Crown

Passionate response, but even if Porsche was listening, it may be too late for them to change power output at this stage?

Out of curiosity, when the 993 Turbo came out, was that deemed to be the flagship of the enterprise (save the 959)? Was there a GT2 before the 993 or was it introduced with it?

Also, can someone outline the basic technological changes from the 993-->996?

Quote:
Hurst said:

Out of curiosity, when the 993 Turbo came out, was that deemed to be the flagship of the enterprise (save the 959)? Was there a GT2 before the 993 or was it introduced with it?

The 993Turbo (specifically, the TTS) was a rocket, well-ahead of its time and no other production model car of its price and relative refinement could match it.

The 993C2 came out I think in 1993 (as a 1994 model) with coupe, cab, targa, then turbo (AWD) with C4S and C2S, and a lightweight RS version for racing. The GT2 I believe came out last in 1998 after the TT and TTS, it had the GT2 setup with RWD, 450HP, and a 0-60mph time of 3.7seconds (similar to the TTS).

Of course the major change from 993 to 996 was the change from air-cooled to water-cooled.

Boy, if the 997TT/TTS will be faster 0-60mph than was the 993TTS. . . .

RC, I think you expressed everyones feelings very eloquently.

I have been a Porsche owner since 1973 and have owned almost every model except for the 928.

Everybody recognizes that Porsche needs to make a healthy margin to stay in business, support its dealer network, develop new models and provide a happy return for its shareholders.

Why should anyone spend 110K plus USD on a 997S with a power kit when a 997GT3 will have a better engine and suspension for a few dollars more?(if the 996's GT3 pricing difference model holds) Why not just offer that engine in a non GT3 spec Carrera S and the M97 X51 engine in the standard Carrera?

Why do you deny US customers something as sports car basic as a limited slip differential? Do you think only uninformed and first time Porsche owners buy your cars in the US?

Will we the 997 Turbo be just "good enough" or spectacular?
At these prices and your margins, it should be spectacular
and not a mild evolutuion.

Believe it or not, you are in the Romance business, not the basic transportation basis. If you cant get love from your customers, you arent going to get their money, its that simple.

Is Porsche still a love story?

My money is waiting.

I'm almost wheeping because i only own a poor, underpowered 997S (which i was superproud off until now...)

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Is Porsche still a love story?

If people like me and you and the others who are "loosing" their precious time to spend it here with fellow enthusiasts, are unhappy, then the love story is over.
Right now, we may have some difficulties in our relationship but nothing which can't be sorted out IF both parties try hard. I think Porsche needs to understand that although the Carrera GT is a very fine product and definetely a supersportscar worth owning, the 911 Turbo is still the car people will see very often on the street and point their fingers at it. And it is somehow "accessible" from a financial point of view, as weird as it may sound. For me, the 911 Turbo scrapes at my financial pain limit, I don't think I could spare a dime more for this car.
It would be a pitty if the 997 Turbo ends up in the hands of poseurs, collectors or just as a weekend garage queen, the 911 flagship doesn't deserve it.

I still trust Porsche and their surprises, so maybe we're lucky. But even if the 911 Turbo gets 500 HP or more, I'm still left with a bitter taste on my tongue: why didn't the Carrera get 381 HP from the start?!

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:

Believe it or not, you are in the Romance business, not the basic transportation basis. If you cant get love from your customers, you arent going to get their money, its that simple.

Is Porsche still a love story?

My money is waiting.

Very eloquent, as well, Jim. Getting money for love, isn't that more than mere "Romance?" Something about the world's oldest profession?

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
RC, I think you expressed everyones feelings very eloquently.

I have been a Porsche owner since 1973 and have owned almost every model except for the 928.

Everybody recognizes that Porsche needs to make a healthy margin to stay in business, support its dealer network, develop new models and provide a happy return for its shareholders.

Why should anyone spend 110K plus USD on a 997S with a power kit when a 997GT3 will have a better engine and suspension for a few dollars more?(if the 996's GT3 pricing difference model holds) Why not just offer that engine in a non GT3 spec Carrera S and the M97 X51 engine in the standard Carrera?

Why do you deny US customers something as sports car basic as a limited slip differential? Do you think only uninformed and first time Porsche owners buy your cars in the US?

Will we the 997 Turbo be just "good enough" or spectacular?
At these prices and your margins, it should be spectacular
and not a mild evolutuion.

Believe it or not, you are in the Romance business, not the basic transportation basis. If you cant get love from your customers, you arent going to get their money, its that simple.

Is Porsche still a love story?

My money is waiting.

Jim,

I agree with you 100% and we all share the same type of argument regarding the power and more technical related topics as to why Porsche is not offering it or doing it and so forth. If you look at Porsche customers not all of them are as deeply rooted to the brand as many of us are here on rennteam. They have known Porsche historically that represented prestige and performance and they're buying it because of that "Badge".

To Porsche, us enthusiasts, form probably 5% of their customers; people that indeed know a whole lot about Porsche.

Now would Porsche jeopardize the other 95% customers that don't know and don't care what LSD stand for? Or for that matter what the difference in 18" and 19" wheels are? I think not., they want their money and that's it.

For GOD sake they are selling Boxster coupe (Cayman) as a new product line.

I feel as though Porsche has deviated from their main path and they're becoming more like BMW and MB.

I fear for the day that when you ask someone "what kind of Porsche you're driving?" the reply: a red one or a green one.

Hope the upcoming 997TT will be a revolution.

" Turbo " on the back of a 911 Coupe or Cab should elicit an aura of invicibilty on it's own, not triggering thoughts like " oh, that's the low power base model ".
Let a possible uber GT2 model be a raw, stripped , noisy almost ready for the track GT3RS - like version of a Turbo.
Keep it pure and simple with just these two types.

