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C4S Co-Driver said:
I've been driving the new M5 with SMG for the last three days and while I was initially hesitant, I'm really starting to like it. Those who complain that it isn't involving enough or come up with other excuses simply haven't given it enough of a chance or aren't using it correctly. SMG gives you more control over your car than you have with a manual, that's right! Shifts are extremely precise/fast, misshifting does not happen and you just have to listen to the beautiful sound it makes as it rev matches on down shifts. Now I know a lot of you are going to come at me with the argument of how satisfying/involving it is to perfectly heel toe downshift and row your own gears, which is very satisfying no doubt, but SMG is simply better. Paddle shifters don't make the drive less involving, rather they allow you to pay more attention to your line and brake points and less about shifting. Many of you complain about how bad paddle shifting transmissions are but love it when other new technologies come along which improve performance in other areas. Manual transmissions are great but like drum brakes, they're past their prime. I'm sorry to say it but paddle shifters are here to stay and for good reason.
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C4S Co-Driver said:
I've been driving the new M5 with SMG for the last three days and while I was initially hesitant, I'm really starting to like it. Those who complain that it isn't involving enough or come up with other excuses simply haven't given it enough of a chance or aren't using it correctly. SMG gives you more control over your car than you have with a manual, that's right! Shifts are extremely precise/fast, misshifting does not happen and you just have to listen to the beautiful sound it makes as it rev matches on down shifts. Now I know a lot of you are going to come at me with the argument of how satisfying/involving it is to perfectly heel toe downshift and row your own gears, which is very satisfying no doubt, but SMG is simply better. Paddle shifters don't make the drive less involving, rather they allow you to pay more attention to your line and brake points and less about shifting. Many of you complain about how bad paddle shifting transmissions are but love it when other new technologies come along which improve performance in other areas. Manual transmissions are great but like drum brakes, they're past their prime. I'm sorry to say it but paddle shifters are here to stay and for good reason.
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AS said:Quote:
69bossnine said:
I've never had a problem with one hand on the wheel, the other shifting, driving like a maniac or otherwise. I've tried it, I have no affinity for it.
I didn't realize driving fast was so difficult, you needed a nanny-tranny to accomplish it.
same could be said of power steering, ABS, PSM, PASM, or basically any bit of modern car technology (incl. power seats/windows). fact is - if it'll shave 0.3secs off 0-60 (all the way thru 180+mph), am afraid these transmissions are the way of the future.
& btw, i too very much enjoy manuals.
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AS said:
i've got SMG, driven F1 gearbox (Quattroporte, F360, Scagletti), as well as DSG (VW Golf gti). DSG beats 'em all. you should go try it.
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Crash said:Quote:
AS said:Quote:
69bossnine said:
I've never had a problem with one hand on the wheel, the other shifting, driving like a maniac or otherwise. I've tried it, I have no affinity for it.
I didn't realize driving fast was so difficult, you needed a nanny-tranny to accomplish it.
same could be said of power steering, ABS, PSM, PASM, or basically any bit of modern car technology (incl. power seats/windows). fact is - if it'll shave 0.3secs off 0-60 (all the way thru 180+mph), am afraid these transmissions are the way of the future.
& btw, i too very much enjoy manuals.
Power steering is something I don't need.
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Fanch said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
AS said:Quote:
69bossnine said:
I've never had a problem with one hand on the wheel, the other shifting, driving like a maniac or otherwise. I've tried it, I have no affinity for it.
I didn't realize driving fast was so difficult, you needed a nanny-tranny to accomplish it.
same could be said of power steering, ABS, PSM, PASM, or basically any bit of modern car technology (incl. power seats/windows). fact is - if it'll shave 0.3secs off 0-60 (all the way thru 180+mph), am afraid these transmissions are the way of the future.
& btw, i too very much enjoy manuals.
Power steering is something I don't need.
I don't think I could handle a car without power steering for everyday driving.
