mags are owned by the same company but, they are NOT similar...
    BTW, 7:40min with semi-slicks around Ring would be very nice for 997 turbo!

    Feb 7, 2006 10:15:49 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    Loc: Beirut , Lebanon
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    true ,the real lucky ones will be delivered in end of may..

    Feb 7, 2006 12:13:23 PM

    RCA
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    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and...

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    But Nick, von Saurma is writing for Sport Auto! Not for Auto,Motor und Sport! Yes, both mags are owned by the same company but, they are NOT similar...
    BTW, 7:40min with semi-slicks around Ring would be very nice for 997 turbo!



    7:40 WITHOUT semi-slicks would be very nice.

    Feb 7, 2006 12:53:13 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    nberry said:The cars he receives will be prep for record breaking times.



    Nick, what you are implying is not funny anymore. The only way Saurma will use a prepped car is if they fool him into thinkin its standard, but he is too wise and experienced for that and does all kinds of tests to make sure the Supertest cars are standard. Do you have any proof of what that serious accusation?

    Feb 7, 2006 1:47:38 PM

    W8MM
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Do you have any proof of what that serious accusation?



    Of course he doesn't.

    He doesn't require proof. The seriousness of the accusation is all that matters to him!

    Feb 7, 2006 4:29:50 PM

    mrmckay
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    mrmckay
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:The cars he receives will be prep for record breaking times.



    Do you have any proof of what that serious accusation?



    He's just trying to stir things up which is the same thing he has been doing for years. That's what happens when you drink too much Ferrari cool-aid.

    Feb 7, 2006 4:37:58 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Of course he doesn't.

    He doesn't require proof. The seriousness of the accusation is all that matters to him!



    Nick is only envious, he remembers me of my neighbor who came up to me once when I was washing my former 996 Turbo. He seriously asked me why I need such a car, he tried to convince me that it is consuming too much fuel, it makes too much noise and it doesn't serve any real purpose.
    Since she was my neighbor, I didn't tell her what was on my mind but since Nick is an "old" friend, all I can say to him, is:

    Feb 7, 2006 4:54:02 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Your neighbor was right. However , I am not envious at all. I was in the Porsche dealership the other day and was asked by two salespersons whether I wanted one. When I inquired about the wait list they said they had a number of names on the list "but you know how that goes. Several will drop out.For an example, you see that new Cayman there? We had 50 names for the Cayman on our list but we haven't been able to sell that one."

    My reading was I could have one in fairly short order.

    Carlos, of course I dont have proof except to say Van Saurma times seemed to be faster in Porsche's and it is acknowledged he has an "in" with Porsche. My conclusion regarding the fairness of the test are predicated on the same logic you and many others used in questioning the credibility of the Z06 run.

    Feb 7, 2006 5:11:04 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    My conclusion regarding the fairness of the test are predicated on the same logic you and many others used in questioning the credibility of the Z06 run.



    Nick, the problem here is: Sport Auto hasn't done a Z06 review yet. The only thing I and others are doubting are those magazine number claims which are actually based on factory claims and unconfirmed (by an independent source) test figures.

    In my past 41 years, I learned that nothing in life comes for free, not even death. So the question is: how did GM manage to put a car like the Z06 on the market at such an attractive price tag with that kind of performance? Well, the answer isn't that easy. Where is the catch? Durability? Reliability? Crash Safety? Limited Availability/Production Numbers (homologation)? Sorry Nick but as long as I don't see some trustable test figures, I doubt that GM found the holy grail.

    Feb 7, 2006 5:22:53 PM

    amjf088
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Yeah, wasn't Magnusson's Z06 lap done with a flying start?

    I think RC et.al have a good point: It is only useful comparing lap times done under (somewhat) similar circumstances and the Sport Auto collection is the best resource for that available. Not perfect, but better than making comparisons where even more variables are different.

    It's not really a matter of distrusting the Z06 time, but more a matter of not being able to make a direct comparison.

    All the unfounded shots at Van Saurma will not change that.

    Have you ever really been involved in any competitive pursuit Nick? I wonder. Do you really think V-S will "back-off" slightly on a go-for-broke N-ring lap in a Gallardo or something just to let Porsche "win"? I suppose it is possible, buy I highly doubt it.