Get rid of General Motors style badge engineering power kits that are nothing much more than tweaked ECUs with a few components enlarged to handle the extra heat where anyone with half a college degree knows that the marginal cost for this $17K option is a few hundred bucks to PAG , and the resale mkt hammers that initial buyer .

As a bmw m3 owner who is in the market for a step-up in a performance car I am seriously looking at the 911. I guess im glad now that I didnt get the 911s because of the x51 that came out. However how can I justify the cost for it. A 911s was going to be the top of my budget. I think the 911 is a great car but look at the performance I can get from a z06. Yah its not a 911, but look at the performance. I hope the 911 turbo at least matchs that for the money. Looks like the new m3, although a year away is going to be over 400 hp for a lot less money than a 911s/x51. At least if I were to wait for the m3 I know that 1 yr down the road they wouldnt offer a m3's. The 911 should be everthing porsche is planning on doing to the performance during the lifecycle of the car at the beginning.

Get yourself together man LOL. Buddy you are not underpowered, you are driving an Icon of Engineering and Superb performance anywhere. How many 355 h.p. cars are out there that can even touch the 997S! My sentiments exactly

@RC


Everyone here seems to agree with you, but I don't.

The BHP war that has been going on for a while now is just pure marketing AND NOT what porsche is doing with their option list.

Mercedes, bmw, audi and others have all been playing this non-sense game for too long. They know that customers love to see big figures on paper. That alone sales cars. Most buyers of sports car don't know much about them. They buy it because it looks good, as a good reputation and make the people go Wow just by looking at them. Most porsche buyers are not on this forum. The majority has average knowledge about cars. And to most buyers, bigger the numbers are, better the car is.

That is, I'm sorry, pure marketing. When you trade a sl55 for sl65, it's just because it has more bhp. Can you actually use all the power? no. Can an average buyer handle it. No again. Plus the extra bhp will go up in smoke most of the time.
Take the BMW M6. It has 105 more bhp than the 997s, but is slower. The Aston V8 is also more powerful, but also slower.

I never thought you were so obsessed by power. You're clearly mixing bhp with how good a car is. More bhp does not make a car better. (take the lotus elise for instance)

More bhp you say? How many buyers of the 997s can actually use the full power of a 997s ? Probably there are alot of us here on this forum who are capable of it because they are passionate people, but I would doubt that most porsche owners can. BHP numbers is just an argument in the purpuse of saling more cars. Mercedes, bmw, audi and porsche know it. That's why there is war. It is the cause of this war. If Mercedes came up with the Sl65, it's just to increase the sales, it's for making people buy it instead of a Bmw, a porsche or what ever. To make a sale, the car has just to have more bhp than the competition. That's pure marketing.


As for the option list, you said it yourself. That's where the money is. And that's the case for every car company, including the ones who meke the "cheap" cars. A navigation system might be 3.000 on a porsche, but it's still 3.000 on an audi A6 2.0l diesel wich cost 50 or 60.000 less than a 911. Options prices are average when you compare them to other manufacturers. The only company that is in another league is Ferrari. I guess that's the price of more exclusivity.


Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. Porsche is right now a very profitable company. But what will it be in 10 years from now? Look at GM. It was the biggest automaker, it was making billions and now it's in danger of bankrupcy. Porsche is making money now, but they have to pack money for the future too. At least if they want to survive and stay indpendent. Porsche is alone. ferrari has Fiat behind, TVR was bought by russians, Lotus almost disappeared and we probably said goodbye to the esprit for good. Maserati was dead and was saved by ferrari. Aston was bought by Ford. LAmbo has VW.

Again, porsche is alone. If they do one mistake, they are dead meat. They'll go bankrupt or end up being bought by some major automaker. Then the navigation system will be from skoda, the gearbox from VW and the engine from audi. Is that what you want?

Automaker went and are still going towards consolidation. Like airlines will have to in the near future. (It already started by the way.) To stay independent, porsche has to have A [censored] loads of money.


Imagine if the cayenne had been a fload...porsche probably would not exist as it is right now or worst, would simply be gone for good.

Very interesting arguments, Amazon, and i mostly agree with you.

Btw i'd like to add that the more power P gives to the turbo, the more money they'll have to ask to be coherent with the whole range.They may loose some customers, and loose customers for the tt powerkits and 997 gt2 too.Remember the 996 gt2 had "only" 483 bhp and Porsche asked 190000 euros for it..would you pay that price for a 997tt?????

I think every one's point here is right to an extent. Amazon, I could not agree with you more that more h.p. will not make it a better car and again most of the Porsche drivers could not use all of that h.p. anyway, you are right on. I have said this in a few of my postings, that the horse power war is just out of control and sooner or later it will end and it will no longer be about how much a car can do but how well it can do it!

RC has a point as well about the options and the games. But guys bottom line Porsche is in business to make money and they will use whatever strategy to sell and keep their customers happy. No one whether it's auto manufacturer or baby food company aims to start a business to serve teh human kind, yes ultimately that is one of the factors, but the original idea is money, what line of business can I start and what products can I offer to make money and obviuosly to stay in business and compete with others you to have please the customers. Porsche is no different, they need to maximize their profit and they can only do it by offering quality products and goo customer service.

In US mkt (world's biggest), 997TT's sales competitors are SL55 and 430....both are sub-500hp cars (even by optimistic F claims...and SL55 needs to move 4300+lbs)...

And to F's credit, they didn't get worked up about Gallardo's 500hp and seek to top its hp w/new 430....and we all know what a smashing sales success Gallardo has been....