It's the one option that really makes people's driving easier in normal traffic.
I parked an F40 once, yes, just parked, my arms were tired!
Do you drive a lot of cars without power steering Crash?
Dec 22, 2005 4:15:14 PM
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Fanch said:
I find it very jerky, as a passenger in the Beemer and as a driver in the Maser and that was in Auto mode. It's better at high speed and also in auto sport mode but there's no doubt in my mind that the F1 gearbox (let's call it like this for argument's sake) was designed to be used at high rpms for spirited driving, and only then, is is actually fun.
Now one solution for town driving would then be to drive it in manual mode as at low rpm, you release the throttle to allow for a smooth greashift, but then, you hit another problem, as a driver, you cannot control the clutch slippage between the racks!
With a normal clutch pedal, you can modulate via the pedal how much friction you put on the clutch, now an F1, it's either on or off and hence, jerky! Damn!
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69bossnine said:If you like the F1 style gearboxes, then that's fine. But can't we all be honest with ourselves? Don't pretend that it doesn't take away an aspect of driving, WHEN IT DOES. Funny how everybody can talk about how lame an automatic tranny is, but HEY..if you toss out the torque converter, add clutches, a robot to engage them, and put the shifters up by the steering wheel, and then use all this stuff in race cars...OH BOY, now it's COOL!!!! But I hate to burst your boyish bubbles, it's just automatic shifting, using a different method, that's all... Admit it. Otherwise it's like saying that a microwave isn't really an oven, because it doesn't get hot. F1 trannies are more involving than a fluid-drive auto, but to say it's MORE involving than manual, because now you can pay more attention to other things?? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. That's not more involving, that's just making it EASIER for you to concentrate on steering. I'm all for things being a bit easier, when it comes to driving. Trust me, it's a hell of alot easier to go fast in my 997S than it is to go fast in my old cars. Technology is good. But whether the car was built in 1965, or 2005, certain things remain constants. You control the car, you are the hub, through which all control flows. You have the same "elements".
Dec 22, 2005 8:22:55 PM
Dec 22, 2005 9:00:00 PM
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OCEAN said:
There are people who do not believe the F1 takes any of the control away . There have been many people who said they wanted 6-speed on their 430's and after they drove the F1 changed their mind and now say they were wrong about what they thought about the F1 , and bought an F1 430 over the 6 speed after driving it . I see all these post with people knocking this technology and they have not driven a car with it .
69bossnine I think if you drove the new 430 w/f1 you may understand why it is so popular , It is too bad it is not a car that you can go into your dealer and test drive . I have been driving my neighbors , this is what got me wanting a 430 and his has the paddle .... after driving it the first thing I thought was I wonder how long it will be before Porsche has this on the Turbo ..... I do not think it would be something for the 997S but for a 997TT with 500+ hp this option seems like something that many would want , especially if you are tracking the car .
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OCEAN said:
69bossnine I agree but after driving the 430 with F1 I felt like it was right for that car . I think it would be the same if you drove an Enzo ( I have never driven the Enzo) but some cars that are at that level . For example the new Enzo FXX Ferrari puts the paddle in that car becuase it is right for that car , could you really imagine having that car with a 6 speed ? This new breed of race-cars really (they just happen to be street legal) seem to lend themselves to this technology . I think that is why so many formula one cars are now paddle . After driving the 430 with the paddle it almost seemed old school to think of that car with a 6-speed . Just seems like an option that some people are going to want .
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OCEAN said:
There are people who do not believe the F1 takes any of the control away.
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OCEAN said:
I see all these post with people knocking this technology and they have not driven a car with it .
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OCEAN said:
For example the new Enzo FXX Ferrari puts the paddle in that car becuase it is right for that car , could you really imagine having that car with a 6 speed ? ... I think that is why so many formula one cars are now paddle .
Dec 22, 2005 9:55:13 PM
Dec 22, 2005 10:35:17 PM
Dec 22, 2005 10:48:41 PM
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69bossnine said:
Uggghhhhhh........