    Feb 7, 2006 5:42:27 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    The Z06 cost and pricing isnt a great mystery.

    The engines were already developed by a outside company. That sell them to anybody for $19K - sinqle quantity retail price. GM to lowers that cost by building them eunder license at a GM factory.

    The other engineering bits like the magnesium engine cradle,
    carbon fiber body parts, the bigger brakes, R/D time, etc.. arent that expensive for a GM engineering team to design, source and test when you consider the cars PR halo effect.

    Keep in mind that a standard Corvette sells for less than a Boxster S in the US, so add 26K more for the Z06 stuff and bingo, you have your price.

    Durability wise, the Z06 engine may last longer than a 996 GT3RS engine, but even at the same life, the GM V8 is cheaper by half to replace than a GT3 motor. Why? Scale of production for GM and Porsche's outrageous Motorsports Group prices.

    Feb 7, 2006 5:46:51 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: amjf088

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    amjf088 said:
    Yeah, wasn't Magnusson's Z06 lap done with a flying start?



    Thats only for starters! then comes the suspension tweeks they did for the run, we still don't know the tires used, then there is the small detail that is was a factory run for publicity and marketing purposes, not an independant magazine standarised test, etc, etc.
    Of course for Nick this is more details and information that what he needs his conclusion will always be the same regardless

    Feb 7, 2006 5:59:58 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Ok Carlos, what proof is there that it was a 'flying" lap?

    Also, Since the car is sold to customers with a ADJUSTABLE suspension and is even delivered to customers with a VIDEO that SHOWS customers HOW to ADJUST the suspension for the track, this "adjusted suspension" cry is a non issue.

    I agree that their PR was terrible, they obviously had their head up their asses about that for the european
    press audience.

    But what do you have other than INNUENDO and NICK like accusations that Magnussen is a LIAR? Because thats what you are calling him.

    If you are going to persist in calling him a liar, at least show us your facts and dont hide behind specious innuendo of "oh its GM and they are big and everybody knows it and blah blah- Von Saurma couldnt get a standard engine vette near what they claimed lap time for the Ring etc..."

    Enlighten us please with something other than suppositions guesses and speculation.

    Feb 7, 2006 6:08:34 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Ok Carlos, what proof is there that it was a 'flying" lap?

    Also, Since the car is sold to customers with a ADJUSTABLE suspension and is even delivered to customers with a VIDEO that SHOWS customers HOW to ADJUST the suspension for the track, this "adjusted suspension" cry is a non issue.

    I agree that their PR was terrible, they obviously had their head up their asses about that for the european
    press audience.

    But what do you have other than INNUENDO and NICK like accusations that Magnussen is a LIAR? Because thats what you are calling him.

    If you are going to persist in calling him a liar, at least show us your facts and dont hide behind specious innuendo of "oh its GM and they are big and everybody knows it and blah blah- Von Saurma couldnt get a standard engine vette near what they claimed lap time for the Ring etc..."

    Enlighten us please with something other than suppositions guesses and speculation.



    Oh yes I forgot about GM PR reprensentative here
    Here you go:http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post187772

    As to adjustable suspensions, the car must be tested as it comes out from the delaer's lot and sold to customers, having a pitbox crew of GM mechanics tweeking the best suspension adjuments for a flying lap on the ring is considered cheating in ring times... Z06 is not the only car with adjustable suspensions you know

    BTW I'm not callinmg Magnussen a liar, I'm calling GM a liar, Magnussen is just the pilot, hes just given the car to drive as fast as he could in the ring, but last I checked, Magnussen is not responsable for GM's marketing and PR department responsible of the how fiasco.

    Feb 7, 2006 6:17:22 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Im not the GM PR rep.

    So you are saying that GM lied about Magnussen's lap and that he went along with their lie? Where is the proof for that? In a Tibetan cave?

    If you want GM to stop delivering Z06 Corvettes to customers with adjustable suspensions and Video instructions for how to do that you will have to call GM yourself. I suggest you send Von Sauma to English school to watch the easy to follow instructions.

    Here, learn some Danish!

    http://www.janmagnussen.com/home.asp

    Feb 7, 2006 7:57:18 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Im not the GM PR rep.

    So you are saying that GM lied about Magnussen's lap and that he went along with their lie? Where is the proof for that? In a Tibetan cave?



