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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997
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Dec 27, 2005 6:48:07 PM
- Paul S in TX
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Dec 27, 2005 6:56:15 PM
- excmag
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- Reply to: Paul S in TX
Re: what price gives us gas?
Much as I hate the idea of $5 a gallon, a Boxster or modern 911 is still fairly fuel efficient -- and the money saved on less gas vs. buying something (paying sales tax + buy in) is still too minimal.
Take it to $15 or maybe $10 and things change for me.
I agree with MMD on the other problems that will face the U.S. economy (and then a wider impact on various levels). I'd just be happy if so many Americans would get out of their gas-wasting daily drivers. And the trucks and SUVs as family cars are the most offensive in this category.
Personally, I feel driving anything as a daily that gets less than 20 mpg highway is morally questionable at this point. Oops, THAT's gonna get me in trouble!!!
pete
Take it to $15 or maybe $10 and things change for me.
I agree with MMD on the other problems that will face the U.S. economy (and then a wider impact on various levels). I'd just be happy if so many Americans would get out of their gas-wasting daily drivers. And the trucks and SUVs as family cars are the most offensive in this category.
Personally, I feel driving anything as a daily that gets less than 20 mpg highway is morally questionable at this point. Oops, THAT's gonna get me in trouble!!!
pete
Dec 27, 2005 7:14:14 PM
- Alex_997TT
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Re: what price gives us gas?
Throt - how do you get $7.35?
1GBP per litre = 1 x 1.73 x 3.785 = $6.54 a gallon
Anyway, at 20mpg that means it's costing me 32 cents a mile in 'gas' (19p a mile for us UK people) for my C2S. Averaging about 10K miles a year that's just over 3K USD in gas a year.
If you spend 140k USD on a 911 then you aren't really going to start complaining about gas prices until you actually run out of money! Well that's me anyway...
1GBP per litre = 1 x 1.73 x 3.785 = $6.54 a gallon
Anyway, at 20mpg that means it's costing me 32 cents a mile in 'gas' (19p a mile for us UK people) for my C2S. Averaging about 10K miles a year that's just over 3K USD in gas a year.
If you spend 140k USD on a 911 then you aren't really going to start complaining about gas prices until you actually run out of money! Well that's me anyway...
Dec 27, 2005 7:29:15 PM
- throt
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Dec 27, 2005 7:43:58 PM
- throt
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Re: what price gives us gas?
Is that what you guys are really paying per 'gallon' (I'll use 3.74l /gal). Wholly cow. At that price there would be civil war here in the states. Earlier this summer prices crept up to (gasp...) $3.00 and people were 'unhappy'. Now they have crept down to almost $2 ($2.09 is the cheapest I have seen here in Pheonix, add 0.20 for 91 octane) and most of us are accustomed to the $2.00 gallon (though in 2002, gas could be had for under $1 gallon (about 0.26 per liter) so that is a 100% increase in price over 3 years.
The real question is how many miles per year do you guys put on the car in Europe? Most of us will likely put 12-15000 miles (19-24 K km/yr) on our daily commuters. The annual gas bill can get pretty high for us and maybe similar to you if you drive half as much?
The real question is how many miles per year do you guys put on the car in Europe? Most of us will likely put 12-15000 miles (19-24 K km/yr) on our daily commuters. The annual gas bill can get pretty high for us and maybe similar to you if you drive half as much?
Re: what price gives us gas?
I'd say $15 per gallon, compared to the current $2.36 being charged for 93 octane premium. It would take that high a price, and it would have to stay at that level for a several years, before I would even consider selling the car (of which I am to take delivery in mid-late January 2006!). At a modest 8,000 miles per year averaging 20 miles per gallon, that would cost about $6,000 per year just for gasoline. Given the immense impact that kind of a price hike (roughly a six-fold price increase) would have on most consumers, it couldn't be sustained, as most consumers could not afford to pay such prices without drastically cutting back consumption.
Jim
Jim
Re: what price gives us gas?
Good question. Having had the pleasure of living in a few places around the world, it makes me smile every time I fill up the car, prices would have to be >$10 before I got slightly concerned. As Throt has said, they are already $7.50'ish in parts of Europe today - whats not added in for the US consumer though is that the insurance, service and initial purchase costs are also much higher imho.
