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Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Quote:
mbr129 said:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/FREE/60123008/1065
Discuss.
Highly interesting product in my opinion and a direct competitor for the Cayman S.
But how could we discuss it if nobody has driven one yet?!
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Well I hope it is a lot better than the last M Coupe. It certainly isn't as ugly, my friends called my 3.2 litre car the "ugly duckling". The overall quality was not very good, I still have some bits of interior trim that fell off.
I sold it after 1,200 miles and the buyer sold it again within a month.
I sold it after 1,200 miles and the buyer sold it again within a month.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Well at least these latest pics make it look better than the first ones.....but it's still pretty fugly IMO. As for performance numbers I'll wait till the first reviews before passing judgement.
I'm sure it will be fun in a straight line and probably end up a tick or two faster there....or maybe just equal, but I still think handling won't be in the same league as the Cayman.....pretty much the same as it has always been with M's vs. Porsche.
The price point is a bit of a mystery.....the M costing the same as a Cayman? Usually one of the advantages of going with a BMW over a Porsche is the large price difference between the two. Doesn't look like that here.
Just like the M version Z3 coupe was a great car.....it just never sold as it wasn't aesthetically pleasing to most.....I predict the same here.
I'm sure it will be fun in a straight line and probably end up a tick or two faster there....or maybe just equal, but I still think handling won't be in the same league as the Cayman.....pretty much the same as it has always been with M's vs. Porsche.
The price point is a bit of a mystery.....the M costing the same as a Cayman? Usually one of the advantages of going with a BMW over a Porsche is the large price difference between the two. Doesn't look like that here.
Just like the M version Z3 coupe was a great car.....it just never sold as it wasn't aesthetically pleasing to most.....I predict the same here.
Sad to see that what could of been something exiting became repelling....
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
While I don't generally like the BMW M-Coupe, I hope the market punishes Porsche for deliberately crippling the Cayman with an underpowered engine and lack of a limited-slip differential that Rohl says the Cayman really needs. This is one case where outside competition might be needed to give Porsche a good kick in the butt. When Porsche gives the Cayman chasis the more powerful engine that it can handle and a LSD, I'll be the first in line to buy one. Is anyone from Porsche listening?
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Quote:
wushuhsu said:
While I don't generally like the BMW M-Coupe, I hope the market punishes Porsche for deliberately crippling the Cayman with an underpowered engine and lack of a limited-slip differential that Rohl says the Cayman really needs. This is one case where outside competition might be needed to give Porsche a good kick in the butt. When Porsche gives the Cayman chasis the more powerful engine that it can handle and a LSD, I'll be the first in line to buy one. Is anyone from Porsche listening?
Unfortunately I doubt it. In 2001 BMW had 333hp in the M3 and what happens 4 years later with the 997? Even worse the 997S only has 22 more HP. Now something like 400hp in the Z4 may wake them up.
Jan 26, 2006 9:40:29 AM
- SoCalHoosier
- Veteran
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- Loc: California , United States
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- Registered on: Jun 13, 2003
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Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
"Is arrogance or complacency that stops Porsche worrying about such competition?"
I suspect that Porsche worry about the competition all the time but they are clever enough to know that horsepower numbers are not actually what it is all about.
And BTW the next M-Coupe will not have 400 bhp anyway, it will have the six cylinder engine from the current e46 M3 with about 330 bhp.
Yesterday I drove my M3 instead of my Cayman and I really don't care that the M3 has an extra 40 bhp and accelerates a little quicker - the Cayman is a far superior car to drive.
The best BMW M car I ever had (and I have had many) was an e30 M3 with about 195 bhp.
I suspect that Porsche worry about the competition all the time but they are clever enough to know that horsepower numbers are not actually what it is all about.
And BTW the next M-Coupe will not have 400 bhp anyway, it will have the six cylinder engine from the current e46 M3 with about 330 bhp.
Yesterday I drove my M3 instead of my Cayman and I really don't care that the M3 has an extra 40 bhp and accelerates a little quicker - the Cayman is a far superior car to drive.
The best BMW M car I ever had (and I have had many) was an e30 M3 with about 195 bhp.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Interview with Walter Rohrl published in The Age October 5, 2005:
"What do you think will be the biggest competition for the Cayman?"
"The new Audi TT, for sure, and maybe the Z4 coup, if they build it. Then the current 350Z, but these cars are really on another level. The 350Z is a nice car, but as soon as you have driven the Cayman S it is a different car. The Cayman S is like the perfect solution to a sports car."
"What do you think will be the biggest competition for the Cayman?"
"The new Audi TT, for sure, and maybe the Z4 coup, if they build it. Then the current 350Z, but these cars are really on another level. The 350Z is a nice car, but as soon as you have driven the Cayman S it is a different car. The Cayman S is like the perfect solution to a sports car."
