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Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Difference in price between Cayman S and base 997 with same options is around 17000Euro in Germany. I just used Porsche configurator on Porsche German web site and this is the difference... BTW, I put -20mm/LSD option on 997 and PASM on Cayman S. I do not think that any of 997 or 997S coupe buyers will go for Cayman S. Target market for Cayman S buyers are BMW M3,Mercedes SLK55AMG etc. or cars in the same price class(at least here in Europe) and Boxster S.
I have a great respect for Cayman S, it is excellent car.
But, it will never sell as good as 997 or Boxster family...
I have a great respect for Cayman S, it is excellent car.
But, it will never sell as good as 997 or Boxster family...
Dec 28, 2005 3:40:17 AM
- Holminator
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The Cayman S would be a great car.
Dec 28, 2005 7:17:38 AM
- 03-turbo911
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Dec 28, 2005 11:56:02 AM
- bubblegum
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Re: Lets get it sorted ..
The thing is mid engine , the sky was the limit why purposely hold back the performance and possibilities to keep the 977 sacred . It is obvious from some of the reviews that they purposely made sure the car's performance was just under the 977 . Would it have been so bad if the car exceeded the 977 in some areas becuase I think being mid engine and designing a new car from the ground up that was very possible and was purposely held back . There could have easily been another version released at the same time with different engine , different brakes , different suspension et. that would have been an equal to the 977's performance . Come out with it at the same time like they did with the 997 and 997S . pect as it can have the same preformance as the 997 with the right options .
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
The Cayman does exceed the 997 by some margin in some areas, chiefly the handling and corner entry speeds, as does the Boxster for that matter, I also prefer the high speed stability of the mid engine Cayman to the layout of the 997, much more planted at speed.
All cars are held back for some reason, the 997 is held back as not to be as fast the 997S, this isn't by chance, 911 boys seem to gloss over this fact or don't mind.
Of course you wouldn't know any of this because you haven't even driven the Car you seem to be an expert in.
All cars are held back for some reason, the 997 is held back as not to be as fast the 997S, this isn't by chance, 911 boys seem to gloss over this fact or don't mind.
Of course you wouldn't know any of this because you haven't even driven the Car you seem to be an expert in.
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
You are right I am no expert on the Cayman and have not driven it , just going by looks and reviews but mainly looks . I have had 911's for almost 30 years and I guess a little bias , I am finding it had to even go from a 997 to a 430 . I just can never remember a car is the history of Porsche that was another model sports car that was priced anywhere close to the 911 as this was and it will be interesting to see if the car is going to be a big hit . This is the first time Porsche has a model almost competing with another model so threads and comparisons are bond to come up .
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Well, as I am a Boxster S(987,PASM) owner who tried both 997/997S and Cayman S I can say that all these cars are excellent. But, IMO Cayman S is not big step above Boxster S. Yes, Cayman S is faster, more rigid(solid top), etc. If you will mainly use your car on the road and price is big issue for you-then go for Cayman S(with PASM and 19"). On the other hand if you want a true icon and you plan to use your car on track also go for base 997( with -20mm/LSD and 19" options). Both cars are truly Porsche in character but, with different flavors...
Dec 28, 2005 8:56:06 PM
- 03-turbo911
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Dec 28, 2005 9:11:20 PM
- OCEAN
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Re: Lets get it sorted ..
I had a 944 when they came it was also a hatchback like the Cayman and fun to drive . Two years after the 944 was out they came out with a turbo model , so if in a few years the Cayman has a Turbo it could be quite the mid engine alternative to the 977 . Still think they could have made a much better looking car if this is the body to the mid engine Flagship of the company it is to close to looking like a Boxster with a hardtop . Would have been nice to see it follow more of the lines and details of the CGT .
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Didn't we all agree that this has to stop? It doesn't make sense. People can read price lists, people can do test rides and I suppose people who can afford a Cayman S or a 997 aren't stupid. So let's discuss the Cayman now, not the 997. People should make their decision based on what they read here and on the 997 board. And of course based on personal experience.
