Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - BC, now GM, too, says your numbers are wrong. - Page1

Oct 12, 2003 2:05:56 AM

JabbaJabba: Newbie; Loc: Germany/China; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003

New exhaust pipes.

One of the things I never got to like about the Cayenne Turbo was the squared exhaust pipes - so yesterday I got my new rounded pipes from Gemballa, which I think are much more stilish and suits the car much better.

What do you think? See picture below "stolen" from the Gemballa web site.

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Oct 12, 2003 3:27:40 AM

Jeffrey Behr: Junior; Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA; Posts: 129, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2003; Reply to: JabbaJabba

New TAILpipe tips

They look pretty good. Now replace the muffler with 2-3/4" or 3" S-pipes and your Cayenne's sound will be worthy of its 500+ horsepower. I did and I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See http://community.webshots.com/album/90671822hcMWEZ .

BTW, what octane gasoline do you usually use?

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Oct 12, 2003 9:05:17 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: JabbaJabba

Re: New exhaust pipes.

Very nice, much better than the original pipes!

I don't understand why Porsche goes for that weird design on their exhaust pipes, including the 996 Exclusive tail pipes.

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Oct 12, 2003 11:06:27 AM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: New exhaust pipes.

Part of the stock design, the diagonal cut, is so that the exhaust tip won't scrape the ground when starting up a steep incline. It would adversely affect the departure angle they are so proud of. Those numbers do get compared.

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Oct 12, 2003 6:09:23 PM

JabbaJabba: Newbie; Loc: Germany/China; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Jeffrey Behr

Re: New TAILpipe tips

Quote:
BTW, what octane gasoline do you usually use?

I use 98 octane (which as far as I know equals 95 octan in the States). In case you are interested, the performance box comes from Gemballa as well.

As far as the sound goes, I actually do think that the sound of my previous Cayenne S is more desirable. But I've gotten to appreciate the somewhat understated metallic-"woosh" sound from the Turbo. And people still do notice when you drive past them with the stock mufflers

RC: Didn't you know that I am trying to put together a Cayenne that you would approve as well?

As for the angle - didn't think of that. I very rarely go off-roading unless you include snowy ski-resorts - so I won't be bothered by them. I changed the pipes purely from an aesthetics point of view.

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Oct 12, 2003 6:48:34 PM

Jeffrey Behr: Junior; Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA; Posts: 129, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2003; Reply to: JabbaJabba

Oct 12, 2003 6:52:27 PM

JabbaJabba: Newbie; Loc: Germany/China; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Jeffrey Behr

Re: Jabba, is that 98RON, or 98(average)

What is the difference? How do you distinguish? I usually fill it up in Denmark on the border to Germany and here there is three grades of unleaded gas: 92 and 95. And then there is the now more rare unleaded 98 which is the one I use.

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Oct 12, 2003 9:00:37 PM

Jeffrey Behr: Junior; Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA; Posts: 129, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2003; Reply to: JabbaJabba

It's labeled on the pump.

'RON' is Research Octane Number and 'MON' is Motor Octane Number. In the ranges we're discussing, the 2 methods produce numbers that are about 10 apart, with research being higher. In the US, gasoline sold in interstate commerce (which is all of it) must be labeled with the average of the 2, usually stated '(R + M)/2'.

If yours is 98RON, it's probably 88MON, which averages 93, which is what our Cayennes are designed for...and which also means you MIGHT be getting all the horsepower you paid dearly for. If you were using 91(avg.), you wouldn't be getting all that power.

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Oct 12, 2003 10:51:59 PM

Cay: Junior; Loc: Germany; Posts: 124, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 10, 2003; Reply to: Jeffrey Behr

Re: It's labeled on the pump.

pipes looks cool - what u pay 4 it?

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Oct 13, 2003 7:43:26 AM

Jeffrey Behr: Junior; Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA; Posts: 129, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2003; Reply to: Cay

The 3" S-pipes cost me just under $300...

...plus the cost of a can of hi-temp flat-black paint. :-)

The vehicle now sounds like a powerful V8 engine equipped with glasspack mufflers, except it has none of the hi-frequency (harsh) portion of sound that glasspacks usually produce. I wouldn't do this with an S, only with a Turbo that has turbochargers that smooth some of the sound. I can now HEAR the sound of those 450 horses, even with the windows closed, but it's never too loud.

Have you seen the 2 Cayenne commercials that feature Cayennes that sound like something? One I call the motorhome commercial; the other is the newer one that has a fellow throttling his Cayenne in his driveway with a telefone lying on the driveway between the tailpipe tips. Real Cayennes sound NOTHING like those 2; in fact, they sound rather like nothing at all. Said another way, they have virtually no sound. Not mine, and I love it.

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Oct 13, 2003 7:48:38 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: JabbaJabba

Re: Jabba, is that 98RON, or 98(average)

To make it simple:

98 octane Germany = 95 octane US
95 octane Germany = 92 octane US

In Europe, 98 octane (Germany) is mandatory for the "S" and Turbo. Especially the Turbo needs high quality fuel, the engine ECU can adapt but only to a certain level. If you're driving with lower quality fuel, avoid harsh acceleration or kickdown, it might destroy your engine little by little.

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Oct 13, 2003 8:02:12 AM

Jeffrey Behr: Junior; Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA; Posts: 129, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2003; Reply to: RC

I disagree, RC. I think your US...

