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    Dec 22, 2005 6:26:37 AM

    Bennett
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    Reply to: OCEAN

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    I've been driving the new M5 with SMG for the last three days and while I was initially hesitant, I'm really starting to like it. Those who complain that it isn't involving enough or come up with other excuses simply haven't given it enough of a chance or aren't using it correctly. SMG gives you more control over your car than you have with a manual, that's right! Shifts are extremely precise/fast, misshifting does not happen and you just have to listen to the beautiful sound it makes as it rev matches on down shifts. Now I know a lot of you are going to come at me with the argument of how satisfying/involving it is to perfectly heel toe downshift and row your own gears, which is very satisfying no doubt, but SMG is simply better. Paddle shifters don't make the drive less involving, rather they allow you to pay more attention to your line and brake points and less about shifting. Many of you complain about how bad paddle shifting transmissions are but love it when other new technologies come along which improve performance in other areas. Manual transmissions are great but like drum brakes, they're past their prime. I'm sorry to say it but paddle shifters are here to stay and for good reason.

    Dec 22, 2005 9:01:32 AM

    turbolite
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:
    I've been driving the new M5 with SMG for the last three days and while I was initially hesitant, I'm really starting to like it. Those who complain that it isn't involving enough or come up with other excuses simply haven't given it enough of a chance or aren't using it correctly. SMG gives you more control over your car than you have with a manual, that's right! Shifts are extremely precise/fast, misshifting does not happen and you just have to listen to the beautiful sound it makes as it rev matches on down shifts. Now I know a lot of you are going to come at me with the argument of how satisfying/involving it is to perfectly heel toe downshift and row your own gears, which is very satisfying no doubt, but SMG is simply better. Paddle shifters don't make the drive less involving, rather they allow you to pay more attention to your line and brake points and less about shifting. Many of you complain about how bad paddle shifting transmissions are but love it when other new technologies come along which improve performance in other areas. Manual transmissions are great but like drum brakes, they're past their prime. I'm sorry to say it but paddle shifters are here to stay and for good reason.



    you sum it up very nicely. there is no reason for me not to buy a car with a DSG if there is the option. these are technological breakthroughs like VTG, ABS, PCM etc. yes, those system do interfere with the drive, but they all make us go faster and safer. and i'd like to point out that DSG adds even more efficiency and fluency into the gearshift than an smg. I do heel/toe very often, but that also induces to drive hard, as it works better then.

    Dec 22, 2005 10:00:13 AM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:
    I've been driving the new M5 with SMG for the last three days and while I was initially hesitant, I'm really starting to like it. Those who complain that it isn't involving enough or come up with other excuses simply haven't given it enough of a chance or aren't using it correctly. SMG gives you more control over your car than you have with a manual, that's right! Shifts are extremely precise/fast, misshifting does not happen and you just have to listen to the beautiful sound it makes as it rev matches on down shifts. Now I know a lot of you are going to come at me with the argument of how satisfying/involving it is to perfectly heel toe downshift and row your own gears, which is very satisfying no doubt, but SMG is simply better. Paddle shifters don't make the drive less involving, rather they allow you to pay more attention to your line and brake points and less about shifting. Many of you complain about how bad paddle shifting transmissions are but love it when other new technologies come along which improve performance in other areas. Manual transmissions are great but like drum brakes, they're past their prime. I'm sorry to say it but paddle shifters are here to stay and for good reason.



    Here are my thoughts,
    I sat on the passenger seat of an M5 recently and test drove a Maserati Quattroporte last weekend.
    On the transmission alone, the BMW seems vastly superior in speed and smoothness, but, and I don't know if you'd agree with me C4S Co Driver, it is still perfectible for city driving.
    I find it very jerky, as a passenger in the Beemer and as a driver in the Maser and that was in Auto mode. It's better at high speed and also in auto sport mode but there's no doubt in my mind that the F1 gearbox (let's call it like this for argument's sake) was designed to be used at high rpms for spirited driving, and only then, is is actually fun.
    Now one solution for town driving would then be to drive it in manual mode as at low rpm, you release the throttle to allow for a smooth greashift, but then, you hit another problem, as a driver, you cannot control the clutch slippage between the racks!
    With a normal clutch pedal, you can modulate via the pedal how much friction you put on the clutch, now an F1, it's either on or off and hence, jerky! Damn!
    It's great fun at higher speeds though.
    It was fun because it was new to me, I don't know whether or not I would get bored of the computer matching revs for me on downshifts for example. I admit that doing it myself and matching the rev to the 100th gives me a little element of satisfaction, even in town, quite tricky in town actually!
    Overall, I'm in favor, no doubt, but it's not quite good enough for me yet to take the plunge.
    Maybe Porsche has taken the time to perfect the system for low speeds? I don't know.
    In the meantime I'll stick to manual.
    PS: It's an anecdote guys, but did you know the Maserati MC12 has an F1 gearbox, but the MC12 FIA has a manual gearbox! Just teesing, but it's true! Drivers use the clutch pedal mostly to get the car rolling then the sunchromesh are so sensitive that you can change gears without the clutch pedal and it's not an H grill but a push up, push down stick, still a manual though!