The car cos. casually putting 500+hp into their cars seem to have an uncanny ability and proven history of failing to engineer/offer: motors that don't blow up; brakes that aren't fade-prone; the exquisite driving feel that P and F are the masters of; offer bespoke interiors/dealer networks that those accustomed to $150K+ cars expect, etc etc......

I have read many comments on this thread that make sence to me. The 997 is a great car that is a blast to drive. However so is a Z06! My last car, an 03 Z06 was a blast. However, it didn't have that German feel to the interior. It also didn't have the road feel and tactile qualities of my 997S. However, at least GM didn't spray paint it's plastic and charge thousands of dollars extra after naming it "aluminum look". Porsche's option list is unbelievable. If you get the full leather interior, but forget to order the sun visors in leather, you will end up with sun visors that would not meet Chev. Cavalier standards. I know that from experience. This sort of sillyness makes it difficult to take Porsche seriously. And it makes me want to look at other brands.

The base Carrera is underpowered. I may not be able to exploit the car in the same manner as Hurley Haywood, but I sure feel the difference between a base Carrera and my old Z06. You don't have to be able to fully exploit a well made product to appreciate its special attributes. I may not be able to drive a TT the way many people here can, but I will sure enjoy trying!

My 997S was just over $ 144K Cdn. My Z06 was 75 K. It seems unbelievable to me the way P. tries to justify its prices. I want the next TT, but I think I may have to bring one up from the US and save many thousands of dollars (they are much cheaper in the US thanks to PCNA), as I won't be able to justify the cost of buying one here.

RC, I am generally a reader of this forum, and I rarely post. I am in agreement with you. I believe that P may be sacrificing long term viability for short term profits. They are alienating many customers.

And for those who think that the time that expert drivers are able to attain on the 'ring defines how much fun one can have with a car, I believe I could have a ball with many non P vehicles. While I would prefer a TT, unfortunately in my case the price will decide.

Amazon,

The 996TTS is slower 0-100kph (speeds between which MOST driving is done) than its predecessor, the 993TTS. Even the 993 turbo engine easily handles power upgrades to the 600HP range without widespread grenading, when tuned properly. The 997 turbo engine has been rumoured to be able to handle tuning up to 700HP before issues such as thermal stress supervene. All it would take for P to factory spec. the 997 turbo engine to low 500HP territory is simple re-programming of the ECU. I even wonder if they have tested 997TT test mules with different HP and torque curves with the same mechanicals. To say that more horsepower doesn't make a sports car better then begs the converse question: How much less horsepower would it take in your mind to make a sports car worse? Could a 911Turbo that weighs between 3,600 and 3,800 pounds drive in a "sporty" manner with 300bhp and 300lb-ft of torque, even with a flat torque curve from quickly spooling turbos? 200bhp/200lb-ft torque? Would 0-100kph in 4.5 seconds or 0-160kph in 15 seconds be acceptable to enthusiasts, like RC, myself and other drivers with the motivation to buy cars from other manufacturers if the 911 product lags further behind? It wouldn't be acceptable to me. I wonder what the true motivation for your position is. Do you have a deposit with your local dealer for a 997TT? If you do, are you afraid that it might be TOO powerful? Not "driveable?" If you aren't planning to get a 997TT, then do you have a cryptic desire to watch the 911Turbo (and ultimately the 911 model line) fade away-not that I am suggesting that you do, BTW. This is becoming kind of like the Anti-Cayman Board on this thread. On the Cayman Board, the Caymanophiles swear on a stack of bibles that the CaymanS is a work of Zuffenhausen magic, murmurs from respectable sources notwithstanding, whereas, over here in 911Turbophilia, all of us 911Turbo lovers dream that Zuffenhausen will actually factory spec. the 997TT that even just a little bit takes advantage of the prodigious power reserve that the 911 turbocharged engines have always had, to make it as it was 10-20 years ago, the king of the refined sports car world. But in contrast to the Cayman Clubbers, we worry that the 997 version of the 911Turbo will be neutered, so while they try to convince themselves that the CaymanS will smoke just about anything else on the road, we fret that that the 997TT will be too slow, that it will be not much faster than the 997CarreraS. If Porsche applies your marketing and production logic, then I suspect alot of 997TT deposits will be applied to "alternative" purchases, and Nick Berry will be proved prescient.

This is a good discussion, one that seems to be going on in some form in many of the threads. As an enthusiast, I want Porsche to return to building hard core cars and to prototype racing; however, if that meant they would be acquired or become weakened in the process I'm not so sure. Even as a grand tourer, the 997 is a delight in terms of precision and feel. Of course, the straight line performance is not as good relative to other cars as it once was, but who here will sacrifice through and through quality for the spartan edginess of an EVO or Elise? Nonetheless, like RC, I do think Porsche needs a flagship that will go toe to toe with any performance car as well as a bargain-basement stripper built for the enthusiast. Maybe Porsche's real crime isn't building these "grand tourers" but, rather, not offering something for the serious enthusiast accross the model range.

