Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know? - Page2

Dec 29, 2005 3:48:09 AM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Hello easy_rider911,

You said:'For a 997 C4, I wouldn't get PASM. As far as my understanding ( BASED UPON WHAT? SOME SCRIBES? WHICH ONES/suspensions HAVE YOU DRIVEN?)goes, the best suspension set up is the -20mm sports suspension (FOR WHAT CATEGORY OF ROADS AND DRIVING NEEDS? --READ THE LETTER THAT STARTED THE THREAD) which is unfortunately not available in the USA. After that, I believe (BASED UPON WHAT?)the next best set up is the standard suspension set up on the 997 C2 and 997 C4. I think PASM comes last (MMMh NO COMMENT NOT CREDIBLE).

Why do I think this? Well, I think (SO YOU HAVE DRIVEN ALL THE 3 997 SUSPENSIONS YOU TALK OF -- AND OVER WHAT RAODS?Over roads of the type our friend has described?) PASM in normal mode is just too soft.(NOW LET ME THINK OF A SUITABLE WORD --- NO!)for precise, sporty driving (COMING FROM nsx TERITORY, AND NOW THOROUGHLY 997, NO!). Chris Harris wrote an excellent article in GT Purely Porsche some months back saying the same thing.(THAT IS A MILD OVERSTATEMENT)'

I do hope the person who began the thread does not accept this as gospel "normal PASM too soft?"?! Where do you drive in the UK? Most other UK-types do NOT experience such billiard-table roads as you suggest. Read the 1st letter of the thread ----- most other responding to it, suggest the PASM to best suit his needs. And they are probably correct!( PAG are not idiots ---some think they are GODs!) But please drive several combinations, and buy what YOU like ---

Bonne Chance

KiwiCanuck

Next
Threads

Dec 29, 2005 4:00:10 AM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: excmag

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Hi tkids,

That was superior advice from the man (excmag). Take that to the bank/dealer.

I do however think you should drive the 3.6L standard first, and then a PASM if you can find one (well an S with 19in will at least give you a feel of the system.). It seems that most of us do not notice any issues with the PASM, based upon this web site. I had to push everyone very hard to get any negatives----

If you do not try both you will always regret not testing and choosing for yourself. I wish I had taken that route, so I would at least know, over my roads, which is better for me.

CHeers

KiwiCanuck

Next
Threads

Dec 29, 2005 5:09:41 AM

tkids: Co-Pilot; Loc: CO. USA. , United States; Posts: 198, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 15, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Hey KiwiC,

I have driven the C2 standard w/19s and a C4S with 19s. Unfortunately, with the test drives I am not spending enough time in the cars to notice much. On a test drive loop that is best related to an everyday drive around town scenario, I did feel the PASM take out minor bumps better than the standard. But such little time really isn't giving me much help it is only confusing me more. Would be nice to spend a hour in each car on some backroads. That is why I have asked for others opinions regarding what they now think after owning and driving their cars. I do understand most people ordering the S don't know a standard set up feel and don't go through the thought process of should they take it or not since they don't have a choice.

I appreciate all opinions as I still go back and forth on my decision.

Quote:
KiwiCanuck said:
Hi tkids,

That was superior advice from the man (excmag). Take that to the bank/dealer.

I do however think you should drive the 3.6L standard first, and then a PASM if you can find one (well an S with 19in will at least give you a feel of the system.). It seems that most of us do not notice any issues with the PASM, based upon this web site. I had to push everyone very hard to get any negatives----

If you do not try both you will always regret not testing and choosing for yourself. I wish I had taken that route, so I would at least know, over my roads, which is better for me.

CHeers

KiwiCanuck

Next
Threads

Dec 29, 2005 5:40:06 AM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: tkids

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Hello tkids,

Sorry that I forgot you had driven steel and PASM. Do you find the thread I mentioned on "PASM charcteristics ---- PDE/track days"? There are 4 pages of good stuff there, I think it is on page 3 now.

