Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan. - Page1

Nov 19, 2003 3:12:22 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003

Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

I just received my advertiser's copy of the January, 2004, Car and Driver. In it is a three-way test of the thread's titled cars. The Ford GT test car is apparently a developement mule.

"The Megastars - At last we find out if the highly touted Ford GT can go toe-to-toe with a fabled Ferrari and a killer Porsche." - by Larry Webster

They pick #1 Ford GT, #2 Ferrari CS, and #3 Porsche GT3

11.6@128

12.4@115

12.3@114

Top speed not tested since Ford advised not exceeding 170 MPH due to incomplete high-speed developement. -

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Nov 19, 2003 3:20:18 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Very impressive!!!!!

If the production models performs like this they have a sure winner.

0-200km/h: 11.1-11.3sec (given the 1/4 mile time and speed)

It has true Supercar performance.

The Carrera GT better get some really good test numbers soon to justify its price.

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Nov 19, 2003 3:52:19 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

From the numbers, looks like GT3 should've been #2, not #3. Maybe there was some subjective preference for the CS...

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Nov 19, 2003 4:10:29 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Youza!

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Nov 19, 2003 4:49:15 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: CF

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Quote:
Very impressive!!!!!

If the production models performs like this they have a sure winner.

0-200km/h: 11.1-11.3sec (given the 1/4 mile time and speed)

It has true Supercar performance.

The Carrera GT better get some really good test numbers soon to justify its price.

...and again a quite disappointing result for the Challenge Stradale. Ferrari really should react soon.

regards
sr

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Nov 19, 2003 6:50:58 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Quote:
From the numbers, looks like GT3 should've been #2, not #3. Maybe there was some subjective preference for the CS...

Here's some more prose from the story to that effect:

"The Ferrari costs almost twice what the Porsche does and isn't quicker, so what's the GT3 doing in third place? As good as it was, those unsupportive seats cost it some points, as did the balky shifter. In addition, it came down to the cachet of the two others. If ever a 911 could feel plain, it does in the company of the Stradale and Ford GT."

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Nov 20, 2003 2:34:05 AM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

"and again a quite disappointing result for the Challenge Stradale"

As one with a CS on order, I'm actually pleased with the CS performance. Yes, the 360CS and GT3 look fairly evenly matched on paper - who knows what happens on the track? I prefer the CS to the GT3 for a variety of reasons, and these types of numbers are only one factor to me. I suspect you could mod a far cheaper car up to GT3/CS specs and save lots of $$, if all you want is straight line speed.

I'm a former RS America owner, really like the GT3, and am glad Porsche made it - wish they had brought the GT3 RS to the US. What astonishes me about the comparo is the Ford's performance, head and shoulders above the other two.

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Nov 20, 2003 3:46:53 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

WCH - In case you missed it, the first line shows lap times at Gingerman road race track (GT3 slightly faster than CS)

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Nov 20, 2003 5:45:12 PM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

"the first line shows lap times at Gingerman road race track (GT3 slightly faster than CS)"

Looks like they're pretty evenly matched on track, too - at least on this type of track, maybe everywhere. If it's anything at all like my old RS America, I'll bet the GT3 is relatively bulletproof. Very nice car.

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Nov 20, 2003 7:02:38 PM

baron: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 74, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

The Ford GT seems to have much more power than 500HP. That is performance on par with the Carrera GT with 600HP+. Is it possible that Ford bumped up the boost on this test car to impress us?

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Nov 20, 2003 8:30:26 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: baron

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Quote:
The Ford GT seems to have much more power than 500HP. That is performance on par with the Carrera GT with 600HP+. Is it possible that Ford bumped up the boost on this test car to impress us?

I also assume a much higher output of the Ford GT than the official 500 hp. The numbers are far too impressive. That smells like the first tests of the SL55, where DC showed up with 550 hp and more, whereas the standard car should have 476 hp... (not a very respectable trait BTW)

@WCH: No matter which way you look at it, the CS is disappointing: if you take money into account, the CS is a major letdown, as you get cars like the GT3 that are at least as quick on a straight line (German magazines tell you it's quicker), for far less money.
If you're talking about track times, all current tests show, that these other cars can at least match the CS track performance. Moreover I really doubt, that the CS will be much quicker on the track as a GT3 or GT3RS (if ever...)

