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    Nov 25, 2003 11:51:01 PM

    RCA
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    Latest AMG engine rumor

    Rumor gets stronger and stronger: x55 engine seems to be replaced by a normally aspirated 6.0 l V12 engine with 500 HP or slightly more. Torque is rumored to be in the 700-750 Nm range. To me it sounds strange that the supercharged V8 will be replaced by a V12 (even if normally aspirated) but everything is possible. Personally I still put my bet on two other variants: supercharged V8 4-valve engine with direct fuel injection or a twin-turbo(!) charged V8 4-valve engine with direct fuel injection, both delivering around 520-560 HP.
    The next two years will be interesting.

    Nov 26, 2003 9:26:44 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    it really seems to me that AMG has got some sort of problems with their supercharged engines and they don't quite come clean about it. to me, AMG cars are mainly famous for their torque -- so to the N/A way of BMW seems weird to me. of course a big V12 with increased displacement will delivery a lot of torque as well -- the AMG 7.3 from the R129 SL got about 750 Nm of torque if i remember it right. but it was HEAVY as well. btw, isn't this engine still used in the pagani zonda?

    Nov 26, 2003 9:26:44 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    it really seems to me that AMG has got some sort of problems with their supercharged engines and they don't quite come clean about it. to me, AMG cars are mainly famous for their torque -- so to the N/A way of BMW seems weird to me. of course a big V12 with increased displacement will delivery a lot of torque as well -- the AMG 7.3 from the R129 SL got about 750 Nm of torque if i remember it right. but it was HEAVY as well. btw, isn't this engine still used in the pagani zonda?

    Nov 26, 2003 9:45:05 AM

    bmh-images
    Junior
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    To me it sounds logical that AMG will replace their supercharged engines with normally aspirated ones. If I remember correctly, you can handle emissions and fuel consumption much better with normally aspirated engines, not to speak about reliability.

    We will see the first herald of the new generation of AMG-engines in spring 2004, with the new SLK 55 and the C55, both with a normally aspirated V8 with 367 hp.

    bmh

    Nov 26, 2003 9:45:05 AM

    bmh-images
    Junior
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    To me it sounds logical that AMG will replace their supercharged engines with normally aspirated ones. If I remember correctly, you can handle emissions and fuel consumption much better with normally aspirated engines, not to speak about reliability.

    We will see the first herald of the new generation of AMG-engines in spring 2004, with the new SLK 55 and the C55, both with a normally aspirated V8 with 367 hp.

    bmh

    Nov 26, 2003 10:42:58 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: bmh-images

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    If I remember correctly, you can handle emissions and fuel consumption much better with normally aspirated engines



    On the contrary, there is no better thing than a turbo charged engine to control emissions but get more power at the same time. Air is the secret of power and emissions control.

    Nov 26, 2003 10:42:58 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: bmh-images

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    If I remember correctly, you can handle emissions and fuel consumption much better with normally aspirated engines



    On the contrary, there is no better thing than a turbo charged engine to control emissions but get more power at the same time. Air is the secret of power and emissions control.

    Nov 26, 2003 11:26:08 AM

    Bilal
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    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Just pray that all this torque comes at around 2000rpm, or you'll be shifting gears like in a modena.

    Nov 26, 2003 11:26:08 AM

    Bilal
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    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Just pray that all this torque comes at around 2000rpm, or you'll be shifting gears like in a modena.

    Nov 26, 2003 1:43:05 PM

    W8MM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Quote:
    If I remember correctly, you can handle emissions and fuel consumption much better with normally aspirated engines



    On the contrary, there is no better thing than a turbo charged engine to control emissions but get more power at the same time. Air is the secret of power and emissions control.



    RC is quite correct about this.

    Turbo-charged engines have lower geometric compression ratios in order to have manageable peak cylinder pressures under boost. The un-boosted (emissions-dyno city-cycle power levels) combustion temperatures are therefore lower and give less opportunity for the formation of oxides of nitrogen. This allows a slightly leaner part-throttle fuel calibration that helps with unburned hydrocarbon emissions. While it is true that catalytic converters need a balanced mixture of NOx and HC + CO to perfectly neutralize both sides of the oxygen equation, it always helps to start the process with smaller quantities of both.

    The way to more oxygen flow -- the true source of power -- is to either go above atmospheric pressure at normal engine speeds, or to run the oxygen pump (engine) faster at normal pressure. More gas pressure doesn't bend engine parts as easily as higher reciprocating speeds do (square law inertial loads). The only downside to turbo-charged reliability is the higher thermal load compared to a saug-motor of the same displacement and max revs. This can be allowed for in the design of the motor.

    RC said the same in many fewer words.

    Nov 26, 2003 1:43:05 PM

    W8MM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Quote:
    If I remember correctly, you can handle emissions and fuel consumption much better with normally aspirated engines



    On the contrary, there is no better thing than a turbo charged engine to control emissions but get more power at the same time. Air is the secret of power and emissions control.



    RC is quite correct about this.

    Turbo-charged engines have lower geometric compression ratios in order to have manageable peak cylinder pressures under boost. The un-boosted (emissions-dyno city-cycle power levels) combustion temperatures are therefore lower and give less opportunity for the formation of oxides of nitrogen. This allows a slightly leaner part-throttle fuel calibration that helps with unburned hydrocarbon emissions. While it is true that catalytic converters need a balanced mixture of NOx and HC + CO to perfectly neutralize both sides of the oxygen equation, it always helps to start the process with smaller quantities of both.