I copy one bit I wrote:

"I experienced just one piece of unique road near Saskatoon: smooth, on an otherwise estimated 140-150kph max corner, that was also strongly undulating (with undulations of different "wavelength", or size/length), that at 120-130kph made me say that my Acura TL 6spd-sports suspension-18in wheels was more 'comfortably' fast -- than the mighty Carrera. Which car I otherwise really love. The Carrera did NOT like that bit of road ----- " One of the web guys became quite annoyed at this and suggested I go to driving school!

There were quite a few guys who had the same experience on a few such roads.The answer was to move the system to Sports mode, when it handled it fine. The issue is quite rare, but when it happens the active system firms up for some undulations and not others -- as a Physicist, I would say that the road disturbances had reached the natural resonance period of PASM.

Actually none of the Porsche Mag writers, who are almost without exception GREAT, have described such a reaction of the car in this detail. They talk more generally in terms of the steel-dampers being absolutely predicatble, while the PASM is not always thus.

Well my piece above describes one such rare event.

But I had to push /provoke the guys on this web to respond in this way ---- most PASM owners never seem to get to that point!

Pete Stout, although talking of the 'sway' phenomenon, provided you with the best summary of PASM pros/cons etc, as one would expect of Pete. I wish he would comment (Pete?)on the effect I am talking of (he does generally allude to it), as it is actually more discomforting, although much more rare!

Either way, you are going to love the Car! The 'frayed' words were also VERY appropriate . 'It', 'they' are minor PASM effects, and I drive for weeks without sensing them---- I would still take the PASM, with the 18in wheels ----especially the 18 in wheels!

The final advantage of the PASM: normal dampers become firmer at temps below 15C or so, than during summer, while the PASM gives a wonderful ride/handling to as low as -20C (with the winter tires helping as well). The NSX was as hard as a cart at -20C!

Choose ----- don't worry --- and enjoy! You now know much more than almost everyone else on this web, when they bought their Carreras!

KiwiCanuck

Next
Threads

Dec 29, 2005 6:00:22 AM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Last thoughts before I head home:
*No one notes that PASM on a 3.6L provides firmer springs than the steel. But the PASM seems to look after that.
* The 18 in wheels+PASM DO help the ride and steering feel compared to the 19 in with PASM --- I suspect there are few such combinations around. I consider that the insistance by many for 19 in is a fetish, that is only rewarded on the track or on magnificant roads, rarely. I have a reply somewhere in this thread on this wheel size issue. My BBS summer set looks fantastic, as some wheel designs look 'bigger' than others. Anyway, the PASM-lowered 3.6L with 18in wheels looks GREAT. They 'fill the well'.
*Tire pressures can also be played with. Depending on distance travelled and speeds used, pressures lower than standard can be used. I used values of -6 pounds/sq.in on the NSX for years---no extra wear or high temps, but MUCH smoother ride on the high speed 80-110mph trip I make (30mi) to the lake (otherwise the road expansion joints banged a little too much for 'us'). There were relatively few corners. I also run the 997 at those values and have no issues --- such tuning, although common in racing, is rare amongst us street users. 6 lbs is similar to going up or down one stage of spring firmness.

Cheers

KiwiC

Next
Threads

Dec 29, 2005 5:37:35 PM

excmag: Junior; Loc: SF, CA; Posts: 51, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 22, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Yipes, I hope we're not beating a bit of a dead horse...

In writing about this phenomenon, it has been a challenge to keep it proportionate. In a glowing, 3,000 word story on the 997, this issue should really take up about a sentence -- maybe a paragraph. The 997 is a stunning acheivement and, while I disagree with some of Porsche's choices (such as dumping the spare -- it's more than just a convenience thing; I hope a 987/997 owner is never robbed and/or beaten on a desolate road when they get a flat tire and become a high-profile target/sitting duck) -- the car is amazing.

I especially like the 997 in base form. There's just something really sweet about a 997 stripper. I just wish it didn't sit so high...

ANYWAY, I'll try and take another stab at a more accurate description of what I have felt in every 2005 997 with PASM I've driven. In corners -- and at varied paces, both when pressing hard in medium/low-speed corners and when just rolling through a high-speed sweeper or freeway curve -- I feel a lateral shift in the rear end. It's slight -- something some drivers will just "get used to" and press on past with faith that the car will hold. And it probably will.