    Dec 22, 2005 10:08:31 AM

    AS
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    i've got SMG, driven F1 gearbox (Quattroporte, F360, Scagletti), as well as DSG (VW Golf gti). DSG beats 'em all. you should go try it.

    Dec 22, 2005 10:25:45 AM

    Crash
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    AS said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I've never had a problem with one hand on the wheel, the other shifting, driving like a maniac or otherwise. I've tried it, I have no affinity for it.

    I didn't realize driving fast was so difficult, you needed a nanny-tranny to accomplish it.



    same could be said of power steering, ABS, PSM, PASM, or basically any bit of modern car technology (incl. power seats/windows). fact is - if it'll shave 0.3secs off 0-60 (all the way thru 180+mph), am afraid these transmissions are the way of the future.

    & btw, i too very much enjoy manuals.



    Power steering is something I don't need. Power seats are something I don't need. Even the damn PCM I don't need. PSM is there only for normal driving, to keep you safe - one turns it off when driving hard. PASM helps you select several different suspension settings - it has no bearing on your driving experience, except for changing the suspension firmness. Now manual/auto on the other hand... It DOES have an impact on your driving experience. I don't want the damn computer to control the car. I like shifting stick and using the clutch. For what I care, Porsche can offer DSG where ever it wants, but they better keep the manual on offer. Too much electronics in today's cars.

    Dec 22, 2005 10:38:28 AM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: AS

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    AS said:
    i've got SMG, driven F1 gearbox (Quattroporte, F360, Scagletti), as well as DSG (VW Golf gti). DSG beats 'em all. you should go try it.



    SMG felt faster for sure, but my mate was showing me what a disaster it is in normal auto mode and it is.
    Accelerate gently like you would in normal city traffic and the box is no way near as smooth as a proper automatic gearbox, it's really jerky!
    It is a great option, but the extent of the compromise is just too big for me right now.
    I can see how a lot of people can be happy with it though.

    Dec 22, 2005 10:40:29 AM

    FutchM
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    AS said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I've never had a problem with one hand on the wheel, the other shifting, driving like a maniac or otherwise. I've tried it, I have no affinity for it.

    I didn't realize driving fast was so difficult, you needed a nanny-tranny to accomplish it.



    same could be said of power steering, ABS, PSM, PASM, or basically any bit of modern car technology (incl. power seats/windows). fact is - if it'll shave 0.3secs off 0-60 (all the way thru 180+mph), am afraid these transmissions are the way of the future.

    & btw, i too very much enjoy manuals.



    Power steering is something I don't need.



    I don't think I could handle a car without power steering for everyday driving.
    It's the one option that really makes people's driving easier in normal traffic.
    I parked an F40 once, yes, just parked, my arms were tired!
    Do you drive a lot of cars without power steering Crash?

    Dec 22, 2005 11:45:49 AM

    Crash
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    AS said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I've never had a problem with one hand on the wheel, the other shifting, driving like a maniac or otherwise. I've tried it, I have no affinity for it.

    I didn't realize driving fast was so difficult, you needed a nanny-tranny to accomplish it.



    same could be said of power steering, ABS, PSM, PASM, or basically any bit of modern car technology (incl. power seats/windows). fact is - if it'll shave 0.3secs off 0-60 (all the way thru 180+mph), am afraid these transmissions are the way of the future.

    & btw, i too very much enjoy manuals.



    Power steering is something I don't need.



    I don't think I could handle a car without power steering for everyday driving.
    It's the one option that really makes people's driving easier in normal traffic.
    I parked an F40 once, yes, just parked, my arms were tired!
    Do you drive a lot of cars without power steering Crash?



    I used to. I mean, power steering is nice, but if you're fit enough, the lack of it doesn't present a huge problem. IMO sports cars should have a "power steering delete" option. But that's just me.

    Dec 22, 2005 4:15:14 PM

    69bossnine
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    I hate bad analogies, I mean, it really drives me nuts...

    Power steering only assists the steering, it doesn't STEER THE CAR FOR YOU, it does not replace an aspect of driving the car.

    The same goes for the rest of the technologies cited. They are there to enhance and/or affect a particular aspect of driving the car, but none of them REPLACE a fundamental aspect of driving, that being control of engine speed, power delivery, gear choice, and car direction. You can consider those the basic "elements" of driving. And in a way, you can also think of them like you do your own senses. Yes, it's true, if you go blind, some of your other senses intensify. But who here would choose to lose one sense, in favor of intensifying the others?? I like shifting. Ya hear me? I LIKE IT!!! I'm not willing to toss the job to a machine, so I can spend more time steering. Let's face it, I outgrew sitting on the center console of my mom's car and steering it through the neighborhood while she worked the pedals YEARS AGO.