Dec 29, 2005 2:26:07 PM
- 03-turbo911
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RC
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Even though I agree with you RC, I also think that a healthy debate, especially when a new Porsche is relased, is natural. I still remember the debates that were raging on at the time that the Cayenne was introduced. And yes, I was in the thick of it, as one of the first Cayenne owners.
If a new Porsche doesn't stir emotions between lovers and haters than I'd guess they're doing something wrong. For example, look at the Cayenne section now, people have accepted it and hardly anyone calls it an ungodly creation anymore.;)
In the end, it's your site and your rules and I was just expressing an opinion as was OCEAN.:)
If a new Porsche doesn't stir emotions between lovers and haters than I'd guess they're doing something wrong. For example, look at the Cayenne section now, people have accepted it and hardly anyone calls it an ungodly creation anymore.;)
In the end, it's your site and your rules and I was just expressing an opinion as was OCEAN.:)
Dec 29, 2005 2:31:13 PM
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RC
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Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Quote:
03-turbo911 said:
Even though I agree with you RC, I also think that a healthy debate, especially when a new Porsche is relased, is natural. I still remember the debates that were raging on at the time that the Cayenne was introduced. And yes, I was in the thick of it, as one of the first Cayenne owners.
If a new Porsche doesn't stir emotions between lovers and haters than I'd guess they're doing something wrong. For example, look at the Cayenne section now, people have accepted it and hardly anyone calls it an ungodly creation anymore.;)
In the end, it's your site and your rules and I was just expressing an opinion as was OCEAN.:)
First rule: you can discuss anything you want as long as it doesn't violate the general board rules. I just thought that some guys on the Cayman board are already fed up with Cayman S vs. 997 discussions but if you want to continue them, no problem with me. Personally, I said what had to be said regarding the Cayman S and 997. So if you guys want to continue discussions in that direction, no problem with me or the other moderators.
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Just some of my thoughts about the constant 997 vs. Cayman debate.
We 911 owners are sounding a bit defensive. There really seems to be an emerging need to show that at (insert name of track here) some pro driver was x seconds faster in a 911 than in a Cayman; therefore the 911 is certainly better and worth all the extra cost. Oh, and on top of that, the 911 has some intangible something that a new model - especially one based on the lowly Boxster - can never, ever, ever, ever have. This all seems a bit irrelevant. Time around a track? Come on. For most of us, sports cars are about enjoying the act of driving day-in-day out and we spend very little time on a racetrack. Does time around a track tell me anything about how much I'm going to enjoy a car during a weekend drive in the country? Does the time it takes to reach 60 from a dead stop with a clutch-abusing launch meant to wring every last ounce of acceleration out of a car do this? For some maybe these are what create "enjoyment", but I'll bet a lot of others are like me. Honestly, if I were spending a lot of time on tracks, I'm not sure either of these models are really ideal options. Wouldn't I be looking at something more track oriented like a GT3? Further, from what I've seen with any of the published performance numbers on the Cayman, the 997, and the 997S, my guess is that the performance of these cars are so close that it's a driver's race. A better driver in a Cayman has a pretty good shot at being faster than a less skilled driver in a 997S. What about the "it's just a Boxster with a metal roof" line of reasoning? Just a Boxster? That's a pretty nice "just." The Boxsters I've driven have been fabulous little cars and feel every bit as deserving of being considered a "true" Porsche as my 997S does.
The pro-Cayman folks are not without sin either. The refrain? Mid-engine is simply superior to the ancient rear-engine pre-historic design of the 911, for the ultimate in handling, a car HAS TO BE MID-ENGINED and if Porsche had the guts to give the Cayman more horsepower it would eat the 911 for lunch. Yeah, maybe. But so what? Porsche haven't given it more power. It has what it has because that's what Porsche has chosen to do. If Nissan put 400 HP in a 350Z it would probably be faster than a stock 911. But they haven't, and it's not. When people begin to mod the Cayman for more HP, it will be faster than a stock 911. But others will have modded 911s that are faster than these modded Caymans. Mid-engine is the "ultimate"? Again, maybe. But, maybe not. Ultimate for what? Speed around a track? Handling on the road? I like mid-engine cars, the dynamics can be fun, but I don't love them. I really prefer the feel of a 911's rear-engine set-up. Do I think it's better than mid-engine? Nope. I just like it more. I'm sure others don't care for the feel of the 911 and prefer a mid-engine car.