But for really sensitive drivers, it's exactly the kind of message that might signal an imminent loss of traction at the rear end -- even though the tires are far from breakaway. Like I said, some will drive thru this -- but I like to listen to the messages a 911 sends carefully. This is not a comforting one and thus robs some confidence -- for no good reason other than what may have been a ride-comfort compromise for customers. Sorry, but if you want comfort over handling, buy something other than a 911. If you want the perfect compromise (IMHO), buy a base 997...

If I think about it mechanically, this "lateral shift" or "lurch" or whatever you want to call it feels like something back there is putting up with a certain amount of side loadng without any "give" up to a certain load. Or it's compressing in a linear fashion. Pass that point and it "gives" -- or compresses suddenly -- down to a new thickness.

Now, if that doesn't sound like a bushing, I don't know what does. I am dying with curiousity to know if PAG did change the durometer of a bushing or two in the rear suspension for late 2005 MY or 2006 MY 997s -- but I may never get that confirmation. My best hope: it's the kind of question best asked over a drink at another model's intro. So I'll have to wait...

Maybe it WAS a software fix -- but my gut says no. My gut, however, can't always be trusted...

Finally, here's one more piece to the puzzle I've been trying to fit in: On that rainy day at Thunderhill, I just couldn't get "into" that 997S. Maybe the car had a bad alignment (it wouldn't be the first press car that did

) but I think it was more an issue of the rear end's messages -- I just didn't trust the car completely and thus it stole some of the fun of the day. Had it been dry, it probably wouldn't have been as big of a deal.

Anyway, one of the guys with a GT3 wanted to try the 997S on track, but the PCNA track release only allowed me in the car on track. So, as he'd been one of our contributors who took part in the 1,100-mile C-GT/GT2/GT3 thing, I let him drive it on the roads around the track to get at least an idea of what the 997S is like. I was VERY curious on his take of the ergonomics, torque, shifter, brakes, and other details as a GT3 owner/track junkie. So I didn't say anthing...

He found the "lateral shift" the first time he accelerated hard in second and shifted to third. I felt it from the passenger seat -- and was blown away by it. He hated it. Curious, I asked him to repeat his inputs and then I selected the Sport shock absorber setting. It did reduce the rear-end twitch on hard acceleration, but it did not eliminate it. We alternated between the two settings and this remained true.

Take it FWIW -- I am not sure how much that is.

Cheers,

pete

Next
Threads

Dec 29, 2005 10:12:51 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: excmag

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Thanks pete,

We should give this horse a 'break'. He does not deserve all of this --- he is a beautiful stallion, and most riders are very, very happy ---

But ----- read my piece again. What I describe has got nothing to do with the rear lurch. It IS the PASM being 'confused' as to whether be softer or harder, and so it does both, on consecutive or some undulations --- it a g-foce matter, when the undulations are of variable size and the car's speed is fixed.

Maybe I found the only road in Saskatoon like this --- and I would be delighted if you have NEVER experienced this --but others did say -"yes, just what I found a few times!"

On the horse again----- she is ready for a gallop.

KiwiC

Next
Threads

Dec 29, 2005 10:38:44 PM

excmag: Junior; Loc: SF, CA; Posts: 51, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 22, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Oh, THAT.

Yes, I've been pondering a commentary on how I feel about PASM -- Kuah and I have been kicking around the issue of "smart" shocks. I'm glad Porsche hasn't followed the road everyone else has -- and that when it adopts technology like "active" shocks or variable-ratio steering it does to with sporting character and feedback in mind.

Still, I have definitely felt PASM's subtle contributions on both the race track and the road. It's not anywhere as artificial as BMW's active roll control (hello driving simulator) or M-B smart shocks, but it's still another computer that is making some decisions outside your control. That said, PASM itself has yet to offend me. It's very good in both the 987 and the 997.

As for finding the exact phenomenon you describe and repeating it over and over? Spending more time than 1,500 miles here and 1,500 miles there would probably help, though.