Quote:
Al Pettee said:
Amazon,

The 996TTS is slower 0-100kph (speeds between which MOST driving is done) than its predecessor, the 993TTS. Even the 993 turbo engine easily handles power upgrades to the 600HP range without widespread grenading, when tuned properly. The 997 turbo engine has been rumoured to be able to handle tuning up to 700HP before issues such as thermal stress supervene. All it would take for P to factory spec. the 997 turbo engine to low 500HP territory is simple re-programming of the ECU. I even wonder if they have tested 997TT test mules with different HP and torque curves with the same mechanicals. To say that more horsepower doesn't make a sports car better then begs the converse question: How much less horsepower would it take in your mind to make a sports car worse? Could a 911Turbo that weighs between 3,600 and 3,800 pounds drive in a "sporty" manner with 300bhp and 300lb-ft of torque, even with a flat torque curve from quickly spooling turbos? 200bhp/200lb-ft torque? Would 0-100kph in 4.5 seconds or 0-160kph in 15 seconds be acceptable to enthusiasts, like RC, myself and other drivers with the motivation to buy cars from other manufacturers if the 911 product lags further behind? It wouldn't be acceptable to me. I wonder what the true motivation for your position is. Do you have a deposit with your local dealer for a 997TT? If you do, are you afraid that it might be TOO powerful? Not "driveable?" If you aren't planning to get a 997TT, then do you have a cryptic desire to watch the 911Turbo (and ultimately the 911 model line) fade away-not that I am suggesting that you do, BTW. This is becoming kind of like the Anti-Cayman Board on this thread. On the Cayman Board, the Caymanophiles swear on a stack of bibles that the CaymanS is a work of Zuffenhausen magic, murmurs from respectable sources notwithstanding, whereas, over here in 911Turbophilia, all of us 911Turbo lovers dream that Zuffenhausen will actually factory spec. the 997TT that even just a little bit takes advantage of the prodigious power reserve that the 911 turbocharged engines have always had, to make it as it was 10-20 years ago, the king of the refined sports car world. But in contrast to the Cayman Clubbers, we worry that the 997 version of the 911Turbo will be neutered, so while they try to convince themselves that the CaymanS will smoke just about anything else on the road, we fret that that the 997TT will be too slow, that it will be not much faster than the 997CarreraS. If Porsche applies your marketing and production logic, then I suspect alot of 997TT deposits will be applied to "alternative" purchases, and Nick Berry will be proved prescient.

Al, one lives in a very sad place if most of driving is done btwn 0-60MPH, presumably doing stoplight dragraces vs local burgerflippers....

Recall when Gallardo was launched....many predicted F would be scrambling to come up w/an answer to Gallardo's 500hp, blah blah .....well, 430 was released w/well under 500hp...and 430 sales in US still seem more robust than Gallardo sales....

Gallardo is great example of a capable competing sportscar w/500hp (or more) and great N-ring times, yet G-car hasn't lived up to sales expecs...so much for the "hp sells" mantra...

Reality is any car co. can only sell some 200 cars/yr into US mkt if it offers a $100K+ car that's too performance-focused...look at GT2/3/Gallardo sales nos. as precedents..... ....my sense is P targets selling some 2K/yr 997TT into US mkt...

Most relevant comp for 997TT is SL55....similar $150K pricepoint, GT-oriented upscale buyer base, <500hp and roughly 2K cars/yr sold in US....

Gallardo sales have been increasing. The 2006 with another 20 hp and revised gear ratios is a much improved and faster car. Amazingly they even offer a "winter package" with extra wheels and winter tires! At least they intend for owners to use their cars. The Gallardo is fast becoming the anti boutique exotic car and is building its own legion of followers bored with Ferrari and its social stigmata. Its not easy for Lambo to climb up from nothing in the 200K price range, but they have done it.

The SL55 is Obsolete, Yesterdays News. The SL63 is coming! Porsche would be incompetent to not have a car ready to deal with new models from competitors. If indeed the SL55 two door rocket couch was ever real competition anyway! Who buys those SL's? The comfort crowd, its not a sports car, its a car for old ladies to drive in Palm Springs and Boca Raton.

Porsche's Turbo mission should be to lead in ALL performance categories. It should be a ruthless performer with brutal
accelleration, braking and handling. It should make Ferrari
owners cringe and Corvette Z06 owners realize they need to spend double to get a real sports car.

And if anyone working at Weissach reads this, just what the heck have you been doing with that Black C6 Corvette coupe you have there? Is that one of the Mallet 427 conversions
that was shipped to Germany this summer

Great post RC. I just wish you had made all of these points earlier about the 997/997S. At 355HP, it is STILL an underpowered car. As I tool around town on the last few days of ownership of my 996, I am constantly dissapointed with the power. I imagine that I will not feel that much better about the 997S when it arrives. But what am I to do, add the US$16K Porsche powerkit. What a joke! And it does not even add much power at low revs, where the car is lacking the most. I am dreading the day when I get smoked by a BMW that costs 70% as much as my 997S. Yeah, I know that overall the 997S is a better balanced car. But why should I have to make sacrifces for US$100K? It just does not make sense.

It seems to me that Porsche has us loyal enthusiasts over a barrel. The know they car offer a cheaper version of the car and we will still buy it because we love the concept and feel of the car. But it's just not right. Frankly, I considered other options this time around and with only a few days to delivery I am having those thoughts again.