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
The great thing about Porsche's in general is the ability to use the power you've more of the time. I had TVR Tamora (350BHP and 1100KGs) , it did 0-100 in about 9 seconds, but I was quicker in the 996 in real on road driving, because I could use the available power more of the time and got better feed back from the car, which gave me confidence to push.
Yet another thread that ends up dissing the cayman in some way(under powered, held back, cost to much blah, blah, blah, even though it started as a BMW related thread
Yet another thread that ends up dissing the cayman in some way(under powered, held back, cost to much blah, blah, blah, even though it started as a BMW related thread
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Hmm! I am M3 and Boxster S(987) owner and my next car will be 997S(X51,PCCB,-20mm/LSD) in April 2006. As a M3 replacment maybe Z4M Roadster will be interesting? I will make my opinion after test drive... But, I tried Cayman S and find it interesting enough for first time Porsche buyers. IMO, it is not better enough then Boxster S! I like Cayman S but, I will never own one... Part of the problem is also price range-Z4M Roadster with full options cost in Germany 65000 Euro and Cayman S with same(more or less) options cost 75000 Euro !!
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
As it stands now, the Z4M looks like a fantastic car. If it gets the V8 from the new M3 that's soon to be released... 
The Cayman is a great car and Porsche did an unbelievable job marketing it. I'm sure it will sell well. However, given the choice and considering the power, M-differential and lower price with options, I'd probably go for the Z4M.
The Cayman is a great car and Porsche did an unbelievable job marketing it. I'm sure it will sell well. However, given the choice and considering the power, M-differential and lower price with options, I'd probably go for the Z4M.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Quote:
DamienL said:
As it stands now, the Z4M looks like a fantastic car. If it gets the V8 from the new M3 that's soon to be released...
No, the Z4M gets I-6 from current M3 (343hp) and then it will get the new V8 from the E90 M3 only after a facelift in 2-3 years.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
From the BMW web site:
"The straight six-cylinder engine. 343 brake horsepower, 0 to 100 km/h in 5 seconds - the Z4 M is a coupé with racing in its genes."
There is no V8 engine with 400 or more bhp in the Z4 M-Coupé!
BTW I am not sure where the "racing in its genes" claim for the engine comes from. Maybe from it's great grandfather.
"The straight six-cylinder engine. 343 brake horsepower, 0 to 100 km/h in 5 seconds - the Z4 M is a coupé with racing in its genes."
There is no V8 engine with 400 or more bhp in the Z4 M-Coupé!
BTW I am not sure where the "racing in its genes" claim for the engine comes from. Maybe from it's great grandfather.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Ken, BMW is pioneer of high reving engines. All other manufactures(Audi,Mercedes etc.) are just copying the concept. High output M engines are on the market for more then 10 years. They started with M3(e36) with 286hp etc. I own M3(e46) with 343hp and Boxster S(987). I like Boxster more and it is IMO more fun but, M3 is faster on the straight line both then Cayman S and Boxster S. Of course things are different around corners... Also regarding "racing in its genes" BMW marketing was refering to the F1 experience, IMO.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Branimir,
"BMW is pioneer of high reving engines"
Thank you for the information - I have owned 23 BMWs starting with an e21 323i in 1982 and including five M cars.
I still have four BMWs including the e46 M3. If you want to know anorak facts like the diameter of the M3's front stabilizer bar than I am your man (26mm actually).
"All other manufactures(Audi,Mercedes etc.) are just copying the concept"
Good job you didn't mention Honda, they might claim to have started the concept that BMW are copying.
"regarding "racing in its genes" BMW marketing was
referring to the F1 experience"
If so their claim is pretty tenuous to say the least as there is virtually nothing in the current M3 (S54) engine with its cast-iron block that is even remotely derived from the BMW F1 effort.
"I like Boxster more and it is IMO more fun but, M3 is faster on the straight line both then Cayman S and Boxster S"
Quite. I have never driven a Boxster so have no comment to make but the simple fact is that going faster in a straight line is pretty boring after you have done it a few times. I recall that when I had my Z3M Coupe that I used to try to get stopped at some local traffic lights in "pole position" so that I could then accelerate to 140 mph and stop before the next set of traffic lights. That was about as enjoyable as it got - how inane in retrospect!
In contrast the Cayman is a joy to drive at 30 mph or 50 mph on twisty roads. Every day on the way to the office I go through a set of bends at over 100 mph (I have a ticket for 109 mph to prove it). Typically in the M3 I will be doing 110-115 and in the Cayman 105-110 - but which is more enjoyable? There is no doubt about it, the M3 seems leaden, just a powerful engine, whereas the Cayman is light and delicate, full of feel - you know exactly what is happening all the time. I am sure the Boxster is very similar but I have never wanted a rag-top.