Hmmmmnnnn....maybe I should order up a long-term car...? I only do when there's a good reason for it, and PASM (along with PCCB II) might be two good reasons.

pete

Next
Threads

Dec 30, 2005 11:15:04 AM

wtsnet: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bath, UK; Posts: 2430, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: excmag

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Quote:
excmag said:Hmmmmnnnn....maybe I should order up a long-term car...? I only do when there's a good reason for it, and PASM (along with PCCB II) might be two good reasons.

Cool! Could pick up a few UK subscribers...

Interestingly, Evo did an article a while ago, comparing a base 997 with a loaded 987. They were driven by an amateur and an experienced driver on road and track, and comparisons drawn. Yep, the 987 had PASM, and yep the pro driver found a 'confidence' issue in a corner on the road route.... I scanned and posted the article at the time... I'll see if I can find the link.

Next
Threads

Dec 30, 2005 11:19:28 AM

wtsnet: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bath, UK; Posts: 2430, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: wtsnet

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...=true#Post76860

Sorry, reading, it wasn't PASM related. Interesting retro-read though.

Next
Threads

Dec 30, 2005 5:29:59 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: wtsnet

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Thanks wtsnet,

It was a timely reminder to read that EVO article again, and note their preference for the PASM on the Carrera. Which, after all, is what the greatest % of NA, and Europeans, are likely driving!

Some of the angst we have aired about the PASM on this 997-part of the web -----'sway' and very occasional instances of undulations 'surprising' the active system ----- are so minor, compared with the PASM advantages (that EVO's article reminds us of, both on and off the track!).

After all, hitting an unexpected 'serious' bump in the middle of a very fast corner, with STANDARD suspension, is also VERY upsetting to car and driver. And a reminder, that if that led to a spin etc., we were going too b--- fast on a public road we did not know!

This 3.6L-PASM-18in wheel, ContiS winter, and BBS GT-RS Pilot Sport 1(yes), is very happy ----

Happy New year to all --- Cheers

KiwiCanuck

Top
Threads

Board	Subject	Last post	Views	Replies
Porsche	SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II)	4/17/24 7:16 AM Gnil	777428	1798
Porsche	Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos)	4/7/24 11:48 AM Boxster Coupe GTS	441772	565
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021)	5/12/23 12:11 PM W8MM	262803	288
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022	3/12/24 8:28 AM DJM48	261005	323
Porsche	The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche	1/30/24 9:18 AM RC	85271	45
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift	3/15/24 1:23 PM CGX car nut	5592	50
Porsche	The moment I've been waiting for...	2/1/24 7:01 PM Pilot	880686	1364
Porsche	992 GT3	7/23/23 7:01 PM Grant	816061	3868
Porsche	Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!	2/10/24 4:43 PM nberry	390966	1526
Porsche	GT4RS	4/21/24 11:50 AM mcdelaug	390081	1454
Others	Tesla 2 the new thread	12/13/23 2:48 PM CGX car nut	372247	2401
Porsche	Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design	7/3/23 12:30 PM Porker	368942	797
Porsche	Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour	4/11/24 12:32 PM Ferdie	289198	668
Porsche	Collected my 997 GTS today	10/19/23 7:06 PM CGX car nut	261326	812
Lambo	Huracán EVO STO	7/30/23 6:59 PM mcdelaug	240193	346
Lotus	Lotus Emira	6/25/23 2:53 PM Enmanuel	230440	101
Others	Corvette C8	10/16/23 3:24 PM Enmanuel	221206	488
Others	Gordon Murray - T.50	11/22/23 10:27 AM mcdelaug	169286	387
Porsche	Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS	6/11/23 5:13 PM CGX car nut	141050	144
BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	117528	303
Motor Sp.	2023 Formula One	12/19/23 5:38 AM Whoopsy	108615	685
Porsche	2022 992 Safari Model	3/7/24 4:22 PM Whoopsy	84183	239
AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	75078	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	53662	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	3/16/24 9:27 PM Whoopsy	25069	237
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	21170	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	19493	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16588	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	13716	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11244	55

Crown

Forum - Thread

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Re: Holy Cow! PASM or not?! With all the posts, I don't know?

Forum

Boards