    Nobody is coming up with "excuses". Saying that you prefer to shift the damn car yourself is not an "excuse", it's a statement of fact for that particular person. Why would I have make excuses for something I enjoy and take pride in mastering?

    If you like the F1 style gearboxes, then that's fine. But can't we all be honest with ourselves? Don't pretend that it doesn't take away an aspect of driving, WHEN IT DOES. Funny how everybody can talk about how lame an automatic tranny is, but HEY..if you toss out the torque converter, add clutches, a robot to engage them, and put the shifters up by the steering wheel, and then use all this stuff in race cars...OH BOY, now it's COOL!!!! But I hate to burst your boyish bubbles, it's just automatic shifting, using a different method, that's all... Admit it. Otherwise it's like saying that a microwave isn't really an oven, because it doesn't get hot. F1 trannies are more involving than a fluid-drive auto, but to say it's MORE involving than manual, because now you can pay more attention to other things?? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. That's not more involving, that's just making it EASIER for you to concentrate on steering. I'm all for things being a bit easier, when it comes to driving. Trust me, it's a hell of alot easier to go fast in my 997S than it is to go fast in my old cars. Technology is good. But whether the car was built in 1965, or 2005, certain things remain constants. You control the car, you are the hub, through which all control flows. You have the same "elements".

    But please, spare us from inventing the notion that losing the clutch pedal and letting the car shift for you makes you a more "involved" driver. It just makes you a more "involved" STEERER. And if you enjoy that swing in the balance more, then by all means, more power to you.

    I don't enjoy it. And it's not me being an old-school grump, it's me deriving joy from all aspects of controlling the car, not just some at the expense of others.

    Driving a car is not unlike being a one-man-orchestra. Technology and effects are fine. But when you reach a point that you put down one instrument, to concentrate more on the others... well, that's o.k.. But don't say you're more "involved" than the guy who still prefers to play all the instruments with his own hands and feet, because he feels that the orchestra sounds hollow with any one of them missing.

    Race cars are for winning races

    My street car is for pleasing me. I like shifting the gears, because that's part of my orchestra, and the Porsche is a friggin symphony.

    My truck is more like the guy on the corner playing banjo and dancing. It's o.k. that I'm not shifting, it's not really about that anyhow.

    Dec 22, 2005 6:01:56 PM

    Bennett
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    I find it very jerky, as a passenger in the Beemer and as a driver in the Maser and that was in Auto mode. It's better at high speed and also in auto sport mode but there's no doubt in my mind that the F1 gearbox (let's call it like this for argument's sake) was designed to be used at high rpms for spirited driving, and only then, is is actually fun.
    Now one solution for town driving would then be to drive it in manual mode as at low rpm, you release the throttle to allow for a smooth greashift, but then, you hit another problem, as a driver, you cannot control the clutch slippage between the racks!
    With a normal clutch pedal, you can modulate via the pedal how much friction you put on the clutch, now an F1, it's either on or off and hence, jerky! Damn!



    I only drive the M5 using the paddles. I don't use the automatic mode as it's the dumbest automatic ever (so sad). Even at low speeds shifting up and down, I can drive just as smooth as my automatic X5. It's all about learning how to use the system. Learning curve!

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:If you like the F1 style gearboxes, then that's fine. But can't we all be honest with ourselves? Don't pretend that it doesn't take away an aspect of driving, WHEN IT DOES. Funny how everybody can talk about how lame an automatic tranny is, but HEY..if you toss out the torque converter, add clutches, a robot to engage them, and put the shifters up by the steering wheel, and then use all this stuff in race cars...OH BOY, now it's COOL!!!! But I hate to burst your boyish bubbles, it's just automatic shifting, using a different method, that's all... Admit it. Otherwise it's like saying that a microwave isn't really an oven, because it doesn't get hot. F1 trannies are more involving than a fluid-drive auto, but to say it's MORE involving than manual, because now you can pay more attention to other things?? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. That's not more involving, that's just making it EASIER for you to concentrate on steering. I'm all for things being a bit easier, when it comes to driving. Trust me, it's a hell of alot easier to go fast in my 997S than it is to go fast in my old cars. Technology is good. But whether the car was built in 1965, or 2005, certain things remain constants. You control the car, you are the hub, through which all control flows. You have the same "elements".



