Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Ringtime of the F430 - Page3

Dec 20, 2005 1:49:49 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
nberry said:What is at work here is Saurma not knowing how to drive a Ferrari and his inward bias of Porsche. He knows Porsche's and can handle them.

Carlos, the 430 is a dog and why don't we leave it at that. Porsche's rule the Ring and the sport car world. We poor 430 owners will drive around with a bag over our heads in shame.

Nick, Nick, Nick... we weren't comparing the F430 to a Porsche, thats your Porsche-obsesive mind playing tricks on you

We are comparing the lap times to the Lambo, are you saying Saurma has more experience with Lamborgini than Ferrari

The Gallardo on regular street tires beat the F430 not only on the Nring but also on Hickenheim, I find that disapointing since the Gallardo is a Lambo and is older car. I expected the Ferrari to beat it at the track... well not even with R-compound tires on so there is no doubt about who is fastest.

The 997TT hasen't even set foot yet, but when it does...

Quote:
nberry said:
Carlos, the 430 is a dog and why don't we leave it at that. Porsche's rule the Ring and the sport car world. We poor 430 owners will drive around with a bag over our heads in shame.

Don't punish yourself so hard Nick

Seriously, lets not loose track here, we are strickly comparing Nring performance. There is much more to the car that this. These is looks, price, acceleration, resale, ect. The Nring performance is a reflection of the performance and handling on the real world roads of the car but thats only a part of the whole package that makes a car. Just because so and so car is slower on the ring than another car doesn't not make that car inherently inferior than the other, just in that aspect.

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Dec 20, 2005 3:06:18 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
We are comparing the lap times to the Lambo, are you saying Saurma has more experience with Lamborgini than Ferrari
The Gallardo on regular street tires beat the F430 not only on the Nring but also on Hickenheim, I find that disapointing since the Gallardo is a Lambo and is older car. I expected the Ferrari to beat it at the track... well not even with R-compound tires on so there is no doubt about who is fastest.

Just two thoughts:
1) Saumra might benefit from the Lambo's AWD.
2) The Supertest-Lambo is said to have more than 520 hp.

BTW, "Hickenheim" was a good one.

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Dec 20, 2005 4:00:14 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Fanch, I have driven the Stradale several times (once at 170mph). No doubt it has more of a rawness to it than the 430. However, if we accept Saurma's drive times, wasn't he faster around the Ring in the 430 than the 360 CS?

Your suggestion regarding a factory driver from Ferrari doing the Ring is a good one. But please keep in mind that the Ring typically favors German manufacturers. They cut their teeth on the Ring and their high performance cars are developed with the Ring in mind.

Finally, you are correct that if one's criteria for a car is strictly performance then the Ferrari will not stand up to some of the competition. Porsche is the car except for the Z06. However, if you want the total package you cannot beat a Ferrari. What makes the car so good is you do not have to be racing it to appreciate its racing heritage and qualities. Its sexy styling, F1 sound and race car feel cannot be matched by any other car. Just about every writer who has driven the 430 has confirmed this.

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Dec 20, 2005 4:36:42 PM

rosso nuvola: Pilot; Loc: Switzerland; Posts: 338, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ringtime of the F430

There is no way you will see a Ferrari doing the best time if its tested by a German car magazine , i know , i live in Switzerland and i some times buy them to see their tires tests, and they are by far the most biased of all european press!
Every european car manufacturer tests their cars on this tracks even Ferrari and Maserati test their pre-production prototypes cars on this tracks.

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Dec 20, 2005 8:05:15 PM

dg911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 104, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 26, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Hmmm... 19* Celcius track temperature... then the temp was not the problem. The R-compound Corsa tires gave it plenty of grip as it showed in the grip related ski-pad, braking and slalom numbers but it failed in the handling.

Beaten by the Gallardo in regular street tires on both types of tracks, and the 997TT Turbo hasen't set foot on the streets yet... frankly I'm disappointed, have they made it too GT-ish?