I travel to Europe frequently on business, and to be honest it is a little scary when you take your 4 door standard rental car and it costs $100 to fill up - and its nothing special to drive.
The only way that the Mr Average US motorist will ever drop the gas guzzling V8 or V6 (remember, I said average so this is nothing special) is if the costs of running that vehicle increase significantly. Its actually quite sad when you drive your daily route to the office and realise that the average fuel economy of all the vehicles around you in the USA is probably <18mpg. Compare that with an average of the vehicles on a motorway in the UK or Germany.
We are all pretty fortunate to be the owners of great vehicles, and probably in the top something or other percentage where it comes to vehicle ownership. Be interesting to ask the same gas cost question to the average US motorist.
an element missing to add back in for folks in the US
I travel to Europe frequently on business, and to be honest it is a little scary when you take your 4 door standard rental car and it costs $100 to fill up - and its nothing special to drive.
The only way that the Mr Average US motorist will ever drop the gas guzzling V8 or V6 (remember, I said average so this is nothing special) is if the costs of running that vehicle increase significantly. Its actually quite sad when you drive your daily route to the office and realise that the average fuel economy of all the vehicles around you in the USA is probably <18mpg. Compare that with an average of the vehicles on a motorway in the UK or Germany.
We are all pretty fortunate to be the owners of great vehicles, and probably in the top something or other percentage where it comes to vehicle ownership. Be interesting to ask the same gas cost question to the average US motorist.
an element missing to add back in for folks in the US
Dec 28, 2005 2:49:24 AM
- U Boat Commander
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Re: what price gives us gas?
IMO, if gas prices hit $4/gal in the US, we're looking at a recession, which will slow economic activity and then lower the price of gas. Demand for gas in the US fell when gas got over $3/gal. I think the prevailing wisdom here is that $3/gal seems to be the price at which demand becomes "elastic". I'm sure we'll see $4/gal someday here in the US. But with the warm winter were having, I doubt it will be anytime soon. We would have to see another bad hurrican season next year or an oil shock out of OPEC to get there.
Dec 30, 2005 1:50:50 AM
- Jim48
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Re: what price gives us gas?
Quote:
U Boat Commander said:
IMO, if gas prices hit $4/gal in the US, we're looking at a recession, which will slow economic activity and then lower the price of gas. Demand for gas in the US fell when gas got over $3/gal. I think the prevailing wisdom here is that $3/gal seems to be the price at which demand becomes "elastic". I'm sure we'll see $4/gal someday here in the US. But with the warm winter were having, I doubt it will be anytime soon. We would have to see another bad hurrican season next year or an oil shock out of OPEC to get there.
Right, a recession might occur, reducing demand (shifting the demand curve to the left) for gasoline. But recessions eventually end. Regarding the price elasticity of demand for gasoline, over the short run (i.e., moving along the demand curve and not shifting it), the price elasticity of demand is extremely low, about -.05 to -.15, meaning that it takes a 100% increase in price to reduce the quantity demanded by 5 to 15%. Over the longer run, if prices stay high, more fuel efficient vehicles will be offered by manufacturers and this makes the long-run demand curve for gasoline more price elastic. But it never gets above the level of -1, meaning that significant and permanent price hikes rarely, if ever, lead to reduced total revenues for oil companies in the sale of gasoline. It would take some monumental shift in technology for this to occur. Neither hybrid vehicles nor fuel cells are likely to bring this about, at least for the foreseeable future (meaning next 10-20 years).
Jim
Re: what price gives us gas?
Over here in Germany, I'm paying 1 Euro 37 cents at my local fuel station for one litre of the finest Super Plus fuel (required for all Porsche models) with 98 octane (Europe). A litre of Shell VMax with 100 octane (Europe) is even 1 Euro 49 cents over here right now.
Let me see: one gallon is around 3.8 litres if I'm not wrong. So one gallon costs me over here in Germany 5 Euro 21 Cents. Using the current currency rate, this means that I'm paying 6 US Dollars 15 Cents for ONE GALLON.