Quote:
Al Pettee said:
Amazon,

The 996TTS is slower 0-100kph (speeds between which MOST driving is done) than its predecessor, the 993TTS. Even the 993 turbo engine easily handles power upgrades to the 600HP range without widespread grenading, when tuned properly. The 997 turbo engine has been rumoured to be able to handle tuning up to 700HP before issues such as thermal stress supervene. All it would take for P to factory spec. the 997 turbo engine to low 500HP territory is simple re-programming of the ECU. I even wonder if they have tested 997TT test mules with different HP and torque curves with the same mechanicals. To say that more horsepower doesn't make a sports car better then begs the converse question: How much less horsepower would it take in your mind to make a sports car worse? Could a 911Turbo that weighs between 3,600 and 3,800 pounds drive in a "sporty" manner with 300bhp and 300lb-ft of torque, even with a flat torque curve from quickly spooling turbos? 200bhp/200lb-ft torque? Would 0-100kph in 4.5 seconds or 0-160kph in 15 seconds be acceptable to enthusiasts, like RC, myself and other drivers with the motivation to buy cars from other manufacturers if the 911 product lags further behind? It wouldn't be acceptable to me. I wonder what the true motivation for your position is. Do you have a deposit with your local dealer for a 997TT? If you do, are you afraid that it might be TOO powerful? Not "driveable?" If you aren't planning to get a 997TT, then do you have a cryptic desire to watch the 911Turbo (and ultimately the 911 model line) fade away-not that I am suggesting that you do, BTW. This is becoming kind of like the Anti-Cayman Board on this thread. On the Cayman Board, the Caymanophiles swear on a stack of bibles that the CaymanS is a work of Zuffenhausen magic, murmurs from respectable sources notwithstanding, whereas, over here in 911Turbophilia, all of us 911Turbo lovers dream that Zuffenhausen will actually factory spec. the 997TT that even just a little bit takes advantage of the prodigious power reserve that the 911 turbocharged engines have always had, to make it as it was 10-20 years ago, the king of the refined sports car world. But in contrast to the Cayman Clubbers, we worry that the 997 version of the 911Turbo will be neutered, so while they try to convince themselves that the CaymanS will smoke just about anything else on the road, we fret that that the 997TT will be too slow, that it will be not much faster than the 997CarreraS. If Porsche applies your marketing and production logic, then I suspect alot of 997TT deposits will be applied to "alternative" purchases, and Nick Berry will be proved prescient.

The 996 TTS is not the successor of the 993TTS. The 996TTS is just a 996 turbo with athe x51 option (powerkità and an S on the boot. It's a marketing strategy to boost sales of the turbo before the 997 turbo comes. In other words, the meaning of the letter "S" has completely changed in the 996 line up.

First of all, Porsche has been trying for a while now to make more sense in their line up. They are trying to indentify all their models in a way that everyone can understand it.

With the 996, there was a C4s but no C2s. The S meant turbo body and not more power. The S was just a design thing.
Then the turbo S came along to boost sales. When you think about it, the 996TTS is more like the 996C2 40th anniv. Power kit, other color, better leather interior, options coming standard and the famous and very controvercial power kit. The 996TTS and 40th anniv were made approximately at the same time and for the same purpuse: sell more 996c2 and more turbo at the end of the 996's life. These two cars were made for marketing reasons only.

Second, can you tell me the point of having 700bhp in a road going version of the 911. It sounds to me like the power of a formula 1 of the early 90's. There's no point to it. Cars of today are just a bit faster or sometimes even slower than older cars but they've got 100 and 100 of more bhp...Why? you said it yourself: wheight. Today's cars are heavier. So basicaly, you need a 100 more bhp to compensate the fat. Why not keep the weight down instead of raising BHP figures ? Probably because all of us want ous sat nav and other goodies, and because the average driver does not look at the car's weight but at how many bhp the cars has compared to the competition It's sad but true.

I'm not looking to buy a porsche 997 turbo. I don't have the money. Some of you raised the price tag problem too. Car prices have gone mad. A 993TT cost about 120.000euro. A 996 turbo cost 145.000 with no options. That is 20 percent more What much will cost a 997 turbo...175K ?
So yes you get more and more bhp but at what price...

I am happy that there is a 997 c2 at a reasonnable price. I do not want to pay the price of a 996 turbo for a 997 c4s cab. RC raised that problem too some time ago. Look at how much cost an Sl 55 or 63 or 65 or what ever. Yes you can have 600bhp but at what price...

Finally, where will be the limit to this bhp war. When will you be satisfied? 800bhp? 1000bhp? 2000bhp? IMHO, it is just absurd.

Quote:
amazon said:

Quote:
Al Pettee said:
Amazon,

The 996TTS is slower 0-100kph (speeds between which MOST driving is done) than its predecessor, the 993TTS. Even the 993 turbo engine easily handles power upgrades to the 600HP range without widespread grenading, when tuned properly. The 997 turbo engine has been rumoured to be able to handle tuning up to 700HP before issues such as thermal stress supervene. All it would take for P to factory spec. the 997 turbo engine to low 500HP territory is simple re-programming of the ECU. I even wonder if they have tested 997TT test mules with different HP and torque curves with the same mechanicals. To say that more horsepower doesn't make a sports car better then begs the converse question: How much less horsepower would it take in your mind to make a sports car worse? Could a 911Turbo that weighs between 3,600 and 3,800 pounds drive in a "sporty" manner with 300bhp and 300lb-ft of torque, even with a flat torque curve from quickly spooling turbos? 200bhp/200lb-ft torque? Would 0-100kph in 4.5 seconds or 0-160kph in 15 seconds be acceptable to enthusiasts, like RC, myself and other drivers with the motivation to buy cars from other manufacturers if the 911 product lags further behind? It wouldn't be acceptable to me. I wonder what the true motivation for your position is. Do you have a deposit with your local dealer for a 997TT? If you do, are you afraid that it might be TOO powerful? Not "driveable?" If you aren't planning to get a 997TT, then do you have a cryptic desire to watch the 911Turbo (and ultimately the 911 model line) fade away-not that I am suggesting that you do, BTW. This is becoming kind of like the Anti-Cayman Board on this thread. On the Cayman Board, the Caymanophiles swear on a stack of bibles that the CaymanS is a work of Zuffenhausen magic, murmurs from respectable sources notwithstanding, whereas, over here in 911Turbophilia, all of us 911Turbo lovers dream that Zuffenhausen will actually factory spec. the 997TT that even just a little bit takes advantage of the prodigious power reserve that the 911 turbocharged engines have always had, to make it as it was 10-20 years ago, the king of the refined sports car world. But in contrast to the Cayman Clubbers, we worry that the 997 version of the 911Turbo will be neutered, so while they try to convince themselves that the CaymanS will smoke just about anything else on the road, we fret that that the 997TT will be too slow, that it will be not much faster than the 997CarreraS. If Porsche applies your marketing and production logic, then I suspect alot of 997TT deposits will be applied to "alternative" purchases, and Nick Berry will be proved prescient.