Hmmm... the 19C temperature reported is for the Hockenheim track, not for the Ring track, and I seriously doubt that they run on both tracks the same day (BTW the Hockenheim time was already reported in previous Sport auto issue). The fact that Hockenheim time is good and Ring time quite poor is in my opinion mainly due to differences in wheather conditions during these tests.

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Dec 20, 2005 8:20:46 PM

dg911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 104, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 26, 2004; Reply to: rosso nuvola

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
rosso nuvola said:
There is no way you will see a Ferrari doing the best time if its tested by a German car magazine , i know , i live in Switzerland and i some times buy them to see their tires tests, and they are by far the most biased of all european press!
.

Well I am not sure about that. German, French, Italian, UK press... they are all biased towards their local production. Obviously Swiss is the neutral country 'par excellence'... we should rely on your press for all these tests

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Dec 20, 2005 11:11:41 PM

rosso nuvola: Pilot; Loc: Switzerland; Posts: 338, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: dg911

Re: Ringtime of the F430

...naahh , better to read the Uk and French press.

At least they know a lot about cars ...

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Dec 21, 2005 7:45:11 AM

Jeff (in SF): Pilot; Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States; Posts: 340, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
nberry said:
Fanch, I have driven the Stradale several times (once at 170mph). No doubt it has more of a rawness to it than the 430. However, if we accept Saurma's drive times, wasn't he faster around the Ring in the 430 than the 360 CS?

Your suggestion regarding a factory driver from Ferrari doing the Ring is a good one. But please keep in mind that the Ring typically favors German manufacturers. They cut their teeth on the Ring and their high performance cars are developed with the Ring in mind.

Finally, you are correct that if one's criteria for a car is strictly performance then the Ferrari will not stand up to some of the competition. Porsche is the car except for the Z06. However, if you want the total package you cannot beat a Ferrari. What makes the car so good is you do not have to be racing it to appreciate its racing heritage and qualities. Its sexy styling, F1 sound and race car feel cannot be matched by any other car. Just about every writer who has driven the 430 has confirmed this.

You make "the Ring' sound like an oval track or something. If it were so, then developing for such a single minded purpose would explain why a mfg might do better than others since the car was specifically adapted for that purpose. HOWEVER, since the ring is over 14 miles long of straights, turns, ups and downs, I think it's fair to say that if your car does better at the Ring vs another car, then in the real world the advantage would also continue. Get over it, if Ferrari's were all conquering in their performance statistics, the factory wouldn't have an official policy of NOT providing test cars to the road magazines for comparison purposes. EVERY test comparison that you read about involving a Ferrari uses a car donated by a real world owner who doesn't have to obey Ferrari's press policies.

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Dec 21, 2005 8:10:17 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Jeff (in SF)

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:
You make "the Ring' sound like an oval track or something. If it were so, then developing for such a single minded purpose would explain why a mfg might do better than others since the car was specifically adapted for that purpose. HOWEVER, since the ring is over 14 miles long of straights, turns, ups and downs, I think it's fair to say that if your car does better at the Ring vs another car, then in the real world the advantage would also continue. Get over it, if Ferrari's were all conquering in their performance statistics, the factory wouldn't have an official policy of NOT providing test cars to the road magazines for comparison purposes. EVERY test comparison that you read about involving a Ferrari uses a car donated by a real world owner who doesn't have to obey Ferrari's press policies.

Well, OTOH you could say, that with every car that comes directly from the factory, there's something wrong, as they are specially prepared for those test...

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Dec 21, 2005 10:59:50 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
nberry said:
What makes the car so good is you do not have to be racing it to appreciate its racing heritage and qualities. Its sexy styling, F1 sound and race car feel cannot be matched by any other car. Just about every writer who has driven the 430 has confirmed this.

I agree 100% with the first part. What makes the car so good is how easy it is to exploit its potential.
However, it doesn't sound at all like an F1 car, more like a Maserati Gransport on Steroids, and it doubt it has a race car feel. The Stradale has, to a certain degree.
Get a ride in Challenge or a GT3 Cup and you'll see what I mean.
Finally about writers, you can't trust them Nick, this is why I trust Rennteam more. They're an indicator but hardly subjective.
No offense to them, but these guys' daily drives are cheap diesel cars and they get overwhelmed when driving cars like this. Which is why an owner's perspective is much better.