    I don't find SMG to take away from the driving experience like you've mentioned. I have to ask, have you used an SMG transmission and if so, how long did you use it? I could see how it would seem inferior from the standpoint of someone who used it for only one day or was pessimistic about it before they even drove it, which no offense, sounds like you. SMG is not an automatic transmission; it's actually closer to a manual transmission in terms of mechanical components. It's a manual transmission with a robotic clutch. But I understand what you're getting at. You still are the "hub" of the car with SMG. SMG won't do anything you don't tell it to in manual mode; aside from downshift when your RPMs go so low that the engine will stall. It will bounce of the rev limiter all day if that's what you're worried about. So you say that you don't have enough control of the car with SMG? I know when I started out driving a manual car; I was scared out of my mind. I felt like I had no control with so much more to do. I think of SMG the same way. Initially you feel out of control, but with time you learn to how use the system and things fall in line. Just because something has been in place for a long period of time (aka the manual transmission) does not mean that it is the best solution.

    FYI, a microwave is not an oven. A microwave emits wavelengths at the resonate frequency of water, which is why you can only heat items with water in them. Try and microwave cake mix, nothing happens. An oven on the other hand uses actual temperature change to heat food.

    Dec 22, 2005 8:22:55 PM

    69bossnine
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Uggghhhhhh........

    Thanks, I had no idea how an SMG operates (sarcasm), nor did I realize how a microwave worked (I thought there was a little mouse in there that farted on your food 'till it was toasty..)

    I spent an entire day with access to a number of hotter new cars at the Dunnville Autodrome in Canada. One was a new M3 SMG. I went in with an inquisitive and open mind (I've got quite a variety of cars, I'm the last person on this board that you can peg as a narrow-minded), and I thought it blew absolute chunks. It was slow, and I mean sssslow shifting, compared to what I was expecting. If that's what some consider "fast shifting", then man, by all means, you probably do need that SMG, or DSG, or F1, or any other acronym that stands for a gearbox that does the footwork for you automatically. I do, however, hear that Ferrari's shift far faster. As for the M3's SMG, I can shift faster than that setup with a big-gulp between my legs, and a breakfast burrito in one hand, steering with my knee.

    My frustration is that you make the assumption that the word "automatic" can ONLY be associated with a transmission that utilizes a torque converter and a vacuum or electronically triggered valve body, just as you assume that the word "oven" only applies to certain appliances, when in fact, it's definition includes microwaves. The differing manners in which they heat things up is totally irrelevant to the word "oven".

    Regardless of how the wizard changes the gears behind the black curtain, whether there's a torque converter, or there's clutches, or dilythium crystals..... from the driver's seat, if you take all of the rev-matching, and physical timing/coordination of upshifts and clutching between hand and foot, and throw it out of the driving experience, replacing it with machinery that automates it for you at the push of a button or pull of a lever, then, there's nothing more to debate here. This debate is more semantics than substance.

    By my definition, if you've got a traditional 6-speed manual car, and you teach a goat to sit in your lap and execute deftly smooth and quick gear changes, by poking him in the ribs for an upshift, and in the belly for a downshift, you've got yourself an AUTOMATICALLY SHIFTING CAR, via a superbly trained goat.

    With SMG, you've got an automatically shifting car, only instead of carrying a bag of goat feed in the back seat, you're allowing technology mated with machinery to accomplish your shifting for you. Telling it to upshift or downshift with flips of a lever does not equate to depressing the clutch with your left foot, moving to a higher gear with your right hand, and matching proper revs and then engaging the gear, all in pure driver-accomplished manual harmony. You're just popping a lever, and "presto-chango", any monkey could do it.

    Pontiac has been applying the paddles to fluid-drive automatics for years, and now the Corvette has it. The machinery is different, but the driving process is IDENTICAL. How do you explain to a kid that's just learning to drive, after teaching them to drive a paddle-shift Pontiac, and then a paddle-shift BMW, "Uhhh, sonny, that one car is an automatic, but this BMW is SMG". He'll reply, "What's SMG, is that German for "automatic""??

    You can hide behind an army of acronyms and play the denial game until you're blue, but the car is AUTOMATICALLY accomplishing the gear change for you, the moment you order it to by virtue of the flip of a lever. All you do is pull a lever, that sends a little electrical signal.

    How different is that, from my 1967 A/FX Mustang Tour de France race car, running a C6 automatic with a manual valve body? Manual valve body means the car will not shift gears by itself, you've got to work the lever. "1" for 1st, "2" for 2nd, and "D" for 3rd.

    If I give it an acronym, like "MVD", does it miraculously cease to be an automatic??

    Dec 22, 2005 8:27:25 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    "I know when I started out driving a manual car; I was scared out of my mind. I felt like I had no control with so much more to do."

    Nothing to add.
    Stick to F1 gearbox mate, glad you found something you like.