The 996 TTS is not the successor of the 993TTS. The 996TTS is just a 996 turbo with athe x51 option (powerkità and an S on the boot. It's a marketing strategy to boost sales of the turbo before the 997 turbo comes. In other words, the meaning of the letter "S" has completely changed in the 996 line up.

First of all, Porsche has been trying for a while now to make more sense in their line up. They are trying to indentify all their models in a way that everyone can understand it.

With the 996, there was a C4s but no C2s. The S meant turbo body and not more power. The S was just a design thing.
Then the turbo S came along to boost sales. When you think about it, the 996TTS is more like the 996C2 40th anniv. Power kit, other color, better leather interior, options coming standard and the famous and very controvercial power kit. The 996TTS and 40th anniv were made approximately at the same time and for the same purpuse: sell more 996c2 and more turbo at the end of the 996's life. These two cars were made for marketing reasons only.

Second, can you tell me the point of having 700bhp in a road going version of the 911. It sounds to me like the power of a formula 1 of the early 90's. There's no point to it. Cars of today are just a bit faster or sometimes even slower than older cars but they've got 100 and 100 of more bhp...Why? you said it yourself: wheight. Today's cars are heavier. So basicaly, you need a 100 more bhp to compensate the fat. Why not keep the weight down instead of raising BHP figures ? Probably because all of us want ous sat nav and other goodies, and because the average driver does not look at the car's weight but at how many bhp the cars has compared to the competition It's sad but true.

I'm not looking to buy a porsche 997 turbo. I don't have the money. Some of you raised the price tag problem too. Car prices have gone mad. A 993TT cost about 120.000euro. A 996 turbo cost 145.000 with no options. That is 20 percent more What much will cost a 997 turbo...175K ?
So yes you get more and more bhp but at what price...

I am happy that there is a 997 c2 at a reasonnable price. I do not want to pay the price of a 996 turbo for a 997 c4s cab. RC raised that problem too some time ago. Look at how much cost an Sl 55 or 63 or 65 or what ever. Yes you can have 600bhp but at what price...

Finally, where will be the limit to this bhp war. When will you be satisfied? 800bhp? 1000bhp? 2000bhp? IMHO, it is just absurd.

Yes, the 996TTS is a 996TT with the powerkit (plus the updated PCCB and other boutique items stabdard), but the fact remains, the 993TTS 0-100kph is faster than the 996TTS 0-100kph.

As for how much HP for the 997TT, I would "settle" for 600.

Hi RC,
Very interesting post and plea to Porsche. I understand where you are coming from and my heart shares your feelings. But Porsche is a very different company today than when it was founded. It is driven by profits and maximising shareholder value. Sure Wiedeking is an engineer but the focus of the company is on marketing.
Is Porsche listening?
It is funny, I has a private discussion with Carlos about that over a year ago. I believe they are but I tend to be very cynical about that. Truth is, Porsche enthousiast like us, maybe represent 2 to 3% of their costumers. But we are the ones that drive the passion, granted.
I met two London bankers who didn't even knew how many hp their 996 had, it's all about driving a 911. Of course, the reputation has to come from somewhere (racing pedigree) and be transmitted by someone, us.
Porsche makes a very good profit margin with the 911 and even more with the Turbo, as long as they will be a costumer demand, I don't see their marketing strategy changing.
As long as they are costumers willing to pay up to over 40000 euros of options, they won't change their options strategy. It is ridiculous, but that's the way they see their 911.
True a 911 with PCCB, powerkit, etc etc is the price of the upcoming GT3 and not far from a Turbo, but it's still a different car in its character.
The 911 has always been about evolution, when the 996 Turbo came out, it only had 12 hp more than the 993 Turbo and was heavier. Disappointment at first, the car was even slower than the 993 in a straight line, according to some publications. But it turned out to te an enormous success. And I am sure some Rennteamers bought a 996 Turbo. It is not all about the power.
The competition today is far greater, it's true, it will be very interesting to see how much power the 997 Turbo gets. I'm hoping too it will be around 500hp, but if it's not the case, I have no doubt it will still be a very successful car. And for the power hungry, as usual, we will get powerkits, S versions and ultimately, the GT2.
I can't see the Turbo staying about the 450 hp mark though, not with Lambo, Ferrari, and other players all around the 500 mark.
But having said that, a 991S is still a better performer than a Maserati Gransport, V8 Vantage or an SL55 dispite the fact it is far less powerful, Porsche proves us wrong.
Power is not everything, the next major change of the SL, bar the facelift, is an engine change, the SL55 becomes the SL63, much better car, but same power figure.
Even if Porsche listens, we will not see a reaction before a 997 Turbo facelift anyway, the 997 Turbo power figure was probably anchored and approved over three years ago.
I know that Porsche actually has a 5 years timeline ready for their lineup, so we shall see what happens in the mid term future.
It would be fascinating to have a discussion with the likes of Wiedeking, Durheimer and Rohrl and get their different points of view.
My take is Porsche knows exactly what their are doing, and I see enough base 997 on the road to prove me that most costumers are not only after power, this is something I would have disagreed with a few years back actually.
We will all find out very soon anyway, I remain optimistic, if I turn out to be disapointed by the power figure of the 997 Turbo, I will actually take a step back and think to myself what I'm missing. Porsche knows the importance of the Turbo model.