    The way to more oxygen flow -- the true source of power -- is to either go above atmospheric pressure at normal engine speeds, or to run the oxygen pump (engine) faster at normal pressure. More gas pressure doesn't bend engine parts as easily as higher reciprocating speeds do (square law inertial loads). The only downside to turbo-charged reliability is the higher thermal load compared to a saug-motor of the same displacement and max revs. This can be allowed for in the design of the motor.

    RC said the same in many fewer words.

    Nov 26, 2003 6:56:48 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    RC said the same in many fewer words.



    Very nice post, Mike. Thanks. English isn't my maternal language, so it is sometimes pretty difficult for me to find the right words to explain complicated technical issues.
    And I don't think I could have explained this issue even in my maternal language, German, as well as you did.

    Nov 26, 2003 6:56:48 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    RC said the same in many fewer words.



    Very nice post, Mike. Thanks. English isn't my maternal language, so it is sometimes pretty difficult for me to find the right words to explain complicated technical issues.
    And I don't think I could have explained this issue even in my maternal language, German, as well as you did.

    Nov 26, 2003 7:27:12 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Ok, I confirm ladies and gentleman, we have a rocket scientist on the board and if not, a serious car nutter.
    Very interesting post man, thanks
    Fanch.

    Nov 26, 2003 7:27:12 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Ok, I confirm ladies and gentleman, we have a rocket scientist on the board and if not, a serious car nutter.
    Very interesting post man, thanks
    Fanch.

    Nov 26, 2003 8:14:56 PM

    W8MM
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    W8MM
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Ok, I confirm ladies and gentleman, we have a rocket scientist on the board and if not, a serious car nutter.



    You guys are so nice (blush).

    I've been a Society of Automotive Engineers member for almost 20 years. Long ago, I spent a whole bunch of time at emissions dynos while making after-market electronic fuel injection adapter boxes for converting European exotics to USA EPA specs. That was lots of fun, but I'm glad it's over.

    Nov 26, 2003 8:14:56 PM

    W8MM
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    W8MM
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Ok, I confirm ladies and gentleman, we have a rocket scientist on the board and if not, a serious car nutter.



    You guys are so nice (blush).

    I've been a Society of Automotive Engineers member for almost 20 years. Long ago, I spent a whole bunch of time at emissions dynos while making after-market electronic fuel injection adapter boxes for converting European exotics to USA EPA specs. That was lots of fun, but I'm glad it's over.

    Nov 27, 2003 1:08:34 AM

    Texas911
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Will a V12 even fit in an E Class engine bay? Especially with twin turbos?

    Nov 27, 2003 1:08:34 AM

    Texas911
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    Reply to: W8MM

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Will a V12 even fit in an E Class engine bay? Especially with twin turbos?

    Nov 27, 2003 2:16:32 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Texas911

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Will a V12 even fit in an E Class engine bay? Especially with twin turbos?



    Didn't Brabus do it? The problem doesn't seem to be the fitting itself but making the E55's drivetrain capable of supporting the additonal power/torque. Brabus makes a lot of fuss about the V12 E-class but I actually never saw one on the road (did they sell any? ) and I didn't read a single real life test. I doubt AMG will ever put a E65 on the street, they had a hard time to build a CLK 55 Kompressor in a very limited edition with lots of power and a very ugly rear wing.

    Nov 27, 2003 2:16:32 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Texas911

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Will a V12 even fit in an E Class engine bay? Especially with twin turbos?



    Didn't Brabus do it? The problem doesn't seem to be the fitting itself but making the E55's drivetrain capable of supporting the additonal power/torque. Brabus makes a lot of fuss about the V12 E-class but I actually never saw one on the road (did they sell any? ) and I didn't read a single real life test. I doubt AMG will ever put a E65 on the street, they had a hard time to build a CLK 55 Kompressor in a very limited edition with lots of power and a very ugly rear wing.

    Nov 27, 2003 4:29:01 AM

    M5er
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    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    I have also heard (think it was here?) that there are safety issues with putting the biturbo V-12 in the W211?
    An AMG V-12 W211 would be absolutely marvelous, but again would the really do that? If they did, BMW would have to spend a while playing catch up. Interesting.

    Nov 27, 2003 4:29:01 AM

    M5er
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    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    I have also heard (think it was here?) that there are safety issues with putting the biturbo V-12 in the W211?
    An AMG V-12 W211 would be absolutely marvelous, but again would the really do that? If they did, BMW would have to spend a while playing catch up. Interesting.

    Nov 27, 2003 6:22:33 AM

    amgB
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    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Brabrus cost for an E class with v12 Twin Turbo - $300,000 US dollars.

    Nov 27, 2003 6:22:33 AM

    amgB
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    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Brabrus cost for an E class with v12 Twin Turbo - $300,000 US dollars.

    Nov 27, 2003 1:03:36 PM

    bmh-images
    Junior
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    There is no better thing than a turbo charged engine to control emissions but get more power at the same time. Air is the secret of power and emissions control.



    Oooopps... ...I was strongly convinced, that it was the other way round. Sorry, guys. My mistake.

    Nov 27, 2003 1:03:36 PM

    bmh-images
    Junior
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    There is no better thing than a turbo charged engine to control emissions but get more power at the same time. Air is the secret of power and emissions control.



    Oooopps... ...I was strongly convinced, that it was the other way round. Sorry, guys. My mistake.

    Nov 27, 2003 4:00:24 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: amgB

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Brabrus cost for an E class with v12 Twin Turbo - $300,000 US dollars.




    But did they sell one to anybody?

    Nov 27, 2003 4:00:24 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: amgB

    Re: Latest AMG engine rumor

    Quote:
    Brabrus cost for an E class with v12 Twin Turbo - $300,000 US dollars.




    But did they sell one to anybody?
     
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