"Funny" enough: car makers in Europe/Japan and even politicians and the population are hoping for higher fuel prices in the US. Reason? Global warming, etc. They want to "force" US buyers to buy more fuel efficient cars with less consumption. I doubt that this will happen but right now everybody over here seems to point with the finger towards the USA because they didn't sign the Kyoto protocol.
And please don't start a political discussion again, I was just reporting some "facts" from Europe. Don't kill the messenger. 
The most interesting thing is actually DIESEL. We have over here high performance/high power Diesel engines with 300 HP and more on cars and SUVs. Fuel consumption is very very low compared to fuel engines. A friend owns a VW Touareg V10 Diesel with 313 HP and his SUV eats around 10-15 litres Diesel/100 km. Diesel is also around 20% cheaper over here.
Or take the Audi/Mercedes Diesel limousines with 200-300 HP. Average Diesel consumption is around 10 litres/100 km. Very very low. So maybe this is the future for the US too, I doubt that hybrids will ever be THAT fuel efficient.
Let me see: one gallon is around 3.8 litres if I'm not wrong. So one gallon costs me over here in Germany 5 Euro 21 Cents. Using the current currency rate, this means that I'm paying 6 US Dollars 15 Cents for ONE GALLON.
"Funny" enough: car makers in Europe/Japan and even politicians and the population are hoping for higher fuel prices in the US. Reason? Global warming, etc. They want to "force" US buyers to buy more fuel efficient cars with less consumption. I doubt that this will happen but right now everybody over here seems to point with the finger towards the USA because they didn't sign the Kyoto protocol.
And please don't start a political discussion again, I was just reporting some "facts" from Europe.
Don't kill the messenger. The most interesting thing is actually DIESEL. We have over here high performance/high power Diesel engines with 300 HP and more on cars and SUVs. Fuel consumption is very very low compared to fuel engines. A friend owns a VW Touareg V10 Diesel with 313 HP and his SUV eats around 10-15 litres Diesel/100 km. Diesel is also around 20% cheaper over here.
Or take the Audi/Mercedes Diesel limousines with 200-300 HP. Average Diesel consumption is around 10 litres/100 km. Very very low. So maybe this is the future for the US too, I doubt that hybrids will ever be THAT fuel efficient.
Dec 30, 2005 3:58:23 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Dec 30, 2005 4:31:35 PM
- Damian
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Re: what price gives us gas?
At $10+ per gallon I'd be curtailing my driving.
Took my wife to Egypt for our honeymoon, gas there
at $US 42 cents/gallon!...(of course even that low price is higher to Egyptians relative to income than our $3/gallon in USA-- hence the tiny cars, locals in Luxor & Red Sea admiring our "high-performance" rental 1.6 Litre Opel Vectra luxobarge)
Took my wife to Egypt for our honeymoon, gas there
at $US 42 cents/gallon!...(of course even that low price is higher to Egyptians relative to income than our $3/gallon in USA-- hence the tiny cars, locals in Luxor & Red Sea admiring our "high-performance" rental 1.6 Litre Opel Vectra luxobarge)
Re: what price gives us gas?
Quote:
RC said:
Over here in Germany, I'm paying 1 Euro 37 cents at my local fuel station for one litre of the finest Super Plus fuel (required for all Porsche models) with 98 octane (Europe). A litre of Shell VMax with 100 octane (Europe) is even 1 Euro 49 cents over here right now.
Let me see: one gallon is around 3.8 litres if I'm not wrong. So one gallon costs me over here in Germany 5 Euro 21 Cents. Using the current currency rate, this means that I'm paying 6 US Dollars 15 Cents for ONE GALLON.
"Funny" enough: car makers in Europe/Japan and even politicians and the population are hoping for higher fuel prices in the US. Reason? Global warming, etc. They want to "force" US buyers to buy more fuel efficient cars with less consumption. I doubt that this will happen but right now everybody over here seems to point with the finger towards the USA because they didn't sign the Kyoto protocol.
And please don't start a political discussion again, I was just reporting some "facts" from Europe.