The bottom line is that the 911 is a wonderful car ... and by all accounts it appears that the Cayman is going to emerge as another fantastic model by Porsche, just like the Boxster. Which is best? None of them. They all seem pretty different to me, and that's the beauty of it. We get to have choices. I like the 911 the best ... it never even occurred to me to wait and buy a Cayman. I don't want a convertible and I like the feel of having more torque than the Boxster has, so I didn't consider that either. I don't believe the 911 is better than either of these, I just like it more.
We 911 owners are sounding a bit defensive. There really seems to be an emerging need to show that at (insert name of track here) some pro driver was x seconds faster in a 911 than in a Cayman; therefore the 911 is certainly better and worth all the extra cost. Oh, and on top of that, the 911 has some intangible something that a new model - especially one based on the lowly Boxster - can never, ever, ever, ever have. This all seems a bit irrelevant. Time around a track? Come on. For most of us, sports cars are about enjoying the act of driving day-in-day out and we spend very little time on a racetrack. Does time around a track tell me anything about how much I'm going to enjoy a car during a weekend drive in the country? Does the time it takes to reach 60 from a dead stop with a clutch-abusing launch meant to wring every last ounce of acceleration out of a car do this? For some maybe these are what create "enjoyment", but I'll bet a lot of others are like me. Honestly, if I were spending a lot of time on tracks, I'm not sure either of these models are really ideal options. Wouldn't I be looking at something more track oriented like a GT3? Further, from what I've seen with any of the published performance numbers on the Cayman, the 997, and the 997S, my guess is that the performance of these cars are so close that it's a driver's race. A better driver in a Cayman has a pretty good shot at being faster than a less skilled driver in a 997S. What about the "it's just a Boxster with a metal roof" line of reasoning? Just a Boxster? That's a pretty nice "just." The Boxsters I've driven have been fabulous little cars and feel every bit as deserving of being considered a "true" Porsche as my 997S does.
The pro-Cayman folks are not without sin either. The refrain? Mid-engine is simply superior to the ancient rear-engine pre-historic design of the 911, for the ultimate in handling, a car HAS TO BE MID-ENGINED and if Porsche had the guts to give the Cayman more horsepower it would eat the 911 for lunch. Yeah, maybe. But so what? Porsche haven't given it more power. It has what it has because that's what Porsche has chosen to do. If Nissan put 400 HP in a 350Z it would probably be faster than a stock 911. But they haven't, and it's not. When people begin to mod the Cayman for more HP, it will be faster than a stock 911. But others will have modded 911s that are faster than these modded Caymans. Mid-engine is the "ultimate"? Again, maybe. But, maybe not. Ultimate for what? Speed around a track? Handling on the road? I like mid-engine cars, the dynamics can be fun, but I don't love them. I really prefer the feel of a 911's rear-engine set-up. Do I think it's better than mid-engine? Nope. I just like it more. I'm sure others don't care for the feel of the 911 and prefer a mid-engine car.
The bottom line is that the 911 is a wonderful car ... and by all accounts it appears that the Cayman is going to emerge as another fantastic model by Porsche, just like the Boxster. Which is best? None of them. They all seem pretty different to me, and that's the beauty of it. We get to have choices. I like the 911 the best ... it never even occurred to me to wait and buy a Cayman. I don't want a convertible and I like the feel of having more torque than the Boxster has, so I didn't consider that either. I don't believe the 911 is better than either of these, I just like it more.
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Base Model, USA MSRP, Cost to next Model
Boxster S, $54,700, + $4,200 =
Cayman S, $58,900 + $12,400 =
911 Carrera, $71,300
These cars are different enough in nature to offer Porsche customers a real choice.
The question: Do I want a 2006 Boxster S or Cayman S with options or the next base modle with less option at the same price is a question that most US 2006 Boxster S and Cayman S buyers will inevitably face.
Boxster S, $54,700, + $4,200 =
Cayman S, $58,900 + $12,400 =
911 Carrera, $71,300
These cars are different enough in nature to offer Porsche customers a real choice.