Thanks, I had no idea how an SMG operates (sarcasm), nor did I realize how a microwave worked (I thought there was a little mouse in there that farted on your food 'till it was toasty..)
I spent an entire day with access to a number of hotter new cars at the Dunnville Autodrome in Canada. One was a new M3 SMG. I went in with an inquisitive and open mind (I've got quite a variety of cars, I'm the last person on this board that you can peg as a narrow-minded), and I thought it blew absolute chunks. It was slow, and I mean sssslow shifting, compared to what I was expecting. If that's what some consider "fast shifting", then man, by all means, you probably do need that SMG, or DSG, or F1, or any other acronym that stands for a gearbox that does the footwork for you automatically. I do, however, hear that Ferrari's shift far faster. As for the M3's SMG, I can shift faster than that setup with a big-gulp between my legs, and a breakfast burrito in one hand, steering with my knee.
My frustration is that you make the assumption that the word "automatic" can ONLY be associated with a transmission that utilizes a torque converter and a vacuum or electronically triggered valve body, just as you assume that the word "oven" only applies to certain appliances, when in fact, it's definition includes microwaves. The differing manners in which they heat things up is totally irrelevant to the word "oven".
Regardless of how the wizard changes the gears behind the black curtain, whether there's a torque converter, or there's clutches, or dilythium crystals..... from the driver's seat, if you take all of the rev-matching, and physical timing/coordination of upshifts and clutching between hand and foot, and throw it out of the driving experience, replacing it with machinery that automates it for you at the push of a button or pull of a lever, then, there's nothing more to debate here. This debate is more semantics than substance.
By my definition, if you've got a traditional 6-speed manual car, and you teach a goat to sit in your lap and execute deftly smooth and quick gear changes, by poking him in the ribs for an upshift, and in the belly for a downshift, you've got yourself an AUTOMATICALLY SHIFTING CAR, via a superbly trained goat.
With SMG, you've got an automatically shifting car, only instead of carrying a bag of goat feed in the back seat, you're allowing technology mated with machinery to accomplish your shifting for you. Telling it to upshift or downshift with flips of a lever does not equate to depressing the clutch with your left foot, moving to a higher gear with your right hand, and matching proper revs and then engaging the gear, all in pure driver-accomplished manual harmony. You're just popping a lever, and "presto-chango", any monkey could do it.
Pontiac has been applying the paddles to fluid-drive automatics for years, and now the Corvette has it. The machinery is different, but the driving process is IDENTICAL. How do you explain to a kid that's just learning to drive, after teaching them to drive a paddle-shift Pontiac, and then a paddle-shift BMW, "Uhhh, sonny, that one car is an automatic, but this BMW is SMG". He'll reply, "What's SMG, is that German for "automatic""??
You can hide behind an army of acronyms and play the denial game until you're blue, but the car is AUTOMATICALLY accomplishing the gear change for you, the moment you order it to by virtue of the flip of a lever. All you do is pull a lever, that sends a little electrical signal.
How different is that, from my 1967 A/FX Mustang Tour de France race car, running a C6 automatic with a manual valve body? Manual valve body means the car will not shift gears by itself, you've got to work the lever. "1" for 1st, "2" for 2nd, and "D" for 3rd.
If I give it an acronym, like "MVD", does it miraculously cease to be an automatic??
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69bossnine said:"I know when I started out driving a manual car; I was scared out of my mind. I felt like I had no control with so much more to do."
Nothing to add.
Stick to F1 gearbox mate, glad you found something you like.
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AS said:as for 'bad analogies' - does power steering not assist steering in the same manner semi-autos assist gear changes (you'd still hv to hit up/downshift btns b/f anything happens)? does ABS not assist braking? you could try to replicate that w/yr foot of course. & don't forget PSM... the biggest nanny of all... attempts to keep the entire car fm doing what it wants to do. how are these analogies bad or irrelvant?!