    You know what I mean the lap was 7:42 and Magnussen did it, but they were devious in the way they obtained it. They didn't play by the same rules as other cars yet they want people to compare their lap times. There are little facts released about how it was achieved and the more we learn the more the cat is out of the bag, however GM did not put up the same effort in hidding what the lap time was. They hide how they achieved it but not the lap time, how convenient.


    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Can someone explain to this Yankee (me) what Sport Auto's NBR test procedures are relative to a flying or standing start?



    Standing starts. And full laps also, not a BTG (Bridge to Gantry) lap like others do and then try to compare them to full laps. BTG laps skip the Dottinger Hohe straight (when the ring is open for public you have to come in after every lap, and you come in before the straight and enter the track after the straight).

    Feb 7, 2006 8:04:01 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    The Z06 cost and pricing isnt a great mystery.

    The other engineering bits like the magnesium engine cradle,
    carbon fiber body parts, the bigger brakes, R/D time, etc.. arent that expensive for a GM engineering team to design, source and test when you consider the cars PR halo effect.




    You've come to the same conclusion I did, Jim.

    The Z06 is being sold by GM as a "loss-leader", for the sake of its PR halo effect on standard Corvettes, and maybe on other GM products. GM is currently losing billions/annum anyway, so not making any money on the Z06s is not exactly going to be a remarkable situation.

    What surprises me is that nobody has yet remarked on what the Z06 tells you about how GM thinks of the technical "competence" of the standard Corvette. When they decided to build a real show-case sportscar to try to "compete" with the benchmarks at the Nürburgring, they even had to go so far as - among many other changes - to tool up a completely new frame under the skin of the Corvette to try to achieve that aim, making the Z06 a "silouette" version of the original.

    Not that it matters. It'll stíll fool enough guys who lust after a standard bread-and-butter Corvette 'cos they think it'll help them pick up that Dolly Parton lookalike-wannabe who serves their breakfast at the local IHOP, after whom they lust much more than after a sporting (four-wheeled) ride.

    Feb 7, 2006 8:35:53 PM

    Texas911
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    "was a factory run for publicity and marketing purposes"

    So who drove the recent C4 at the Ring? Rohl? Isn't he a professional driver? You guys are always quoting Porsche times at the Ring but then doubt when its not?

    Feb 7, 2006 8:59:44 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    The current Corvette mechanical and chassis specs,except for the Z06 modifications, were already fixed before Bob Lutz joined GM and vowed to build a "supercar."

    So the Vette engineers only had the ability to modify, not create something new. Corvette and Hummer are the only profitable divisions within GM, except for their car business in China wich is stellar.

    As for the Corvette EVER having the steering feel, chassis precision and braking power of a Porsche. Forget it. The guys who design them are very good at engines, but they live in Michigan and Ohio where there are no mountains,nor
    hi speed curves or 120mph + + highway driving.

    GM actually built a huge test track in the US that copies many parts of the Nurnburgring, but the autobahn and Alpine fast driving culture just isnt here to bring the customer feedback in or Engineers knowledge from daily personal use for product development.

    The Z06 is a good car, for a Corvette. Its easy to modify for track use and more power is cheap to add on. But dont ever expect it to be satisfying as a sophisticated fast road car from Germany, Italy or Britain.

    Feb 7, 2006 9:06:45 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: Texas911

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    "was a factory run for publicity and marketing purposes"

    So who drove the recent C4 at the Ring? Rohl? Isn't he a professional driver? You guys are always quoting Porsche times at the Ring but then doubt when its not?



    Who is quoting Porsche times?

    The times used when "comparing cars" are SportAuto Supertest times...

    Factory times are just that, factory times. Don't mix'em up.

    Feb 7, 2006 9:17:30 PM

    brunner
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A THREAD THAT'S NOT ABOUT THE Z06?

    Ffs...

    Feb 7, 2006 9:25:11 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    Carlos, I am promoting you from humble Rennteam moderator to NGI - Nurburgring Grand Inquistor!

    Somwhere on this site or linked to it, a Nurburgring Lap Time Technique FAQ would be helpful.

    Feb 7, 2006 10:21:13 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: June 2006...First Deliveries to Customers in Germany and

    as long as you don't change my name to "Torquemada from Spain" too
     
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