The question: Do I want a 2006 Boxster S or Cayman S with options or the next base modle with less option at the same price is a question that most US 2006 Boxster S and Cayman S buyers will inevitably face.
My opinion
I have to say that I am not very interested in the obsessive aspects of the 997 v Cayman debate that seems to dominate this website and displays the partisan attributes of the writers to great effect.
Now that I have both cars I readily acknowledge that they are both different and similar. I love the 997 and I love the Cayman.
But the acid test is probably, now that I have ownership experience of both, what would I buy next?
Let me say staight away that I have no interest in the 911TT, GT2 or GT3. If you want that kind of car then the Cayman is not an alternative.
But I have to say that, for my own purposes, the Cayman S is the equal of the 997. Sure, it does not have the low-down torque of the 997 but it is more than fast enough for me (and the local police in VA). And it has its own dynamic plus points that more than balance out the reduction in absolute power output - for me at least.
The net result is that I suspect that I am unlikely to buy another 911 in its current configuration (although I believe that the 997's successor will be a completely different kind of car, more like a Carrera GT and that will change the rules again).
And I am now seriously contemplating swapping my 997 (in the US) for a Cayman.
Given that the Cayman is so much cheaper than the 997 and that they are more or less equal in my mind, I cannot believe that I will buy another 997 unless, or until, there is sufficient differentiation between the two cars to justify it. And that is not the case today.
And that is from someone who most would have regarded as " a 911 person" - my first 911 was bought in 1985.
Everyone is different and I don't expect anyone else to have the same kind of perspectives as myself so I am not making a "this is better than that" statement.
But I am not at all sure that Porsche can easily increase the differential between the Cayman and 911 in order to attract people such as myself. Where are the are the areas of opportunity other than ever-increasing performance in a world that finds that increasingly irrelevant?
I do worry that Porsche might have shot themselves in the foot with the Cayman. But, maybe they are cleverer than we think and this is just another step in the re-definition of their marketplace.
It is all very well for people to say "for another $x or Poundsx one could get a 997 one could get a 997- and for another 10% one could get a 997s but not everyone has that option, or desire.
The fact is that the Cayman is a great car for many, at a significantly lower price than a 997. Or, if you are Boxster-obsessive, a great coupe at significantly more than the Boxster.
Time will tell...
Now that I have both cars I readily acknowledge that they are both different and similar. I love the 997 and I love the Cayman.
But the acid test is probably, now that I have ownership experience of both, what would I buy next?
Let me say staight away that I have no interest in the 911TT, GT2 or GT3. If you want that kind of car then the Cayman is not an alternative.
But I have to say that, for my own purposes, the Cayman S is the equal of the 997. Sure, it does not have the low-down torque of the 997 but it is more than fast enough for me (and the local police in VA). And it has its own dynamic plus points that more than balance out the reduction in absolute power output - for me at least.
The net result is that I suspect that I am unlikely to buy another 911 in its current configuration (although I believe that the 997's successor will be a completely different kind of car, more like a Carrera GT and that will change the rules again).
And I am now seriously contemplating swapping my 997 (in the US) for a Cayman.
Given that the Cayman is so much cheaper than the 997 and that they are more or less equal in my mind, I cannot believe that I will buy another 997 unless, or until, there is sufficient differentiation between the two cars to justify it. And that is not the case today.
And that is from someone who most would have regarded as " a 911 person" - my first 911 was bought in 1985.
Everyone is different and I don't expect anyone else to have the same kind of perspectives as myself so I am not making a "this is better than that" statement.
But I am not at all sure that Porsche can easily increase the differential between the Cayman and 911 in order to attract people such as myself. Where are the are the areas of opportunity other than ever-increasing performance in a world that finds that increasingly irrelevant?
I do worry that Porsche might have shot themselves in the foot with the Cayman. But, maybe they are cleverer than we think and this is just another step in the re-definition of their marketplace.
It is all very well for people to say "for another $x or Poundsx one could get a 997 one could get a 997- and for another 10% one could get a 997s but not everyone has that option, or desire.