...numbers are 2 too high. And when 2 is the difference between having JUST enough octane and having the octane the engine is designed for, it's substantial.

Again, the MON-rating octane numbers are TEN (not six) lower than the RON-rating numbers. That makes the US (averaged) numbers FIVE lower than the RON numbers.

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Oct 13, 2003 8:09:37 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Jeffrey Behr

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Quote:
...numbers are 2 too high. And when 2 is the difference between having JUST enough octane and having the octane the engine is designed for, it's substantial.

Again, the MON-rating octane numbers are TEN (not six) lower than the RON-rating numbers. That makes the US (averaged) numbers FIVE lower than the RON numbers.

The numbers I mentioned are accurate.

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Oct 13, 2003 10:18:48 AM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

The US Cayenne owners manual says 98 RON (used in Germany I think) is equivalent to the US 93 CLC (Cost of Living Council or average of RON and MON) and this is the recommended octane for the S and Turbo. A US octane rating of 95 would not be available at normal outlets anywhere in the US. The owners manual says 95 RON (91 in US) could be used if the higher octane is not available. There are parts of the US where 91 is the highest octane you can buy locally.

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Oct 13, 2003 4:33:27 PM

Jeffrey Behr: Junior; Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA; Posts: 129, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2003; Reply to: GM Austin

BC, now GM, too, says your numbers are wrong.

And they are. The 2 ratings results are 10 apart. 98RON = 93, not 95, average.

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Oct 14, 2003 2:57:31 AM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: Jeffrey Behr

Re: BC, now GM, too, says your numbers are wrong.

I try not to agree with RC too much

, we need to keep our readers awake.

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Oct 14, 2003 12:18:37 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: GM Austin

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Gary, I got my numbers direct from ARAL Research (ARAL is part of BP and has one of the largest fuel station networks in Germany).
You make one vital mistake: you think that the US motronic software is the same as for ROW or Germany. This isn't right, the US has a different software (adapted to a lower octane rating) than the Germany version, this is where the confusion probably comes from. It is very difficult to do your own calculations and to compare fuel qualities, that's why a few months ago, we got the data from ARAL Research because a guy from the US needed to know how to adapt a Motronic which he has had programmed in Germany at RS-Tuning.
Again: the numbers are correct, you just have to trust me (and I bet Jeffrey won't...

).

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Oct 14, 2003 12:30:39 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Very interesting..... so it implies, a US Spec. (modern) Porsche would not work properly in Europe and you may even damage the engine unless you change the software.

I know there were some differences for the 964 and for the 993 but I thought for the 996 engine specs were the same.

Right now with a strong euro, it's tempting to buy a Cayenne in the US, keep it there for 6 month and then ship it back to Europe. US models are cheaper on a like for like basis....

This is for example the case for the Touareg V8, which is priced at $40,000 (excl. sales tax) and at €55,800 (excl. VAT) in Europe !!!!!

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Oct 14, 2003 1:42:14 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Quote:

Very interesting..... so it implies, a US Spec. (modern) Porsche would not work properly in Europe and you may even damage the engine unless you change the software.

On the contrary, US Porsches are set up for LOWER octane rates which makes them perfectly driveable in Europe.
You see, it is a pretty complicated matter.

Official engine specs are the same but oh boy, life would be so easy without differences. Go to your dealer, ask him about the engine ECU unit on the 996 and then you get three different units (US, Japan and ROW). Even some engine parts are different.

Things aren't that easy nowadays.

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Oct 15, 2003 5:52:19 AM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Thank you very much, it's very useful.

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Oct 16, 2003 12:35:28 AM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Quote:
You make one vital mistake: you think that the US motronic software is the same as for ROW or Germany.

I believe your mistake is overestimating how much I'm thinking.

I wasn't thinking at all, just quoting from the owners manual. Likewise the photo below of my gas filler flap didn't take much thinking either.

It occurs to me that we can be discussing many things when we talk about octane and various octane ratings. I do see your point about the rating numbers you quote and the variation in ECU programming. In this case we are discussing the absolute octane value of two fuels; that available in the US and that in Germany. We might also discuss differences in how different regulating authorities test octane values or how different testing methodologies (e.g. RON and AKI) result in different rating numbers. Depending on which discussion we are having, we might come up with different numbers for the comparisons.

One thing is for certain, the topic of octane ratings is a can of worms.

I did find a website that has some interesting reading on the subject: web page. The reading is a little dry but informative.

It sounds like you have done a bit of research on this yourself so I have no reason to doubt your information. I also think the information from the owners manual is interesting because it differs with the filler lid. The owners manual says minimum recommended octane is 95 RON/90 AKI while the filler lid says 95 RON/91 AKI (R+M/2).

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Crown

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New exhaust pipes.

New TAILpipe tips

Re: New exhaust pipes.

Re: New exhaust pipes.

Re: New TAILpipe tips

Jabba, is that 98RON, or 98(average)

Re: Jabba, is that 98RON, or 98(average)

It's labeled on the pump.

Re: It's labeled on the pump.

The 3" S-pipes cost me just under $300...

Re: Jabba, is that 98RON, or 98(average)

I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

BC, now GM, too, says your numbers are wrong.

Re: BC, now GM, too, says your numbers are wrong.

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

Re: I disagree, RC. I think your US...

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