    Dec 22, 2005 8:34:52 PM

    OCEAN
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    There are people who do not believe the F1 takes any of the control away . There have been many people who said they wanted 6-speed on their 430's and after they drove the F1 changed their mind and now say they were wrong about what they thought about the F1 , and bought an F1 430 over the 6 speed after driving it . I see all these post with people knocking this technology and they have not driven a car with it .

    69bossnine I think if you drove the new 430 w/f1 you may understand why it is so popular , It is too bad it is not a car that you can go into your dealer and test drive . I have been driving my neighbors , this is what got me wanting a 430 and his has the paddle .... after driving it the first thing I thought was I wonder how long it will be before Porsche has this on the Turbo ..... I do not think it would be something for the 997S but for a 997TT with 500+ hp this option seems like something that many would want , especially if you are tracking the car .

    Dec 22, 2005 9:00:00 PM

    69bossnine
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    OCEAN said:
    There are people who do not believe the F1 takes any of the control away . There have been many people who said they wanted 6-speed on their 430's and after they drove the F1 changed their mind and now say they were wrong about what they thought about the F1 , and bought an F1 430 over the 6 speed after driving it . I see all these post with people knocking this technology and they have not driven a car with it .

    69bossnine I think if you drove the new 430 w/f1 you may understand why it is so popular , It is too bad it is not a car that you can go into your dealer and test drive . I have been driving my neighbors , this is what got me wanting a 430 and his has the paddle .... after driving it the first thing I thought was I wonder how long it will be before Porsche has this on the Turbo ..... I do not think it would be something for the 997S but for a 997TT with 500+ hp this option seems like something that many would want , especially if you are tracking the car .



    Hey, there's an ass for every seat, and people will sway every-which way. Sure, in theory, I could test-drive an F1 430 and think it's the best thing since sliced bread.... But I would never try to justify it to myself by glorifying it as a manual box. It's not. It's a manual box operated by robot.. You gain advantages, but you pay the price of a total DIVORCE from the old skills of clutching/shifting. That "price" means more to some than it does others, hence the people who switch over to F1, and the others who try it, and really don't like it at all.

    When I have alot of horsepower under me, there's something invigorating about me, myself, feeding 300, 400, 500+ horsepower from the engine, to the tires, to the road, with my left foot and right foot holding sway over all that power. F1 boxes takes away a portion of that sway, and automates it for my convenience/amusement.

    That's not an unfair "dig" at the system, that's just fact. I've always been fairly proud of my abilities with a stick-shift. I've been a competitive drag racer rowing a manual against far more consistent automatics. My friends all brag on how slick I tickle the gates during regular driving. It's a source of pride, for me. Maybe not for everybody, but for me. So I like driving my "enthusiast" cars manually, when I can.

    Everybody is welcome to F1 themselves silly, and that's fine. But there will always be those of us who prefer the TOTAL control of the true manual.

    Where I got all wound-up, is the notion that an SMG doesn't take anything away from the driving experience. IT DOES, and it balances that with certain benefits. Benefits that don't mean anything to me. That's why I got so defensive, that's all.

    Dec 22, 2005 9:05:32 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Well said, Boss

    Dec 22, 2005 9:23:08 PM

    OCEAN
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    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    69bossnine I agree but after driving the 430 with F1 I felt like it was right for that car . I think it would be the same if you drove an Enzo ( I have never driven the Enzo) but some cars that are at that level . For example the new Enzo FXX Ferrari puts the paddle in that car becuase it is right for that car , could you really imagine having that car with a 6 speed ? This new breed of race-cars really (they just happen to be street legal) seem to lend themselves to this technology . I think that is why so many formula one cars are now paddle . After driving the 430 with the paddle it almost seemed old school to think of that car with a 6-speed . Just seems like an option that some people are going to want .

    Dec 22, 2005 9:37:58 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: OCEAN

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    OCEAN said:
    69bossnine I agree but after driving the 430 with F1 I felt like it was right for that car . I think it would be the same if you drove an Enzo ( I have never driven the Enzo) but some cars that are at that level . For example the new Enzo FXX Ferrari puts the paddle in that car becuase it is right for that car , could you really imagine having that car with a 6 speed ? This new breed of race-cars really (they just happen to be street legal) seem to lend themselves to this technology . I think that is why so many formula one cars are now paddle . After driving the 430 with the paddle it almost seemed old school to think of that car with a 6-speed . Just seems like an option that some people are going to want .



    It's cool, no doubt about it. It's just that some of us don't like it. Sure, it might shift faster and look cooler, but I enjoy it more when rowing the stick (no jokes please) by hand. Whenever I drive the E55 I have the option of manual shifting. Does that make the car a manual, with better control over it?

    Dec 22, 2005 9:38:42 PM

    fritz
    Rennteam VIP
    fritz
    Loc: BaWü , Germany
    Posts: 10248, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 23, 2003
    Reply to: OCEAN

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    OCEAN said:
    There are people who do not believe the F1 takes any of the control away.