The fact is that the Cayman is a great car for many, at a significantly lower price than a 997. Or, if you are Boxster-obsessive, a great coupe at significantly more than the Boxster.
Time will tell...
..Re: My opinion
Thanks for the great insight on the Cayman Ken, it carries a lot of weight when you have both it and the 997 to compare. I like everything Porsche makes....just some models more than others. Please post some more pics of the Cayman if/when you have the chance.
BTW.....what are Cayman specs?
BTW.....what are Cayman specs?
Re: My opinion
Actually Porsche are probably laughing at all this heated debate - if the Cayman makes 911 drivers feel superior then that's perfect, and if Boxster drivers want to stick with a Boxster then Porsche haven't really lost out - they can switch production between Boxster and Cayman no problem.
In the meantime, the Cayman has attracted new people to the Porsche fold. Many of the first buyers have never had a Porsche before. Perfect product positioning!
In the meantime, the Cayman has attracted new people to the Porsche fold. Many of the first buyers have never had a Porsche before. Perfect product positioning!
Re: Lets get it sorted ..
Quote:
TimN said:
Just some of my thoughts about the constant 997 vs. Cayman debate.
We 911 owners are sounding a bit defensive. There really seems to be an emerging need to show that at (insert name of track here) some pro driver was x seconds faster in a 911 than in a Cayman; therefore the 911 is certainly better and worth all the extra cost. Oh, and on top of that, the 911 has some intangible something that a new model - especially one based on the lowly Boxster - can never, ever, ever, ever have. This all seems a bit irrelevant. Time around a track? Come on. For most of us, sports cars are about enjoying the act of driving day-in-day out and we spend very little time on a racetrack. Does time around a track tell me anything about how much I'm going to enjoy a car during a weekend drive in the country? Does the time it takes to reach 60 from a dead stop with a clutch-abusing launch meant to wring every last ounce of acceleration out of a car do this? For some maybe these are what create "enjoyment", but I'll bet a lot of others are like me. Honestly, if I were spending a lot of time on tracks, I'm not sure either of these models are really ideal options. Wouldn't I be looking at something more track oriented like a GT3? Further, from what I've seen with any of the published performance numbers on the Cayman, the 997, and the 997S, my guess is that the performance of these cars are so close that it's a driver's race. A better driver in a Cayman has a pretty good shot at being faster than a less skilled driver in a 997S. What about the "it's just a Boxster with a metal roof" line of reasoning? Just a Boxster? That's a pretty nice "just." The Boxsters I've driven have been fabulous little cars and feel every bit as deserving of being considered a "true" Porsche as my 997S does.
The pro-Cayman folks are not without sin either. The refrain? Mid-engine is simply superior to the ancient rear-engine pre-historic design of the 911, for the ultimate in handling, a car HAS TO BE MID-ENGINED and if Porsche had the guts to give the Cayman more horsepower it would eat the 911 for lunch. Yeah, maybe. But so what? Porsche haven't given it more power. It has what it has because that's what Porsche has chosen to do. If Nissan put 400 HP in a 350Z it would probably be faster than a stock 911. But they haven't, and it's not. When people begin to mod the Cayman for more HP, it will be faster than a stock 911. But others will have modded 911s that are faster than these modded Caymans. Mid-engine is the "ultimate"? Again, maybe. But, maybe not. Ultimate for what? Speed around a track? Handling on the road? I like mid-engine cars, the dynamics can be fun, but I don't love them. I really prefer the feel of a 911's rear-engine set-up. Do I think it's better than mid-engine? Nope. I just like it more. I'm sure others don't care for the feel of the 911 and prefer a mid-engine car.
The bottom line is that the 911 is a wonderful car ... and by all accounts it appears that the Cayman is going to emerge as another fantastic model by Porsche, just like the Boxster. Which is best? None of them. They all seem pretty different to me, and that's the beauty of it. We get to have choices. I like the 911 the best ... it never even occurred to me to wait and buy a Cayman. I don't want a convertible and I like the feel of having more torque than the Boxster has, so I didn't consider that either. I don't believe the 911 is better than either of these, I just like it more.
and welcome !
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