Seems to me that Ferrari has made a major mistake: in earlier times they were widely known for their optimistic performance numbers. That changed with 355, 360 and 575. Seems to me, that they've now fallen back into their old policy. But if you look at it objectively: how should a car, with only a mere 25 hp more than the standard model and a weight not far away, be 2.5 sec quicker from 0 to 200 (16.4 to 13.9)?

regards
sr

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Nov 20, 2003 9:17:03 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

WCH - How do you like your 360 and 575? Cool choices. Do you have/like the F1 tranny? I'm a purist and like the manual, but a family member is considering a 575 and doesn't know which tranny to choose.

Thanks,
Grant
grantg10@aol.com

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Nov 20, 2003 10:31:33 PM

M5er: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 932, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 25, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

I am very sorry, but the Ford GT is absolute rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can't even put a Ferrari and Porsche next to a Ford!!!! I am very sure the driving expreince doesn't even come close to that of a Ferrari or a Porsche. I know because I have driven both!

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Nov 20, 2003 10:39:01 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: M5er

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

But you haven't driven the Ford

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Nov 21, 2003 2:44:24 AM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: Futch

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

rossi: "@WCH: No matter which way you look at it, the CS is disappointing"

Well, as I'm expecting delivery of a Stradale in February, I'm not at all objective! I'm a fan of the 360 - sure, I love the somewhat older cars, especially cars like the 288GTO and 512 BBi, but I like the 360, too. And I'm a bit of a soft touch for "stripped" or "performance" versions of road cars - hence my interest in the GT3, as well as a 2 wheel drive Lambo I hear is on the way. I have no argument at all with your statements about relative performance of the GT3 v the Stradale. I feel that, if one wants a 360, and I do, the Stradale is perhaps the most interesting version that will be made. I intend to track my Stradale occasionally but, measured solely in terms of performance bang for the buck, it does seem that the GT3 wins. Suffice it to say that I buy a car like this based not solely on performance measures, but also on what I acknowledge to be subjective intangibles.

[Edit - As for the track speed differential between the stock 360 and the Stradale, there are a lot of changes other than the weight and hp - most significantly, I think, improvements in the aero features. As for 0-200, I don't know.]

Grant - I have F1 trannies in both cars. I found the F1 tranny in my old '99 360 a bit balky, even in "sport" mode. Even the '00 Challenge car has a tendency to lurch a bit in upshifts, which can be unnerving if you're exiting a corner under power and need stability. Downshifts tend to be crisp. My '03 575 seems to have a much improved F1 over the '99 360, and I have heard others express the opinion that Ferrari's F1 has improved with age. My own feeling about the F1 is a sort of resignation that the age of the traditional manual is passing; I prefer the manual because I feel it gives me greater control, I hate to wait for the shift! It seems, however, that even most amateur level race cars are moving to sequential boxes, and I suspect we'll all be using paddles or buttons on street cars soon enough.

[Edit - one potentially nice feature of the F1 is an "automatic" mode. On the rare occasions when my wife drives the 575, she drives it as an automatic. After all this, if I were ordering a car today, I'd probably order the 6 speed.]

I love my 575 for the power and the - don't laugh - comparatively understated nature of the car, at least against the 360. To tell you the obvious, I think one absolutely has to drive the 575 before buying. As I'm sure you know, the 575 is NOT at all like the 360; the 360 has a lighter, quicker, more tossable feel. The 575 has that wonderful power, but feels like the relatively heavier albeit more practical GT it really is. IMO an aftermarket exhaust is essential to bring out the 575 engine note. If residual value is an issue, I'm concerned 575s will not hold their value well - the 550 market seems to be down, and I don't know why the 575s won't follow suit. Also, I have to admit the 575 design seems controversial in Ferrari circles, which certainly can't help resale. Unless your family member wants a new car, I'd definitely look at the 550s. I'd be happy to share my car's specs with you and FWIW give you my comments; ferrarichat.com also is a great place to find owners.