    Yes. I guess they'll be the people who have not yet had the pleasure of having to reverse an F1-tranny car uphill through a narrow gap where good clutch control is called for.

    Quote:
    OCEAN said:
    I see all these post with people knocking this technology and they have not driven a car with it .



    I have driven a couple of different model-year F360s with F1 transmissions and I was still inclined to knock them after the experience, mainly due to the lack of clutch control. Don't know if the F430 generation is that much better in that respect.
    I admit I have not driven a stick-shift F360 to compare it, but after experiencing the agricultural tractor tranny of the stick-shift Gallardo I suspect that I understand the reason for the 90% take-up of the F1-type trannies for these 2 models.

    Dec 22, 2005 9:41:09 PM

    Grant
    Rennteam VIP
    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
    Posts: 12586, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 21, 2002
    Reply to: OCEAN

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    OCEAN said:
    For example the new Enzo FXX Ferrari puts the paddle in that car becuase it is right for that car , could you really imagine having that car with a 6 speed ? ... I think that is why so many formula one cars are now paddle .


    Yes, I can imagine an Enzo or FXX w/o F1 tranny (just like CGT is 6spd). All F1 cars are paddle now, but they're about to be removed from the sport (I think after this next season). What will be the selling point then from companies like Ferrari and BMW? They won't call them "F1" trannies anymore will they?

    Dec 22, 2005 9:54:40 PM

    OCEAN
    Expert
    OCEAN
    Loc: US
    Posts: 1334, Gallery
    Registered on: Sep 28, 2004
    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    Don't know if the F430 generation is that much better in that respect.

    From what I have heard from people who have had both the 430 F1 is a huge improvement over the 360 representing 5 years of advances over the old one .

    Dec 22, 2005 9:55:13 PM

    69bossnine
    Rennteam Pro
    69bossnine
    Loc: FL, USA , United States
    Posts: 2028, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 27, 2005
    Reply to: OCEAN

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    The street car market did not bring this technology to racing. Racing brought this technology to the street. People always want what the racers are racing with. The problem is, when racers start using stuff that makes them go faster by taking the human-error aspect out of the equation, I feel that the public will eventually reach a point where they say, "hey, I realize this is the fastest way to go, but I'm not driving anymore, I'm just a passenger". F1 tranny technology doesn't push folks over the edge, but it is a step in the direction of removing the driver from aspects of actual driving, in order to eliminate the human limitations, and optimize performance by automating it (yes, I used the dreaded "automating" word). These types of "evolutions" tend to ebb and flow, because things tend to go overboard, and people divert/revolt into other directions. There have been THOUSANDS of "next big things" in the automotive industry over the past 100 years. FUNNY, ISN'T IT, that cars still primarily operate the same as they did 100 years ago, DESPITE all of the revolutionary advances? C'mon, the automatic tranny was made widely available over 50 YEARS ago, and everybody then said, "manual trannies are dead". Well, they aren't yet, and they won't be any too soon, I'll bet ya.

    Oh yeah, yes, I can imagine a 6-speed in an Enzo, no problem. You guys are being brainwashed by the manufacturer product czars!!!

    Dec 22, 2005 10:35:17 PM

    igzaklee
    Senior
    igzaklee
    Loc: BH , United States
    Posts: 797, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 16, 2003
    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:You guys are being brainwashed by the manufacturer product czars!!!




    ...well, this is a PORSCHE-dominated forum is it not??

    Dec 22, 2005 10:37:00 PM

    igzaklee
    Senior
    igzaklee
    Loc: BH , United States
    Posts: 797, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 16, 2003
    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:I enjoy it more when rowing the stick by hand.



    Dec 22, 2005 10:48:41 PM

    Bennett
    Newbie
    Bennett
    Loc: California, USA
    Posts: 42, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 23, 2005
    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Uggghhhhhh........

    Thanks, I had no idea how an SMG operates (sarcasm), nor did I realize how a microwave worked (I thought there was a little mouse in there that farted on your food 'till it was toasty..)

    I spent an entire day with access to a number of hotter new cars at the Dunnville Autodrome in Canada. One was a new M3 SMG. I went in with an inquisitive and open mind (I've got quite a variety of cars, I'm the last person on this board that you can peg as a narrow-minded), and I thought it blew absolute chunks. It was slow, and I mean sssslow shifting, compared to what I was expecting. If that's what some consider "fast shifting", then man, by all means, you probably do need that SMG, or DSG, or F1, or any other acronym that stands for a gearbox that does the footwork for you automatically. I do, however, hear that Ferrari's shift far faster. As for the M3's SMG, I can shift faster than that setup with a big-gulp between my legs, and a breakfast burrito in one hand, steering with my knee.