The most interesting thing is actually DIESEL. We have over here high performance/high power Diesel engines with 300 HP and more on cars and SUVs. Fuel consumption is very very low compared to fuel engines. A friend owns a VW Touareg V10 Diesel with 313 HP and his SUV eats around 10-15 litres Diesel/100 km. Diesel is also around 20% cheaper over here.
Or take the Audi/Mercedes Diesel limousines with 200-300 HP. Average Diesel consumption is around 10 litres/100 km. Very very low. So maybe this is the future for the US too, I doubt that hybrids will ever be THAT fuel efficient.
Not trying to spark a political discussion, but the the US reducing its emissions would be a very good thing, so if a gas price increase does it, it's all good. I am also starting to see the effect of higher gas prices here, where most people are no longer driving at the usual 130 km/h on the highway, but have actually reduced their speeds to roughly 100 km/h on average. Heck, if the prices rise even more, traffic volume might actually reduce as more people use buses, thus giving us ample room to stretch our cars' legs
.RC, did you see Audi's V12 diesel developed for Le Mans? Detuned to 500-550 HP it would be a GREAT engine for high performance sedans.
Re: what price gives us gas?
About 3 months ago I bought myself one of those dodgy Ford Lightning pickup trucks with a stupid 5.4L supercharged engine.
In that time my cheapest week has been $260, my steepest nearly twice that. (I now understand why no-one else in the UK seems to import these things from the US!)
Obviously this is my second car, but the Lightning is meant to be my sensible one of the two!!!
At least when my 911 arrives I can save some fuel money!
But they're gonne have to double fuel prices to scare me off! I live to spend all my income on fuel and (mostly) taxation! Sigh!! Some spend it on alcohol, I prefer petrol!
...Add
Re: what price gives us gas?
Hey RC, if you move to the US we'll gladly share our "cheap" gas with you... but, you would have to give up the autobahn... Me, I would not mind paying what you pay if I could also have an autobahn... On second thought, maybe I should be the one moving to Germany... to have some real fun... 
Re: what price gives us gas?
Quote:
Deven said:
Is that what you guys are really paying per 'gallon' (I'll use 3.74l /gal). Wholly cow. At that price there would be civil war here in the states. Earlier this summer prices crept up to (gasp...) $3.00 and people were 'unhappy'. Now they have crept down to almost $2 ($2.09 is the cheapest I have seen here in Pheonix, add 0.20 for 91 octane) and most of us are accustomed to the $2.00 gallon (though in 2002, gas could be had for under $1 gallon (about 0.26 per liter) so that is a 100% increase in price over 3 years.
The real question is how many miles per year do you guys put on the car in Europe? Most of us will likely put 12-15000 miles (19-24 K km/yr) on our daily commuters. The annual gas bill can get pretty high for us and maybe similar to you if you drive half as much?
Not uncommon for commuters here to put 20-30k on the clock each year. 1200-1500 is quite normal. My fuel bill is over Pounds3000 a year in the 987. Puts the cost of some of the options into sharp relief!
Re: what price gives us gas?
i ask as a geologist and investment pro... i expect gas to hit US 5/gal in the next year and perhaps 10/gal w/in 3 years in the US, even w/o greater taxation, as we will have less fossil fuels produced every year from here out.
from the responses, for which i thank you, it seems it may take much higher prices to get this segment of rather well off to change!
from the responses, for which i thank you, it seems it may take much higher prices to get this segment of rather well off to change!
Re: what price gives us gas?
Quote:
watt said:
i ask as a geologist and investment pro... i expect gas to hit US 5/gal in the next year and perhaps 10/gal w/in 3 years in the US, even w/o greater taxation, as we will have less fossil fuels produced every year from here out.
from the responses, for which i thank you, it seems it may take much higher prices to get this segment of rather well off to change!
Fear not. Coal liquefaction, like the SASOL project in South Africa, would be a major source of synthetic gasoline when conventional petroleum begins to run out. The U.S. has the largest coal resources on the planet. It's a queestion of when and at what price synthetic gasoline will be produced. Liquid fuels pack the most energy in a given volume, making them the best choice for fueling cars, planes, trains, trucks, etc.
Jim
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