This is a great site, I cannot believe I didn't discover it until recently. Regards to all, Will

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Nov 21, 2003 8:48:06 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Welcome!

hey WCH,
Welcome to the site.
Thanks for the write up, very interesting.
But I'm not sure what you think, F1 or 6 speed? You seem to be undecided, you'd go for the 6 speed right? But nonetheless, you own F1 tranny cars

I like the F1 idea, sounds good, and I must admit, I've never tried it. I've been a passenger on a 575, and it wasn't perfectly smooth so I can imagine the frustration for amateurs like us.
It's funny how Magnetti Marelli (spelling?) do F1 trannies for all of them (except BMW and Audi) and opinions seem to differ a lot! Jerky on the Ferraris, great on the Vanquish, Smooth on the Gallardo. How does it work? Do the manufacturers ask for certain specs? I mean, it should be the same tranny but different fell?
Looked at Clarkson review of the Gallardo, nice car, would look good in black. And quicker than a GT3 round a track!
Impressive!
Fanch.
PS: I see you own a 93 C2 cab, good for you, nostalgic hey!

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Nov 21, 2003 8:50:54 AM

MarkSauder: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 1, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 21, 2003; Reply to: WCH

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver

It's nice to have one American car that I can be proud of!

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Nov 21, 2003 10:28:21 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Welcome!

Quote:

But I'm not sure what you think, F1 or 6 speed? You seem to be undecided, you'd go for the 6 speed right? But nonetheless, you own F1 tranny cars

Apart from driving pleasure (where the F1 is really convincing) there is one additional point to make. I have some concerns regarding durability. In my car the clutch broke down while shifting at 8,500rpm resulting in a major srew up of the entire gear unit. The car just had a mileage of 28,000km...

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Nov 21, 2003 12:12:52 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

WCH, welcome to the board and congrats to your great car park. In times of the power-and-torque-monsters of DC, the 575 is an underestimated jewel, simply beautiful. If any, perhaps only some Aston Martin can compete. Its design may look too normal at first sight, especially in comparison to its midengined predecessors, but it is timeless as one already can see in its current modell history.

And please don't get me wrong with the CS. I think it's still a fascinating car, but Ferrari either should promise only performance numbers that are true or should give us different numbers. That's it. And of course the weight figures should also be accurate, especially at a car like the CS.

Of course it's not all about numbers. It's also about personal preferences. For me the slight modifications outside compared to the standard Modena are just great. But I don't like the race car interior, as I prefer some luxury inside, even in sports cars. But then - I don't take my cars to the track.

Just my thoughts.

Anyway, I hope you share your experience concerning the differences between your 360 and the CS.

regards
sr

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Nov 21, 2003 2:24:19 PM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Fanch & rossi, thanks for the welcome.

Fanch, I will become a complete convert to F1 shifting when the street car F1 clicks off shifts as quickly as some of the relatively inexpensive track car sequentials. Just not smooth/fast enough yet. And I love the 964 cab, it absolutely is a nostalgia piece, I am sniffing around for a '94 speedster. The 964s IMO have a quaint, older sportscar feel that the 993s and later do not.

rossi, I agree with what you are saying. I think that it's time for Ferrari to roll out a 360 successor with 21st century performance, and I'd imagine Ferrari knows that. Though the Stradale is presented as an antidote to nostalgia for a "Ferrari with no frills," does anyone doubt that it also gives the line a a useful (marketing/sales) facelift until the next 8 cyl model emerges? I look forward to both the 575 and 360 successors with high expectations. IMO the current Porsche line-up sets a high standard.

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Nov 21, 2003 5:05:01 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

WCH, any information about the Modena successor? Is it due yet?
Congrats to your 964. I had a 1989 964 C4 once, wonderful car.

regards
sr

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Nov 21, 2003 9:51:59 PM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

"WCH, any information about the Modena successor?"

Unfortunately, none at all. What I'd really love would be a lovely to look at successor to the mid-engine 12 cyl cars ... a new Boxer.

Cheers, Will

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Nov 22, 2003 11:41:34 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Quote:
Unfortunately, none at all. What I'd really love would be a lovely to look at successor to the mid-engine 12 cyl cars ... a new Boxer.

Will, did I get you right? Do you mean there will be a midengined successor to the Maranello?

Best, Stefan

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Nov 22, 2003 2:13:03 PM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Stefan, I have no inside knowledge of a new mid engined 12 cylinder model, I meant only to express my hope that Ferrari will build such a car.

Regards, Will

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Nov 24, 2003 10:57:35 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Re: Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

Quote:
Stefan, I have no inside knowledge of a new mid engined 12 cylinder model, I meant only to express my hope that Ferrari will build such a car.

Regards, Will

So do I.

The new 612 Scaglietti should please all those, who want a fast and luxurios GT.

regards,
Stefan

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Ford GT vs. Challenge Stradale vs. GT3 - Car and Driver Jan.

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