    My frustration is that you make the assumption that the word "automatic" can ONLY be associated with a transmission that utilizes a torque converter and a vacuum or electronically triggered valve body, just as you assume that the word "oven" only applies to certain appliances, when in fact, it's definition includes microwaves. The differing manners in which they heat things up is totally irrelevant to the word "oven".

    Regardless of how the wizard changes the gears behind the black curtain, whether there's a torque converter, or there's clutches, or dilythium crystals..... from the driver's seat, if you take all of the rev-matching, and physical timing/coordination of upshifts and clutching between hand and foot, and throw it out of the driving experience, replacing it with machinery that automates it for you at the push of a button or pull of a lever, then, there's nothing more to debate here. This debate is more semantics than substance.

    By my definition, if you've got a traditional 6-speed manual car, and you teach a goat to sit in your lap and execute deftly smooth and quick gear changes, by poking him in the ribs for an upshift, and in the belly for a downshift, you've got yourself an AUTOMATICALLY SHIFTING CAR, via a superbly trained goat.

    With SMG, you've got an automatically shifting car, only instead of carrying a bag of goat feed in the back seat, you're allowing technology mated with machinery to accomplish your shifting for you. Telling it to upshift or downshift with flips of a lever does not equate to depressing the clutch with your left foot, moving to a higher gear with your right hand, and matching proper revs and then engaging the gear, all in pure driver-accomplished manual harmony. You're just popping a lever, and "presto-chango", any monkey could do it.

    Pontiac has been applying the paddles to fluid-drive automatics for years, and now the Corvette has it. The machinery is different, but the driving process is IDENTICAL. How do you explain to a kid that's just learning to drive, after teaching them to drive a paddle-shift Pontiac, and then a paddle-shift BMW, "Uhhh, sonny, that one car is an automatic, but this BMW is SMG". He'll reply, "What's SMG, is that German for "automatic""??

    You can hide behind an army of acronyms and play the denial game until you're blue, but the car is AUTOMATICALLY accomplishing the gear change for you, the moment you order it to by virtue of the flip of a lever. All you do is pull a lever, that sends a little electrical signal.

    How different is that, from my 1967 A/FX Mustang Tour de France race car, running a C6 automatic with a manual valve body? Manual valve body means the car will not shift gears by itself, you've got to work the lever. "1" for 1st, "2" for 2nd, and "D" for 3rd.

    If I give it an acronym, like "MVD", does it miraculously cease to be an automatic??



    I'm having a problem finding where I said SMG was a manual transmission. I said it was closer to a manual in terms of mechanical design, but that's it. I completely understand that SMG is automated, requiring you to simply push a button to shift, foregoing the clutch and stick. This is how I see it. Manual transmissions are great, don't get me wrong. I used to have a manual 996 C4S but after driving the M5, I feel like manuals are simply inferior. From a performance standpoint they offer no benefits. Don't hit me the comment about how you don't care about performance in a road car as you have track cars for that. I read this forum constantly and a lot of discussion focuses on how much HP new cars are going to have and how fast are they going to get from 0-60. Considering this is so important, I don't see why there isn't a larger support for this technology which makes the car faster. Isn't that a huge criteria in sports cars? fast acceleration? I'm doubting the Lotus Elise would be fun with 85hp or only two gears. I'm a member at M5board and everyone there was pissed when the M5 came out with only SMG. Now look at the board and almost everyone who has the M5 loves SMG. Whenever a new technology rolls around, there are always people who say that it was better the way things were. There is always resistance to change. I guess that's the same with SMG.

    p.s. I've come to the conclusion that nothing I say is going to sway your opinion on the matter.


    Quote:
    69bossnine said:"I know when I started out driving a manual car; I was scared out of my mind. I felt like I had no control with so much more to do."

    Nothing to add.
    Stick to F1 gearbox mate, glad you found something you like.



    Don't think that I can't drive a manual car as that wasn't the point of my remark above. Maybe it was just me then but when I first started driving a manual car, I felt overwhelmed with the getting the clutch right, shifting gears and watching the revs, on top of everything else. It took me a little while to become proficient with a manual transmission and the same goes for SMG, just not as long. Did everyone else just hop in a manual car for the first time and never stall or need practice?

    Dec 22, 2005 10:50:31 PM

    fritz
    Rennteam VIP
    fritz
    Loc: BaWü , Germany
    Posts: 10248, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 23, 2003
    Reply to: igzaklee

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    igzaklee said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:You guys are being brainwashed by the manufacturer product czars!!!




    ...well, this is a PORSCHE-dominated forum is it not??





    I think that 69bossnine was referring to the Ferrari product czars? No?

    Dec 22, 2005 11:18:00 PM

    Lewmar
    Newbie
    Lewmar
    Loc: Los Angeles
    Posts: 12, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 15, 2005
    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    I've driven the SMG on a 545, the DSG on a TT, the F1 on an F360 (I admit very briefly), and the, well the automatic on a CL55AMG.