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Al Pettee said:

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amazon said:

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Al Pettee said:
Amazon,

The 996TTS is slower 0-100kph (speeds between which MOST driving is done) than its predecessor, the 993TTS. Even the 993 turbo engine easily handles power upgrades to the 600HP range without widespread grenading, when tuned properly. The 997 turbo engine has been rumoured to be able to handle tuning up to 700HP before issues such as thermal stress supervene. All it would take for P to factory spec. the 997 turbo engine to low 500HP territory is simple re-programming of the ECU. I even wonder if they have tested 997TT test mules with different HP and torque curves with the same mechanicals. To say that more horsepower doesn't make a sports car better then begs the converse question: How much less horsepower would it take in your mind to make a sports car worse? Could a 911Turbo that weighs between 3,600 and 3,800 pounds drive in a "sporty" manner with 300bhp and 300lb-ft of torque, even with a flat torque curve from quickly spooling turbos? 200bhp/200lb-ft torque? Would 0-100kph in 4.5 seconds or 0-160kph in 15 seconds be acceptable to enthusiasts, like RC, myself and other drivers with the motivation to buy cars from other manufacturers if the 911 product lags further behind? It wouldn't be acceptable to me. I wonder what the true motivation for your position is. Do you have a deposit with your local dealer for a 997TT? If you do, are you afraid that it might be TOO powerful? Not "driveable?" If you aren't planning to get a 997TT, then do you have a cryptic desire to watch the 911Turbo (and ultimately the 911 model line) fade away-not that I am suggesting that you do, BTW. This is becoming kind of like the Anti-Cayman Board on this thread. On the Cayman Board, the Caymanophiles swear on a stack of bibles that the CaymanS is a work of Zuffenhausen magic, murmurs from respectable sources notwithstanding, whereas, over here in 911Turbophilia, all of us 911Turbo lovers dream that Zuffenhausen will actually factory spec. the 997TT that even just a little bit takes advantage of the prodigious power reserve that the 911 turbocharged engines have always had, to make it as it was 10-20 years ago, the king of the refined sports car world. But in contrast to the Cayman Clubbers, we worry that the 997 version of the 911Turbo will be neutered, so while they try to convince themselves that the CaymanS will smoke just about anything else on the road, we fret that that the 997TT will be too slow, that it will be not much faster than the 997CarreraS. If Porsche applies your marketing and production logic, then I suspect alot of 997TT deposits will be applied to "alternative" purchases, and Nick Berry will be proved prescient.

The 996 TTS is not the successor of the 993TTS. The 996TTS is just a 996 turbo with athe x51 option (powerkità and an S on the boot. It's a marketing strategy to boost sales of the turbo before the 997 turbo comes. In other words, the meaning of the letter "S" has completely changed in the 996 line up.

First of all, Porsche has been trying for a while now to make more sense in their line up. They are trying to indentify all their models in a way that everyone can understand it.

With the 996, there was a C4s but no C2s. The S meant turbo body and not more power. The S was just a design thing.
Then the turbo S came along to boost sales. When you think about it, the 996TTS is more like the 996C2 40th anniv. Power kit, other color, better leather interior, options coming standard and the famous and very controvercial power kit. The 996TTS and 40th anniv were made approximately at the same time and for the same purpuse: sell more 996c2 and more turbo at the end of the 996's life. These two cars were made for marketing reasons only.

Second, can you tell me the point of having 700bhp in a road going version of the 911. It sounds to me like the power of a formula 1 of the early 90's. There's no point to it. Cars of today are just a bit faster or sometimes even slower than older cars but they've got 100 and 100 of more bhp...Why? you said it yourself: wheight. Today's cars are heavier. So basicaly, you need a 100 more bhp to compensate the fat. Why not keep the weight down instead of raising BHP figures ? Probably because all of us want ous sat nav and other goodies, and because the average driver does not look at the car's weight but at how many bhp the cars has compared to the competition It's sad but true.

I'm not looking to buy a porsche 997 turbo. I don't have the money. Some of you raised the price tag problem too. Car prices have gone mad. A 993TT cost about 120.000euro. A 996 turbo cost 145.000 with no options. That is 20 percent more What much will cost a 997 turbo...175K ?
So yes you get more and more bhp but at what price...

I am happy that there is a 997 c2 at a reasonnable price. I do not want to pay the price of a 996 turbo for a 997 c4s cab. RC raised that problem too some time ago. Look at how much cost an Sl 55 or 63 or 65 or what ever. Yes you can have 600bhp but at what price...

Finally, where will be the limit to this bhp war. When will you be satisfied? 800bhp? 1000bhp? 2000bhp? IMHO, it is just absurd.

Yes, the 996TTS is a 996TT with the powerkit (plus the updated PCCB and other boutique items stabdard), but the fact remains, the 993TTS 0-100kph is faster than the 996TTS 0-100kph.

As for how much HP for the 997TT, I would "settle" for 600.

That's what I'm planning to do. I'll wait for a 997TTS Powerkit (or, if I can't stand it, maybe just a 997TTS ). Amazon does raise an interesting point. Most of us would probably be happy with 420 HP if that meant that we had the fastest car on the road. The problem however is, that family sedans are now devilishly fast and us humans are a walking meatphor for vanity. We want to have more power just to be faster than the next guy around. But hey, I can live with that

Yes, the 997 Carrera S is underpowered. But not because it isn't fast (remember: with 355 "only", the 997 Carrera S has the same performance figures like the Ferrari F360 Modena, a 996 Turbo Tiptronic and is faster than the new AMV V8) but because it could handle much more and you can feel it. The 997 Carrera S is a very fast car, handling is superb and it can outrun a lot of those so called supersportscars out there on the market. But Porsche should start to give the 911 customer a little bit more power, power sells and high power figures always provide an argument advantage for Porsche dealers too to sell these cars to more people.