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Dec 21, 2005 11:04:31 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
Finally about writers, you can't trust them Nick, this is why I trust Rennteam more. They're an indicator but hardly subjective.
No offense to them, but these guys' daily drives are cheap diesel cars and they get overwhelmed when driving cars like this. Which is why an owner's perspective is much better.

good point. i've never really thought about it this way. but does explain a lot.

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Dec 21, 2005 11:13:10 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Ringtime of the F430

what wonders me most about sportauto's F430 ring time is the max speed at döttinger höhe -- 273 km/h. the 360 CS reached 271 km/h here, the 575 MM some speed around 280.

but the F430's measured acceleration times are a way better... so IMHO it should outpace the CS on the straight line more clearly than by 2 km/h.

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Dec 21, 2005 12:57:18 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
zzboba said:
what wonders me most about sportauto's F430 ring time is the max speed at döttinger höhe -- 273 km/h. the 360 CS reached 271 km/h here, the 575 MM some speed around 280.

but the F430's measured acceleration times are a way better... so IMHO it should outpace the CS on the straight line more clearly than 2 km/h.

Is it perhaps lacking in high speed acceleration? Referring to MKSGR's comment in the 997 Turbo and GT3 thread in the 997 section.

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Dec 21, 2005 12:59:32 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Ringtime of the F430

F430 gear speeds of the Supertest car:

79/120/160/203/250/316

gear speeds from the september AMS test:

77/120/159/199/243/316

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Dec 21, 2005 1:10:08 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
Finally about writers, you can't trust them Nick, this is why I trust Rennteam more. They're an indicator but hardly subjective.
No offense to them, but these guys' daily drives are cheap diesel cars and they get overwhelmed when driving cars like this. Which is why an owner's perspective is much better.

good point. i've never really thought about it this way. but does explain a lot.

I mentioned this several times, this one of the major reasons I don't trust reviews in car magazines too much. Not even positive Porsche reviews since they're sometimes too "hooray, what a great car" reviews without mentioning the little flaws I encounter each and every day in my cars.
If a car magazine wants to write a "good" review, they should invite owners along. This would help to get a better perspective of the whole product.

Regarding the Supertest in SPORT AUTO, well, this is a different story. Horst v. Saurma is a respected sportscar driver and professional race car driver with an international racing license and I doubt he privately drives a Diesel.

I actually never heard people criticizing him and what I love about this guy: he was the first who mentioned that dumb position of the seat memory buttons in the 997. The first and the last of all those great journalists.

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Dec 21, 2005 4:20:57 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
nberry said:
What makes the car so good is you do not have to be racing it to appreciate its racing heritage and qualities. Its sexy styling, F1 sound and race car feel cannot be matched by any other car. Just about every writer who has driven the 430 has confirmed this.

Finally about writers, you can't trust them Nick, this is why I trust Rennteam more. They're an indicator but hardly subjective.
No offense to them, but these guys' daily drives are cheap diesel cars and they get overwhelmed when driving cars like this. Which is why an owner's perspective is much better.

I am not sure I agree with this. If a writer has been testing automobiles of various types for several years, he/she would have a better perspective regarding the cars abilities vis-a-vis other vehicles. If anything I would argue they are better suited to judge than us and drivers like Saurma.

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Dec 21, 2005 10:45:45 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: rosso nuvola

Re: Ringtime of the F430

Quote:
rosso nuvola said:
...naahh , better to read the Uk and French press. At least they know a lot about cars ...

The UK: They know how to write (their articles are nice to read - much, much nicer than German test). But they don't know much about cars...

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Dec 22, 2005 12:24:14 AM

chili: Pilot; Loc: Bay Area - East Bay; Posts: 354, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2005; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Ringtime of the F430

I just like being seen in my car.....

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