    I'll take the clutch every time. I'm sure that with experience you become more proficient at pushing the buttons than I did in a 20 minute test drive, and with time you forget the feeling of control that comes from a clutch, but it just left me...emotionless.

    I found it hard to find the paddles when cornering, and during straight line acceleration, while it was fun to pump the handles and ask for shifts, I felt like pavlov's dog. (if I ring the bell, will I get another shift?). DSG was by far the smoothest, and it can shift quicker than me, but you get a feeling that the car knows better than you when to shift, so the paddles are there just to humor you. I swear the Audi flat out ignored me a couple of times and held a gear 5 seconds after I hit the paddle.
    Somehow just mashing your foot to the floor and waiting for the speed to increase doesn't create the same impression of speed as one gets rowing through the gears with a clutch.

    I'm no Ayrton Senna and my driving skills probably leave a lot to be desired next to many Ferrari drivers, but in this age of speed cameras I find that cornering is one of the last pleasures of driving on public roads. I think that the feeling that you are conducting the symphony eminating from behind your head as you rev match and ease the power into the rear wheels with your left foot is a great way to enjoy a Porsche.

    If you enjoy automatics, more power to you. I'm not homophobic; to each his own.

    Dec 23, 2005 3:17:01 AM

    AS
    Co-Pilot
    AS
    Loc:
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    Registered on: Aug 1, 2004
    Reply to: Lewmar

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    most members of this board are prob aware of the pros & cons of manuals/semi-autos. simply put, i think all will agree that manuals are more engaging but slightly slower; semi-autos on the other hand, are faster but more clinical.

    those living in crowded cities will obviously hv diff requirements fm those w/twisty roads at their doorstep (you won't be doing much heel/toeing in NYC grid + traffic). likewise, those who only use their cars for competitive racing will prob lean towards whatever performs best. each to his/her own... no point polarizing this topic.

    as for 'bad analogies' - does power steering not assist steering in the same manner semi-autos assist gear changes (you'd still hv to hit up/downshift btns b/f anything happens)? does ABS not assist braking? you could try to replicate that w/yr foot of course. & don't forget PSM... the biggest nanny of all... attempts to keep the entire car fm doing what it wants to do. how are these analogies bad or irrelvant?!

    Dec 23, 2005 3:51:44 AM

    Rapture
    Newbie
    Rapture
    Loc: Milwaukee, WI
    Posts: 10, Gallery
    Registered on: May 14, 2005
    Reply to: AS

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    I've posted on this topic before, and I have not owned a car with real "SMG" technology, however I think that involvement with the machine (car) does not have to include your left leg, not that using a leg operated clutch is a bad thing, just that maybe there is an alternative that works, and is still an involving experience.

    Dec 23, 2005 4:28:45 AM

    Grant
    Rennteam VIP
    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
    Posts: 12586, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 21, 2002
    Reply to: AS

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    Quote:
    AS said:as for 'bad analogies' - does power steering not assist steering in the same manner semi-autos assist gear changes (you'd still hv to hit up/downshift btns b/f anything happens)? does ABS not assist braking? you could try to replicate that w/yr foot of course. & don't forget PSM... the biggest nanny of all... attempts to keep the entire car fm doing what it wants to do. how are these analogies bad or irrelvant?!


    You're mostly right (analogy isn't perfect), but it's a matter of degree. The best driving experiences of my life have come in cars with none of the above driver aides...

    Dec 23, 2005 6:22:06 AM

    Hurst
    Veteran
    Hurst
    Loc: Potomac, MD
    Posts: 1255, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 15, 2005
    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Paddle shift on 997TT

    It is most definitely a matter of degrees. ABS is an issue of safety. Try slowing down a fast car without ABS. If you've never done it, good luck, I'll see you in the afterlife.

    On the other hand, powersteering is more of an amenity for issues such as parking (wow it is a PAIN to park without power steering)

    I think F1/SMG is something in the middle of the two. I guess you could say its a safety issue, because any clot can match the revs without jerking/stalling/blowing the engine ("wait I thought that was 4th gear not second...SHEIZAH!"), however, a little bit of the FUN in driving is that connectivity one has with the car.

    If I'm not connected to my car, then I might as well be playing Playstation?

    I've tried the SMG in the M3 and the new M5 and have to say that its impressive (although my mechanic friend at BMW is telling me that a lot of the e90 M5 trannies are cataclysmically failing, word to the wise first production model owners). Nevertheless, it really isn't for me.


    notta benna: issues of performance as a result of the F1 shifters is bollocks. I have no problem with the F1 in the CS of a F430, but for the 97% of the urban yupps who stroll around in it, don't give me that argument.
     
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