I'm just afraid that Porsche does the same mistake with the 997 like they did with the Boxster. Boxster sales figures dropped a lot, mainly in the US. For such a premium price tag, people expect premium power. Porsche has to learn a lesson about marketing schemes, especially in the future.

Amazon,

Rgarding the power and weight issues and performance, if the 997 could be built with alot less power and with much much less weight with tremendous improvements in performance, then great, BUT modern cars have ever more stringent safety/emissions requirements to meet, requiring lots of weight-adding "overhead" (bumpers, door supports, airbag implements), so extra HP is needed to improve to improve performance. My Noble M400 (due next March) is a good example of the benefits of weight limitation-425bhp from a 3.0L V6 TT, but weighing barely over a ton (for a P:W ratio of 400, hence the moniker M400), due to lack of airbags, extra suppports-it has a roll bar-minimal insulation-BUT it's a "kit" car because of this-so its market is limited to enthusiasts like me. It can gallop 0-100kph in 3.3 seconds, 0-160kph in less than 8 seconds, since it's so lean. On the contrary, P NEEDS to boost HP to move (? nearly) 4,000 pounds briskly. If P could spec. a 997TT to run 0-100kph in the low- to mid-3's, and 0-160kph in the 7's, this would be an awesome car, I believe easily manageable with a HP boost to 500+.

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Al Pettee said:
Amazon,

If P could spec. a 997TT to run 0-100kph in the low- to mid-3's, and 0-160kph in the 7's, this would be an awesome car, I believe easily manageable with a HP boost to 500+.

of course but at what price? You could make a turbo as powerful as a sl65 or sl63 (600bhp), but what would be the price? Would you be willing to pay 220K for a 997TT ? (that's how much a sl65 is.) I would not. Maybe P should produce one and call it GT2 or whatever for those of us with tons of cash on their hands but I'd like to see the 911 remain "accessible" to actual owners. Most 997s and 996 turbo owners would not be capable financialy to buy a +200k car.

At the rate MSRP prices are going up, in ten years you'll buy a 4 bedroom house for the price of a 911 turbo.

The 997s has only 355bhp but is "only" 90k. It's a "cheap car" compared to M6, astons, ferraris and sl65. You have to keep that in mind. I would love to see a 600bhp porsche 911, but don't make it the turbo. Make it a more exclusive model like a GT2. If P decides to produce a 997 GT2, I'd like it also to be untouchable. But if it happen, it also won't be affordable ($$$) for the average P buyer.

That's why I always loved the M3. You get so much for the price. Let's hope it will stay that way.

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RC said:
Yes, the 997 Carrera S is underpowered.

Maybe, but it's only 90k. For the price you pay, it's good value. If it had 400 or 500 bhp, how much would the car cost? Would you be ready to pay 125 or 150 for a carrera S ?

The 997 is a lot cheaper than an M6, astons, ferraris, sl65 wit its 612bhp but also with its 220k sticker price. Would you want to pay 220k for the 997 turbo ?

You said it yourself with a c4s cab you saw, with almost a sticker price of a 996 turbo. Are you willing to pay 130-140 for a C4s ?

I'm not.



Do you want a 450bhp 997s at 125k ?
Do you want a 600bhp turbo at 220k ? (power and price of a sl65)

Let's keep the 911 affordable for other people than millionaires who got their money from daddy or made it on their own in some exclusive business sectors out of reach of "everyday successful, hard working people"

Guys, we might as well end this discussion here.

auto motor und sport (sister magazine to sport auto), a reliable source states in todays issue re 997 turbo:

'Also with the new version based on the 997, Porsche does not dare to reach the 500 HP treshhold. The sportscar will come in March with 480 HP.'

End of the story... and the powerdreams we might have. The fact that they mention the 500 HP is a clear sign to me they know about the 480 HP for sure. we'll have to fork out another 20k to get the powerkit or S version to reach maybe 508 HP... sad story, it's all about money with this firm...

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amazon said:

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RC said:
Yes, the 997 Carrera S is underpowered.

Maybe, but it's only 90k. For the price you pay, it's good value. If it had 400 or 500 bhp, how much would the car cost? Would you be ready to pay 125 or 150 for a carrera S ?

The 997 is a lot cheaper than an M6, astons, ferraris, sl65 wit its 612bhp but also with its 220k sticker price. Would you want to pay 220k for the 997 turbo ?

You said it yourself with a c4s cab you saw, with almost a sticker price of a 996 turbo. Are you willing to pay 130-140 for a C4s ?

I'm not.

I fully understand and appreciate the marketing issue for P and all carmakers, and as I have stated on other threads, P markets its cars (and powers them accordingly) based on what they have analyzed to be the optimal power output and production cost with reliability (translation-minimized warranty claims costs during the 4-year warranty coverage period) which produces the greatest summated revenue from P buyers. Thus the higher the price, the lower the demand; and the lower the price, the higher the demand; while the higher the power, the higher the demand, and the lower the power, the lower the demand. Hence the trick for Wiedeking et al for the 997TT is to market the car at a power level that is high enough to increase demand but low enough to minimize warranty claims and at a price that is low enough to sustain demand but as high as possible to maximize profit. What RC, myself and others are arguing is that because the competition is "upping the ante" with power upgrades on their models, that P has extra incentive to power up the 997TT, yes, within the confines of the marketing realities summarized above, but to underpower the 997TT, as has been its recent history with other model variants, risks losing 911Turbo customers. The 911Turbo is not a "necessity" (even in the most materialistic of cultures, including much of the USA), and the competition in the sports car market is evermore intense. So here is hoping that Dr. Wiedeking and his competent marketing team pleasantly surprise all of us.