"BMW is pioneer of high reving engines"
Thank you for the information - I have owned 23 BMWs starting with an e21 323i in 1982 and including five M cars.
I still have four BMWs including the e46 M3. If you want to know anorak facts like the diameter of the M3's front stabilizer bar than I am your man (26mm actually).
"All other manufactures(Audi,Mercedes etc.) are just copying the concept"
Good job you didn't mention Honda, they might claim to have started the concept that BMW are copying.
"regarding "racing in its genes" BMW marketing was
referring to the F1 experience"
If so their claim is pretty tenuous to say the least as there is virtually nothing in the current M3 (S54) engine with its cast-iron block that is even remotely derived from the BMW F1 effort.
"I like Boxster more and it is IMO more fun but, M3 is faster on the straight line both then Cayman S and Boxster S"
Quite. I have never driven a Boxster so have no comment to make but the simple fact is that going faster in a straight line is pretty boring after you have done it a few times. I recall that when I had my Z3M Coupe that I used to try to get stopped at some local traffic lights in "pole position" so that I could then accelerate to 140 mph and stop before the next set of traffic lights. That was about as enjoyable as it got - how inane in retrospect!
In contrast the Cayman is a joy to drive at 30 mph or 50 mph on twisty roads. Every day on the way to the office I go through a set of bends at over 100 mph (I have a ticket for 109 mph to prove it). Typically in the M3 I will be doing 110-115 and in the Cayman 105-110 - but which is more enjoyable? There is no doubt about it, the M3 seems leaden, just a powerful engine, whereas the Cayman is light and delicate, full of feel - you know exactly what is happening all the time. I am sure the Boxster is very similar but I have never wanted a rag-top.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
If I recall correctly the current M3 is 4.8 0 to 60, same as the Cayman S. My convertible M3 is a touch slower. M3 is great, but it is an incredible sports sedan rather than a sports car. That was clear to me when I got back into my M3 after driving the Cayman S. As great as the M3 is, it felt like an SUV by comparison. Same feeling after driving the 987S.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Ken, I agree with you on 95% of things that you said! Honda?? Well, their engines are still dead in mid revs after more then 20 years of development; IMO! M3(e46) is having decent "amount of meat" in mid range, at least.
I tried Cayman S and IMO it is very close to my Boxster S. Cayman's engine has more torque in mid revs and is little more eager to rev. On the road(steering feel, brakes etc.) they are IMO more or less-same... And I agree with you that Cayman S(and Boxster S, I will add) is more fun to drive then M3! Personally, I hate metallic sound that M3 is making when you rev it hard(around 7800-8000rpm)! Cayman S engine is powerfull, with nice Porsche boxer sound but, smooth! Top combo, IMO.
I tried Cayman S and IMO it is very close to my Boxster S. Cayman's engine has more torque in mid revs and is little more eager to rev. On the road(steering feel, brakes etc.) they are IMO more or less-same... And I agree with you that Cayman S(and Boxster S, I will add) is more fun to drive then M3! Personally, I hate metallic sound that M3 is making when you rev it hard(around 7800-8000rpm)! Cayman S engine is powerfull, with nice Porsche boxer sound but, smooth! Top combo, IMO.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Branimir,
"Ken, I agree with you on 95% of things that you said! Honda?? Well, their engines are still dead in mid revs after more then 20 years of development; IMO! M3(e46) is having decent "amount of meat" in mid range, at least."
Ok, I will grant you that. I did think about buying an S2000 (despite the ragtop!) but after I had driven a demo car for a few hours I decided on a 997 instead. Not a very pleasant experience IMHO.
I agree also on the lack of musicality of the M3 engine's "soundtrack". And the nasty flatulent rasp from the exhaust has my neighbours asking if there is something wrong with my car.
"Ken, I agree with you on 95% of things that you said! Honda?? Well, their engines are still dead in mid revs after more then 20 years of development; IMO! M3(e46) is having decent "amount of meat" in mid range, at least."
Ok, I will grant you that. I did think about buying an S2000 (despite the ragtop!) but after I had driven a demo car for a few hours I decided on a 997 instead. Not a very pleasant experience IMHO.
I agree also on the lack of musicality of the M3 engine's "soundtrack". And the nasty flatulent rasp from the exhaust has my neighbours asking if there is something wrong with my car.
Re: Autoweek on new M-Coupe
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
DamienL said:
As it stands now, the Z4M looks like a fantastic car. If it gets the V8 from the new M3 that's soon to be released...
No, the Z4M gets I-6 from current M3 (343hp) and then it will get the new V8 from the E90 M3 only after a facelift in 2-3 years.
Yes I know. That's why I wrote ' if it gets the V8,' since the official specs have already been released. I should have wrote 'eventually' to avoid confusion.
Hopefully the prospect of a V8 Z4M will get Porsche thinking harder about a Cayman RS.
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